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Slipperychicken
2013-08-07, 04:32 PM
Between their incredible flight-speed, ranged attacks, and skirmish ability, it seems to me like dragons are much better-suited for life aboveground. Being in the confines of a cave only seems to negate these natural strengths and make them easy to hit with melee weapons. Most of them don't even have burrow speeds, so they're pretty much boned if an overwhelming opponent enters the cave, or if a burrowing opponent hit-and-runs them to death.

I know they want to defend their treasure, but wouldn't that be more easily accomplished by stashing it high on a mountain, which would be more easily defended via hit-and-run attacks on invaders, and from which the dragon can still flee if necessary?

saxavarius
2013-08-07, 04:39 PM
Quiet you fool! You'll give people ideas!

But seriously it's a trope. Makes no real sense, but darnit we want a dragon at the end of our dungeon!

Mordar
2013-08-07, 04:50 PM
Between their incredible flight-speed, ranged attacks, and skirmish ability, it seems to me like dragons are much better-suited for life aboveground. Being in the confines of a cave only seems to negate these natural strengths and make them easy to hit with melee weapons. Most of them don't even have burrow speeds, so they're pretty much boned if an overwhelming opponent enters the cave, or if a burrowing opponent hit-and-runs them to death.

I know they want to defend their treasure, but wouldn't that be more easily accomplished by stashing it high on a mountain, which would be more easily defended via hit-and-run attacks on invaders, and from which the dragon can still flee if necessary?

They live in dungeons and bait their lairs with treasure because their preferred meal is "Adventurer Tartar" and adventurers are known to frequent dungeons more than any other locale. Sure, the occasional adventuring party might swing by an isolated mountaintop or inaccessible swamp, but they are much too few and far between.

The "guarding the horde" thing is just propaganda put out by the wyrms to draw more kibbles to the lair. Plus you must remember where all that wonderful loot comes from...the meals are delivered and come with tips!

:smallbiggrin:

- M

Corvus
2013-08-07, 04:50 PM
Its the way they were in legends - it may be a matter of the stats not refleting the legends.

Its hard to carry all the gold around so they needed a lair. And it doesn't matter where the lair is - adventurers will get there. Don't forget, adventurers are the only natural predator of dragons. Above ground, in cave, in flight, it doesn't matter, they know ever trick in the book to kill dragons. When out hunting, dragosn do rely on those tricks to ravage villages etc. It is a different matter when they are being hunted.

Weltall_BR
2013-08-07, 04:52 PM
Paraphrasing something I have read around here: because Fafnir did, Beowulf's unnamed dragon did and Smaug did :smallsmile: Because that is just what dragons do. They are giant skimpy lizards who sleep in their lairs guarding their hoard until someone breaks in or pisses them enough to make them leave it and completely burn everyone in an area of 100 miles around them until they have indulged their rage.

Thrudd
2013-08-07, 04:57 PM
Maybe dragons used to live wherever they wanted, but they have been driven into hiding by civilization. Or they pick places that are hidden and out of the way to hide their treasure. It would be a shame if a battalion of crossbow wielding soldiers was able to follow them home and kill them. But if there's a maze full of other dangerous creatures and traps they have to pass through on the way to get you, probably only a couple of them will even make it to the lair.

Sith_Happens
2013-08-07, 05:19 PM
Also, just because you live in a cave doesn't mean it can't be a cave with lots of easy escape routes.

Terraoblivion
2013-08-07, 05:38 PM
Also, if the primary thing they're trying to guard their hoard against is other dragons, going somewhere that negates the natural strength of dragons while giving them a home field advantage makes sense.

Pokonic
2013-08-07, 05:44 PM
Chromatic one's might do it because they have a bunch of evil minions running around, and according to the monster manual anything that lives below ground has a decent chance to be in the shallow end of the alignment pool. Depending on the color, it's entirely possible for a dungeon to fall in there choice home listings. Black dragons might lurk in a big old cavern because it works with the whole "causing darkness" ability they have, White dragons might do it to make there ice-making abilities work better, with the enclosed enviromants, and so on and so on. It's all a natural extention of making a lair, really. What's a better lair than a place like a dungeon filled with monsters?

On that note, a dragon of decent age would never really expect an overwhelming threat to attack them, on virtue of them being a dragon. Besides, confronting a dragon in it's lair, presumably filled with traps and servants and, futhermore, the dragon itself, should be a hard encounter if done properly. That's why the whole image of heros going in to slay the dragon is such a statisfiing one.

DeltaEmil
2013-08-07, 06:10 PM
A dragon's most dangerous enemy is another dragon.

Living above ground means being food for another bigger dragon. Having your treasure in the open high in the mountains means another dragon will steal it easily while you're away. Living above ground means being attacked from all sides by a team of dragons that want to take you down and then divide your territory.

A dragon should only go outside of a dungeon/it's heavily defended and trapped cave lair for food, or a short raid for treasure, or when it is necessary to mate.

And woe befalls the dragon, if its rival dragon teams up with expendable but plentiful mortal wannabe-dragonslayers that know all the dragon's weaknesses, schedule, and behavior thanks to the rival, who bribed the wannabe-dragonslayers, or tricked them into doing its dirty work. A weakened dragon is then easier pray for the rival dragon. If the mortals still manage to kill off the dragon by themselves, that's also good for the rival dragon. Now it can either finish off the weakened dragonslayers, or get a share of the dead dragon's hoard, or simply take the dead dragon's territory for its own, which is still very lucrative, if the dragon was paranoid enough and had several hoards.

Rhynn
2013-08-07, 06:24 PM
Dragons don't/shouldn't live in dungeons by choice, they live in lairs. A lair can be a dungeon, or adjacent to a dungeon, but usually the parts the dragon lives in are dragon lair first and foremost. Onysablet's lair in DL1 has immediate access to open air by the well, IIRC; the one dragon in D&D I can think of who lives in and cannot easily get out of a dungeon is the blue dragon in the Undermountain who's trapped in a single chamber by Halaster's magic tricks.

A dragon's lair should be easily defensible - that's why the dragon lairs somewhere - and probably genuinely hard to enter, with good exits and advantageous terrain. If your dragon is easier to defeat in its lair, you've built a horrible lair and are not doing justice to the dragon. (Unless, of course, this isn't D&D and your dragons are, for instance, big and dangerous animals, but not very smart.)

Also, ultimately: because they did in the stories.

IW Judicator
2013-08-07, 08:14 PM
Its a known fact that dragons love ketchup (because adventurers are crunchy and good with it). By extension, most dragons would want to make a ketchup mine their home. However, most of those have already either been claimed by older, more powerful dragons or have long since had their ketchup stores run dry. Thus, most dragons make due with the closest reasonable approximation: a dungeon. :smallbiggrin:

Slipperychicken
2013-08-07, 08:20 PM
Dragons don't/shouldn't live in dungeons by choice, they live in lairs.

By "dungeon" I meant "cramped underground cavelike structure thing".

Also, it's mostly that I've rarely seen them encountered outdoors.

Lord Raziere
2013-08-07, 08:35 PM
from a dragon:
"hey do you think I WANT to live here, mortal? no, I could be in a big freaking aerie or peak or something like that, all nest cozily up amongst the freezing winds! get a good spot of fresh and a view of the mountains and of course a good view of the prey like big herds of stuff.

but then you jerks came along and ruined it because we were too big in and in the open and "dangerous" so you started sending adventurers after us to kill us. the reason we hide in caves, is because you guys keep coming after us to kill us! We don't want that to happen! so by all means, go away either put up and start fighting like the attackers you are, or promise to not kill me and help me find a good peak or summit. I don't even hunt humans, its stupid to do so, wild animals are more vulnerable, have more meat and are more tasty, and often don't have weapons like those you wield right now."

Sidmen
2013-08-07, 08:46 PM
It largely depends on the version of Dragonkind that exists in your setting.

For the most part, though, I've always seen dragons spoken of as sedentary creatures. Flying is HARD and takes a lot of energy, especially when you're old and big. So you want to sit around, maybe sleep for a century or two, and you don't want to be pestered by those mayfly mortals when you do it.

So what do you do?

Why not check out this ancient fortress that you saw being built when you were young - its got a swanky cave down there with easy access to a kobold cult you can subvert. And an old underground temple with some priests you can get to make sure the mortals in the surrounding countryside don't bother you.

Drachasor
2013-08-07, 10:01 PM
By "dungeon" I meant "cramped underground cavelike structure thing".

Also, it's mostly that I've rarely seen them encountered outdoors.

Well, that's more like a home or den. It provides shelter and a place to store valuables safely. That doesn't mean they spend all their time there or even most of their waking hours.

1337 b4k4
2013-08-07, 10:13 PM
Because dragons are adult female dwarves. No seriously. Now I can't take credit for this idea but for the life of me I can't find the source, if anyone has it please let me know.

The basic gist of it goes like this:

Dwarves love mining, and they love gold and jewels. Female dwarves especially love both gold and jewels so when a male dwarves seek to court a female, they mine for wonderous splendors. The dig great caverns and halls with 10 foot corridors and massive rooms filled with riches and wonders beyond imagination. And one of these great halls they build as the new home for their bride to be. And this hall in particular they fill with treasure, endlessly questing to bring sir love the greatest and brightest treasures in the land. But there is a flaw, as a female dwarf gets older, her body begins to change and soon she transforms into a dragon, and the great halls that were once her grand home and palace instead become her cage, leaving her trapped in her lair while her mate continues his quests to far lands for treasure. This incidentally is why you also almost never see female dwarves, it's a deep and dark dwarven secret.

I'll be honest, that description doesn't do the original write up I read justice, but it's definitely a fun little bit of flavor and myth.

Rhynn
2013-08-07, 10:32 PM
By "dungeon" I meant "cramped underground cavelike structure thing".

Also, it's mostly that I've rarely seen them encountered outdoors.

That's mostly dragons being run badly. The first dragon I used in D&D 3.0 was a red dragon that the PCs annoyed. It killed half the party strafing them from maximum distance above them as they scrambled for cover.

I think killing a dragon in its lair should be possible, but only with a terrifying, deadly fight - unless the PCs are really clever. Dragonslayer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragonslayer) and Vermithraxus Pejorative (and Volsungasaga/Nibelungenlied/Ring of the Nibelungs, of course) is a great example, IMO. Mostly, D&D-style dragons should be smart enough to make sure they have easy exits from their lairs, and a giant defensive advantage.

Of course, some dragons are, indeed, wyrms - wingless, even legless monsters.

Slipperychicken
2013-08-07, 10:48 PM
Mostly, D&D-style dragons should be smart enough to make sure they have easy exits from their lairs, and a giant defensive advantage.

It says something about your species when a newborn is, on average, as intelligent as a fully-grown human.

Sir_Thaddeus
2013-08-07, 10:57 PM
(spoiled for length)

Because dragons are adult female dwarves. No seriously. Now I can't take credit for this idea but for the life of me I can't find the source, if anyone has it please let me know.

The basic gist of it goes like this:

Dwarves love mining, and they love gold and jewels. Female dwarves especially love both gold and jewels so when a male dwarves seek to court a female, they mine for wonderous splendors. The dig great caverns and halls with 10 foot corridors and massive rooms filled with riches and wonders beyond imagination. And one of these great halls they build as the new home for their bride to be. And this hall in particular they fill with treasure, endlessly questing to bring sir love the greatest and brightest treasures in the land. But there is a flaw, as a female dwarf gets older, her body begins to change and soon she transforms into a dragon, and the great halls that were once her grand home and palace instead become her cage, leaving her trapped in her lair while her mate continues his quests to far lands for treasure. This incidentally is why you also almost never see female dwarves, it's a deep and dark dwarven secret.

I'll be honest, that description doesn't do the original write up I read justice, but it's definitely a fun little bit of flavor and myth.

This. Is. Awesome. I am totally incorporating this into the next campaign I run.

With regards to the actual topic, I would like to second the people who cite older sources that D&D draws from as the originators of the idea. It may not make sense, but this is a game that draws heavily on tradition.

Slipperychicken
2013-08-07, 11:03 PM
But there is a flaw, as a female dwarf gets older, her body begins to change and soon she transforms into a dragon, and the great halls that were once her grand home and palace instead become her cage, leaving her trapped in her lair while her mate continues his quests to far lands for treasure.

Even if it isn't setting canon, that sounds like an amazing curse to throw down on a dwarf who loves his wife above all else.

BWR
2013-08-08, 01:49 AM
Dragons don't/shouldn't live in dungeons by choice, they live in lairs. A lair can be a dungeon, or adjacent to a dungeon, but usually the parts the dragon lives in are dragon lair first and foremost. Onysablet's lair in DL1 has immediate access to open air by the well, IIRC; the one dragon in D&D I can think of who lives in and cannot easily get out of a dungeon is the blue dragon in the Undermountain who's trapped in a single chamber by Halaster's magic tricks.

A dragon's lair should be easily defensible - that's why the dragon lairs somewhere - and probably genuinely hard to enter, with good exits and advantageous terrain. If your dragon is easier to defeat in its lair, you've built a horrible lair and are not doing justice to the dragon. (Unless, of course, this isn't D&D and your dragons are, for instance, big and dangerous animals, but not very smart.)

Also, ultimately: because they did in the stories.

What he said.

As a player I've never encountered dragons just holed up in a cramped space waiting to be killed by passing strangers. They were all encountered fully prepared for a fight, often ambushing us.

As a DM I've run only a few dragons (5, IIRC). Of those, only 1 was encountered in an actual dungeon (abandoned dwarf fortress, of course). That was a young green dragon who had just laid claim to some territory and was in the process of solidifying its control over the area when those pesky adventurers showed up, ignored its entirely reasonable offer of working form him and killed him (not before he felled 3/4 of the party). The rest were encountered out in the open where they could use their flight, speed and breath/spells to the fullest.

And all those dragons were from scripted adventure or adventure seeds.

Hyena
2013-08-08, 03:17 AM
Because small tunnels with nowhere to run except backwards and fire breath mix well.

Yondu
2013-08-08, 03:31 AM
Because if they live outside, they will be too difficult to kill, an airborne dragon is a perfect killing machine, unstoppable, except by a fully prepared war party....
And a RPG is a game so creators has made an horror ( a 50 yards fire breathing flying armored lizard .... imagine a giant T-REX covered with crocodile skin with wings spittting white phosporous....erkkkkh) and they choose to find a way to lessen their mistake, so it has to be in a small place to avoir TPK al the time

hymer
2013-08-08, 03:48 AM
It seems to me that having a big hoard of treasure sort of requires that you don't have it lying about in the open. People could come from any direction and just take your stuff and walk off with it again in any direction. Not to mention exposure to the elements.
No, it's better to keep it in an underground lair of some sort, where you can control the environment a little and keep locks, traps and guard on the entrance. Incidentally, this also makes a spiffy place to spend the night and avoid some attempts to kill you in your sleep.
Preferably, you'll do your fighting in the open against small groups, but bottlenecks are important to deal with armies, and lairs are natural bottlenecks.

At least, it seems to make no less sense to me than so many other things. :)

valadil
2013-08-08, 08:23 AM
All this is making me want to run a game with a dragon who is trying to acquire the world's largest bag of holding, so he has somewhere to stash his hoard without living in a cave.

GungHo
2013-08-08, 08:27 AM
Also, it's mostly that I've rarely seen them encountered outdoors.
Why not? All that treasure has to come from somewhere, and it's not like you can trust goblins to bring you a bunch of cows.

MukkTB
2013-08-08, 08:34 AM
I've mostly seen Dragons outside. The few times I've seen one in a cave, the cave's structure was such that it didn't hamper the Dragon. Large spaces, easy escape routes, traps, ect.

Dovius
2013-08-08, 10:07 AM
I'd say that it's a pretty safe bet for a Dragon to make his lair in a dungeon/cave, just for a simple advantage:

Outside, while dragons certainly will have the advantage in mobility, the adventurers will be able to have freedom of movement that will help them evade their attacks.

Meanwhile, if the Dragon chooses a proper dungeon/cave, the adventurers will be nice enough to come into it's personal lair through the only entrance accessible to them, at which point the dragon will hose down the 10-15 feet wide entrance with a gargantuan blast of his/her native element, taking out half the party by blasting the lot of them while they're bottlenecking themselves close together.

Bonus points if the dragon's waiting for this exact situation by hanging on the wall over said entrance, and if he/she has prepared an escape route (hole in the ceiling too high for the adventurers to reach both from the in and outside of the building).

LibraryOgre
2013-08-08, 10:26 AM
1) Defense against other dragons, especially while napping. An open aerie is an open invitation.

2) Defense against thieves. In an open aerie, three guys with fly spells and a portable hole can rob you blind. In a dungeon, they have to get to you.

3) Symbiotic organisms. A whole bunch of things live near dragons, trading relative safety for occasionally being eaten or assaulted by adventurers. See point 2.

4) Comfort. A cave is a constant temperature... usually cool, but you can go near volcanic vents for real heat. It is also comfortingly close and dark, if you like that sort of thing... and if you're raising dragonlings, it might be just the thing.

Nerd-o-rama
2013-08-08, 10:37 AM
Dragons want a roof over their heads just as much as any sedentary creature. Enclosed lairs are also more defensible than you give them credit - the dragon can take advantage of narrow passages to funnel enemies into groups to breath weapon/pit trap/Forbiddance spell, or avoid getting surrounded and backstabbed/Shivering Touched. It's also easier to lock up your hoard if there's only one entrance to it.

Smart dragons build their lairs defensibly and comfortably, but with multiple entrances/exits that are only available to beings with their specific special movement (large tunnels that can only be accessed with flight, sheer icy cliffs, underwater passages, etc. Only an idiot or a Good dragon that expects a lot of guests would put in a nice level ground-level entrance that adventurers can just stroll into.

JHShadon
2013-08-08, 10:57 AM
I just had the idea of a Dragon Real Estate Agent, he would help other dragons find the perfect lair for them for a modest fee, and if he's the backstabbing sort of evil he could sell the locations of dragons to adventurers.

Nerd-o-rama
2013-08-08, 11:10 AM
That's a pretty cool idea, but depending on the setting and how you fluff (scale?) your dragons, they might be too paranoid/isolationist/arrogant to cooperate like that.

After all, I always figured the reason dragons aren't ruling the dominant empires of every campaign setting is that they're almost as rare and bad at cooperating as stereotypical wizards are. Eberron's an exception, but even there most of the dragons formed their own enlightened isolationist civilization. (Argonessen totally has dragon real estate agents though. Or at least they do now in my Eberron games)

Mando Knight
2013-08-08, 11:33 AM
Also, just because you live in a cave doesn't mean it can't be a cave with lots of easy escape routes.

In 4e's Draconomicon I, they give several lairs... the ones for older dragons are massive, and one has criss-crossing tunnels and encounter notes that have the dragon zipping in and out of the battlefield every few rounds to support its minions.

Jay R
2013-08-08, 12:57 PM
Between their incredible flight-speed, ranged attacks, and skirmish ability, it seems to me like dragons are much better-suited for life aboveground. Being in the confines of a cave only seems to negate these natural strengths and make them easy to hit with melee weapons. Most of them don't even have burrow speeds, so they're pretty much boned if an overwhelming opponent enters the cave, or if a burrowing opponent hit-and-runs them to death.

I know they want to defend their treasure, but wouldn't that be more easily accomplished by stashing it high on a mountain, which would be more easily defended via hit-and-run attacks on invaders, and from which the dragon can still flee if necessary?

Yes, they fight better in the air. Any flier does. But that's not where they sleep.

If you catch dragons in their lair, you have a huge advantage, just as you do if you are attacking jet planes when they're on the ground. Don't confuse someone's bed with his or her favorite battlefield.

DeltaEmil
2013-08-08, 01:11 PM
Yes, they fight better in the air. Any flier does. But that's not where they sleep.

If you catch dragons in their lair, you have a huge advantage, just as you do if you are attacking jet planes when they're on the ground. Don't confuse someone's bed with his or her favorite battlefield.Yes. Dragons are very impressive in the air. Or in space.

But at this moment, they are, on the ground. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR7n4Gg-_ac&t=1m55s)

JennTora
2013-08-08, 02:14 PM
Most dragons I've used in games were at the top of mountains with fortresses barring the only land path with magical traps. Often the last room leading to the summit where the dragon is a very small narrow corridor. So if adventurers decide to be all loud and stupid, they can expect to be surprised by a sudden line/cone of whatever.

If it's a pretty old dragon, it's also likely to have some sort of magical trap for anything larger than an eagle that tries to fly over the fortress excluding itself.

TheThan
2013-08-08, 02:45 PM
I’ve always found it amusing myself. The dragons being stuck in tiny rooms they can’t possibly fit in. I mean when you’ve got a colossal dragon, that’s got a space of 30ft or more, and natural reach of 20 or more and you cram him in a ten by ten room, that’s gotta be uncomfortable for the dragon. No wonder why they’re so grumpy.
I’ve always had this image of the PCs opening a door, the door swings outward and the pcs stare straight into the eye of a colossal dragon., in fact, he’s so big that his eye is being pressed up against the door, and he’s not happy about that.

Nerd-o-rama
2013-08-08, 04:28 PM
Also, I'm pretty sure no dragon actually fights in his lair by choice. That's where all their stuff is, and dragons love their material possessions the way most creatures love their children (it's kind of the one thing in common between every dragon myth between Mesopotamia and the Atlantic Ocean). Dragons fight in their lair when they're cornered, and they usually fight like cornered animals, but with genius level intelligence and a paranoid streak a mile wide when choosing/building their homes. A dragon fights in his lair because the adventurers came to kill him or steal his ****, and they fight well if they're smart ones.

Avnomke
2013-08-09, 05:12 PM
All this is making me want to run a game with a dragon who is trying to acquire the world's largest bag of holding, so he has somewhere to stash his hoard without living in a cave.

The secret is to have it fill hundreds of bags of holding, then put those inside a bag of holding.

Frozen_Feet
2013-08-09, 05:37 PM
Why do birds build nests? To house their eggs and offspring, of course! The thought that a dragon's lair is its greatest fortress is only half true. Sure, any lair is going to be heavily protected, but that's because the dragon (and its possession) are at their most vulnerable there! Being ambushed in their lair is the worst scenario for any dragon. They are at their strongest out in the open and flying.

I even did math for this, using numbers from my own preferred system (LotFP). The only time dragon is weaker outside than in its lair, is when there's an army equipped with heavy crossbows or other strong ranged weapons waiting for it and essentially utilizing modern-day military protocol against a flying threat.

If dragons acted like most real flyers do, a lair would be either abandoned or changed between nestings; when there are no eggs or young to take care of, why stay in such a vulnerable place? But, apparently dragons are too mesmerized by concept of material wealth to do that. In such case, however, it is very much logical to make your treasure vault safe against intruders, and hire loyal underlings to guard it while you're out. Or alternatively, to bring you food while you sit on top of your treasures, jealously guarding them from any filthy hands.

Slipperychicken
2013-08-09, 06:36 PM
If dragons acted like most real flyers do, a lair would be either abandoned or changed between nestings; when there are no eggs or young to take care of, why stay in such a vulnerable place? But, apparently dragons are too mesmerized by concept of material wealth to do that. In such case

Dragons are known to move their hoards on occasion. This is why the Hoard Gullet spell (Sorc/Wiz 1, Draconomicon) exists.

Lorsa
2013-08-10, 08:25 AM
Dragons live in dungeons because dungeons, in the D&D sense, is defined as the place where dragons live.

Eric Tolle
2013-08-11, 05:28 PM
Who says a dragon's underground lair has to be small?

http:// http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majlis_al_Jinn

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/01/largest-cave/jenkins-text (http://ngm.natioyt?nalgeographic.com/2011/01/largest-cave/jenkins-text)
jut.
See if I were a dragon, I'd have a cave that can only be entered by flying down a hundred yard sinkhole, whose floor is a jumble of house-sized boulders, abd maybe has a river running through it, with an island that's where I sleep. Big enough for me to fly in, rugged enough that it's easy to isolate a slow-moving group. That way I'd only have to worry about those adventurers powerful enough to fly.

Jay R
2013-08-12, 09:59 AM
Imagine a cavern whose end is just big enough for a dragon to turn around in. He enters, reaches the end, turns around, and now his claws, teeth and breath are all aimed at the only way in.