Spells with totally inappropriate levels

[fishyfishyfishy]

This just boggles my mind, but there are dozens of spells with levels that are completely under or over powered compared to other spells of the same level.

Example: Polar Ray (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polarRay.htm). HOW IS THIS AN 8TH LEVEL SPELL! There is nothing about it that seems extraordinary enough to warrant such a high slot. This spell could easily be lowered down to 4th level (one level higher than fireball and lightning bolt to justify the higher damage cap) without upsetting game balance in the least.

On the opposite end we have things Glitterdust, Grease and Stinking Cloud. All are very powerful for their level and could be raised by +1.

I remember seeing a video of an interview with Mike Mearls from WotC a while back, shortly after the first D&D Next playtest package came out, and he said something along the lines of "We want to make Fireball the coolest and best Wizard spell ever"... Are they really that stupid?

D&D magic system is bonkers and I don't think they'll ever get it right.

[Eurus]

I just recently noticed the Wu Jen spell Cloud Chariot. Imagine a worse version of Wind Walk that only lasts for about ten minutes, so it only goes about 100 miles total... and it's an 8th level spell. You could make it third level easy, and it'd still be a pretty situational pick.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Wow that is absolute rubbish. This drives me crazy as a DM and a player.

[NeoPhoenix0]

If you lower polar ray to forth level you need to lower the damage cap to 10d6. The damage cap is the main thing making it a 8th level spell.

As far as too powerful for their level, I put forth benign transposition and ray of stupidity.

Benign transposition has ridiculous range for a level 1 teleport spell. Combine it with a raven familiar who speaks one of you languages from level 1 and you have cheap dimension door from level (as soon as you have enough gold to summon your familiar). compare with dimension hop to see overpoweredness.

Ray of stupidity is a level 2 ray spell with no save that does 1d4+1 int damage. From that point on all animals and a huge amount of magical beasts become useless against the mage. Just one ray and he can coup de grace them to death.

[Lightlawbliss]

Tenser’s Transformation

6th lvl spell with an rather expensive material component

gives effects able to be mostly gained (with additional bonuses besides) by 4 2nd lvl spells... and you loose casting

edit: almost forgot, the 2nd lvl spells have longer durations too. The short duration is a blessing though with how bad it is.

[Fax Celestis]

If you lower polar ray to forth level you need to lower the damage cap to 10d6. The damage cap is the main thing making it a 8th level spell.

Chain lightning and delayed blast fireball both deal basically equivalent damage to multiple targets at two levels lower (on average, less damage, sure, until you realize that both have better range than polar ray and can hit multiple targets). The only thing that polar ray really has going for it is its touch-attack no-save, which you can do with a variety of other spells for levels lower.

[olentu]

If you lower polar ray to forth level you need to lower the damage cap to 10d6. The damage cap is the main thing making it a 8th level spell.

10d6 seems really rather low. As a comparison the orb spells have a 15d6 cap, ignore SR and have a rider effect at 4th level.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Chain lightning and delayed blast fireball both deal basically equivalent damage to multiple targets at two levels lower (on average, less damage, sure, until you realize that both have better range than polar ray and can hit multiple targets). The only thing that polar ray really has going for it is its touch-attack no-save, which you can do with a variety of other spells for levels lower.

This is true but the designers almost never break there damage cap by level list for spells. This is why a lot of ray blasty spells suck.

Edit: and sorry but the proper damage cap for a 4th level spell is 15d6. My bad.

[Yogibear41]

I don't think Benign Transposition is too powerful, it is definently a good spell though. I think Dimension hop maybe just too bad, althought it does allow you to teleport something off the side of a cliff, its situational at best.


Agree on ray of stupidity though, I think its awesome told a wizard about it in the game I play in to use agianst some dinos and well, DM just said there is a rule that prevents spells like that from lowering a creatures stat lower than 1. I didn't argue :smallsmile:

[Eurus]

You can also probably get more total damage out of maximizing a lower-level spell or something. Heck, maximize a cone of cold and do slightly more damage even at CL 25 (and quite a bit more damage at anything less) to a massive area.

However, Polar Ray isn't something that jumps out at me as infuriatingly bad. It's just run-of-the-mill bad. How about Mass Hold Monster? A ninth level slot that paralyzes multiple creatures sounds great... but it's mind-affecting, only works within a 30 foot area (not 30-foot radius, just 30 feet), and they get a save every round to break free. This, at a level where you can flat-out kill someone (or do even worse to them) five and a half different ways. I don't think I've ever seen this one used.

[NeoPhoenix0]

I don't think Benign Transposition is too powerful, it is definently a good spell thought. I think Dimension hop maybe just too bad, althought it does allow you to teleport something off the side of a cliff, its situational at best.

Your right, Dimension hop is a bad spell. A better comparison spell is prabably dimension leap from magic of eberron.

[Barsoom]

Agree on ray of stupidity though, I think its awesome told a wizard about it in the game I play in to use agianst some dinos and well, DM just said there is a rule that prevents spells like that from lowering a creatures stat lower than 1. I didn't argue :smallsmile:Many similar spells have a "to a minimum of 1" clause, but this one doesn't ...

[nedz]

Agree on ray of stupidity though, I think its awesome told a wizard about it in the game I play in to use agianst some dinos and well, DM just said there is a rule that prevents spells like that from lowering a creatures stat lower than 1. I didn't argue :smallsmile:

That's Ray of Enfeeblement Stupid.

RoS does damage not a penalty, still it's a simple fix.


How about Weird. It's just Phantasmal Killer, mass — at 9th level !
Not that PK is very good in the first place.

I once ran a monster which had this as an option — A tree of some kind (the one with the 75 mile radius fear effect1) — I just used it's other SLAs. Expecting high level PCs to roll two '1's is a bit pointless.

1 Fixed in errata

[Devronq]

Many similar spells have a "to a minimum of 1" clause, but this one doesn't ...

Although i do agree that is a very fair house rule i use it as well and i highly suggest doing so to avoid the overpoweredness of these types of spells.

Also heres my two choices

scorching ray and splinter bolt
Most other level 2 spells deal far less damage, heck most level 3 spells do less damage that this as well. Maybe they thought it was balance because you need to hit three times but id personal rather have that then a reflex save. Also you can get a critical hit with the spell because it requires an attack roll and if your a rouge you can sneak attack 3 times with the spell.

Streamers lv.5
If you don't know what this is look it up. Possibly the only really broken blasting spell. Heck if this was lv.9 id still be like holy wow that's amazing. 20d10 damage every time you take an action ya that's defiantly more than a lv.5 slot.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Although i do agree that is a very fair house rule i use it as well and i highly suggest doing so to avoid the overpoweredness of these types of spells.

Also heres my two choices

scorching ray and splinter bolt
Most other level 2 spells deal far less damage, heck most level 3 spells do less damage that this as well. Maybe they thought it was balance because you need to hit three times but id personal rather have that then a reflex save. Also you can get a critical hit with the spell because it requires an attack roll and if your a rouge you can sneak attack 3 times with the spell.

Streamers lv.5
If you don't know what this is look it up. Possibly the only really broken blasting spell. Heck if this was lv.9 id still be like holy wow that's amazing. 20d10 damage every time you take an action ya that's defiantly more than a lv.5 slot.

Wow, streamers is OP more powerful than most blaster spells.

At least since the streamers don't have strength score the touch attack is unmodified by strength bonus (it says using the casters BAB but doesn't say anything about strength). However that may be a benefit to many casters who completely dump strength.

[sleepyphoenixx]

scorching ray and splinter bolt
Most other level 2 spells deal far less damage, heck most level 3 spells do less damage that this as well. Maybe they thought it was balance because you need to hit three times but id personal rather have that then a reflex save. Also you can get a critical hit with the spell because it requires an attack roll and if your a rouge you can sneak attack 3 times with the spell.


I'm pretty sure you generally can't get more than one sneak attack from a standard action. I think it was in Rules Compendium somewhere but i'm not sure.

Also, from the wording it's reasonable to rule that Streamers only procs once per streamer. That makes it still useful as an interrupt but not quite as ridiculous.

My picks:
Venomfire
Uncapped 1d6/level for 1 hour/level as a 3rd level spell, multiple times per round if you pick the right AC and choose the right wildshape.

Glibness
+30 to bluff from a second level spell? Why is sense motive even in the game?
Since there is nothing to counter it this spell makes bluff pretty much unbeatable with a minimum of effort at least until the high levels.

[NeoPhoenix0]

No the streamers persist until the end of the spell even if they make an attack.

Since the streamers shoot from your hand and enter the squares of the target, It might be reasonable to assume that the targets get attacks of opportunities.
This combined with the need for magical weapons to destroy them makes it much more of a threat to casters than melee characters. Especially melee characters with combat reflexes.

Edit: on glibness, what about zone of truth?
Although I suppose there are other uses for bluff and this spell also makes sense motive moot.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Edit: on glibness, what about zone of truth?


Zone of Truth is pretty limited. It allows a save, targets are automatically aware of it and it doesn't prevent you from bluffing, you just can't outright lie.
A "creative misinterpretation" would not be hindered at all by ZoT and with a +30 to bluff you should have no problems making it sound reasonable.
That's not even counting the build in "truth spell protection" that only leaves a 25% chance of ZoT working at all at equal CL.

The normal direct counter to bluff, sense motive, just doesn't have anything to catch up to that much of an advantage.
You can close the gap with a lot of investment but never really eliminate it. For the Bard it's just a single spell known.

[Endarire]

Based on what I see here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#sneakAttack), there is no restriction to the number of Sneak Attacks you can make. For example, if you could make a full attack as a standard action, then each of these attacks could apply Sneak Attack if the conditions for Sneak Attack were met.

This is also why Sneak Attack + Burning Blade work well for multi weapon attackers.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Based on what I see here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#sneakAttack), there is no restriction to the number of Sneak Attacks you can make. For example, if you could make a full attack as a standard action, then each of these attacks could apply Sneak Attack if the conditions for Sneak Attack were met.

This is also why Sneak Attack + Burning Blade work well for multi weapon attackers.

The rules compendium says on pg 42, that any action other than a full attack that uses multiple attacks such as scorching ray only applies precision damage on the first attack in the group.

Does this mean that sorcerer rogues don't want to get rapid metamagic?

[Arkusus]

I remember being surprised the first time I really read through Vampiric Touch. It's about the best spell I remember finding that can be put into a spell-storing weapon, but even without that, it is pretty great for a level 3 spell.

[Melcar]

Horrid Wilting was once a: "no cap 1d8 per casterlevel" (2nd ed) damage spell, then became a 1d8 (max 25d8) (3.0 ed) spell and is now a 20d6 (3.5). The damage cap has fallen so much, that it can hardly be said to be as strong as it was, and therefor to me should only be a level 6 spell.

[nedz]

The rules compendium says on pg 42, that any action other than a full attack that uses multiple attacks such as scorching ray only applies precision damage on the first attack in the group.

Does this mean that sorcerer rogues don't want to get rapid metamagic?
A full round casting is not the same as a full attack. The rule about Volley fire and sneak attack is in the Core rules somewhere, I will try to find it shortly.


I remember being surprised the first time I really read through Vampiric Touch. It's about the best spell I remember finding that can be put into a spell-storing weapon, but even without that, it is pretty great for a level 3 spell.

Vampiric Touch is very good, but it does require the caster to risk being in melee and then actually hit the target.

[DuncanMacleod]

Aren't the powers of the spells for their level supposed to be a bit screwy? If everything was "balanced" and equally powerful, you wouldn't have to think as much. I like the fact that a wizard has to spend time perusing the spells at each level and figure out which ones blow and which ones are good value. I still revise my views every now and then and realize I have misjudged a spell or missed a lovely synergy with something else.

[Sr.medusa]

Blight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blight.htm) is the worst for me. A touch spell (yipii), only afects plants (double yipii), fortitude half (triple yipii, especialy when plants have good fortitude and lots of HD), and, on top of that, do mediocre damage. But eh, it kills automaticly ONE non-creature plant. Frankly... if it'll move to 1st level, still be worthless.

[nedz]

Aren't the powers of the spells for their level supposed to be a bit screwy? If everything was "balanced" and equally powerful, you wouldn't have to think as much. I like the fact that a wizard has to spend time perusing the spells at each level and figure out which ones blow and which ones are good value. I still revise my views every now and then and realize I have misjudged a spell or missed a lovely synergy with something else.

Possibly, but what actually happens is that the OP spells get banned/nerfed and no one bothers with the crap ones to the extent that they may as well not have been printed.

[Mnemnosyne]

This is true but the designers almost never break there damage cap by level list for spells. This is why a lot of ray blasty spells suck.

Edit: and sorry but the proper damage cap for a 4th level spell is 15d6. My bad.I'm confused as to how this is an argument in favor of keeping the damage cap. It seems to me it's an argument in favor of discarding the level-based cap and adjudicating it case-by-case, because if a lot of spells suck because of it...perhaps doing it that way is a bad idea.

On the topic of Glibness: Zone of truth does not counter it - indeed, it explicitly counters spells that would detect or prevent lies, unless the spell's caster succeeds on a CL check.

[ericgrau]

scorching ray and splinter bolt
Most other level 2 spells deal far less damage, heck most level 3 spells do less damage that this as well. Maybe they thought it was balance because you need to hit three times but id personal rather have that then a reflex save.
1 target << multiple targets. And at the time scorching ray is first available your touch attacks can frequently miss so I prefer flaming sphere. Later when your rays can hit more often, I usually prefer fireball. Except when there is only 1 target to attack and I can't do something more efficient like hasting allies (who do more single target damage), greater invisibling the rogue (ditto), or debuffing the foe. It's an ok spell but single target attack spells are usually the one thing a mage wants to avoid and pass off to mundanes who do it better. Though that's not always possible every turn.

For glibness it wouldn't make much difference if it were a +50 or if you auto-passed your bluffs. As long as you limit bluffing to misleading (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bluffing?s=t) and don't use one of the silly liberal interpretations which amount to mind control, and mind control is not the same as misleading, then there are limited things you can do with misleading. Don't ignore the skill's name when reading the skill's text.

Polar ray is a bit wow though. Dunno why it's an 8th. Core is really stingy with non-fire/electricity damage, and even electricity has area/targeting limits. Which is smart given resistances, but I digress. So maybe it could be 5th or 6th instead of 4th, but not 8th. Even with the damage at the full 25d6 cap it's worse than an 8th level area cold spell should be. It's only 1 target.

[Fax Celestis]

Based on what I see here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#sneakAttack), there is no restriction to the number of Sneak Attacks you can make. For example, if you could make a full attack as a standard action, then each of these attacks could apply Sneak Attack if the conditions for Sneak Attack were met.

This is also why Sneak Attack + Burning Blade work well for multi weapon attackers.

Volley-attacks (like Manyshot and scorching ray) only apply once, which is pretty stupid. The houserule we use around here is 'once per attack roll', which I feel is pretty fair.

[Darrin]

One of my pet peeves: delay poison should be a 1st level spell, and neutralize poison should be a 2nd level spell. PCs are more likely to run into poisonous vermin at lower levels, and poison is much more deadly at levels 1-4. At mid-range levels, most PCs have enough HPs they can take a couple poison hits and still be effective.

[sleepyphoenixx]

For glibness it wouldn't make much difference if it were a +50 or if you auto-passed your bluffs. As long as you limit bluffing to misleading (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bluffing?s=t) and don't use one of the silly liberal interpretations which amount to mind control, and mind control is not the same as misleading, then there are limited things you can do with misleading. Don't ignore the skill's name when reading the skill's text.

It's not mind control so it's okay? really? Simply going by the examples in the PHB a +30 to bluff is more than enough to cancel the DC increase for telling a bluff that is "way out there; it’s almost too incredible to consider".
You can tell people the sky is red and they're just under an illusion that makes it look blue and they will likely believe you unless they seriously optimize sense motive.
Need to get into a castle? Tell the guards a story about how you're the new butler/maid and they'll believe you.
Got caught? No problem, just make something up.

If your DM plays social interactions by the rules it's may not quite be mind control but it might as well be with the stuff you can get people to believe.
Yes, most DMs houserule social stuff if they use those skills at all but by RAW it's almost as broken as diplomancy while requiring almost no effort... just cast a spell.
It even takes care of the spells that could reasonably be expected to counter it.

[Lightlawbliss]

One of my pet peeves: delay poison should be a 1st level spell, and neutralize poison should be a 2nd level spell. PCs are more likely to run into poisonous vermin at lower levels, and poison is much more deadly at levels 1-4. At mid-range levels, most PCs have enough HPs they can take a couple poison hits and still be effective.

I'm ok with neutralize as a 4th, complete poison immunity can be rather powerful, but agree with you that delay poison should be a 1st. A lesser version of neutralize poison that just removes currently active ones instantaneously wouldn't be a bad addition imo.

[mikalife1]

Volley-attacks (like Manyshot and scorching ray) only apply once, which is pretty stupid. The houserule we use around here is 'once per attack roll', which I feel is pretty fair.
that house rule was the rule until RC came alone and CompPcsi'd:smallfurious: all 4* of the actually useful volley attacks by applying the rule from many shot to them even though it make no sense to do that:smallfrown:.
*greater many shot, manticores belt, multi target rays, splitting bow and scouts with any means of getting multiple attacks on a standard action though that i difficult with out using the above methods.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Greater Manyshot is safe because it states that you get sneak attack on all rolls "Specific Triumphs general"

[Deophaun]

If your DM plays social interactions by the rules it's may not quite be mind control but it might as well be with the stuff you can get people to believe.
If you play by the rules, the Bluff is only going to last for a single round, and a minute of interaction is going to require a DC 20 Sense Motive check to get around your +1000 Bluff skill to know that you should probably be held for questioning.

Plus, just because someone believes you doesn't mean they care.

All of this means that, since Bluff can be defeated by waiting it out, most guards are going to have training to slow down the fast talkers and not leave them alone.

[mikalife1]

Greater Manyshot is safe because it states that you get sneak attack on all rolls "Specific Triumphs general"

well yes but why did they think the RC rule was necessary in the first place since all the volley ability's that you cant used precision damage with already say that.

[Gigas Breaker]

Not spells but White Raven Tactics and Iron Heart Surge are level three maneuvers and also two of the most powerful maneuvers in the book.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Spells like Scorching Ray for example. And that the Rules Compendium was explicitely released to have all the rules of the game in a generally accessible book.

[Tathum]

Brutal Seething Surge

A 3rd level spell that gives you your caster level in touch attacks that do 1d8+caster level in acid damage and daze the target for 1d3 rounds if they don't make a save.

By itself its not to studly for a Wizard or Sorcerer, but for my Spellsword, its by far one of the best crowd control spells I have. Currently level 16 and whenever I go up against groups of monsters, I keep this one charged in my Greatsword at all times.

Split up my attacks, possibly use Wraithstrike, and I can typically keep up to 7 things on average from doing anything except standing there shaking their head while I can keep swinging away.

On the flip side, I use Chill Attack on single mobs. Even the strongest of studs, I drain their strength down pretty quick and keep them from doing any real physical damage.

[Yogibear41]

What book are those in?

[Fax Celestis]

that house rule was the rule until RC came alone and CompPcsi'd:smallfurious: all 4* of the actually useful volley attacks by applying the rule from many shot to them even though it make no sense to do that:smallfrown:.
*greater many shot, manticores belt, multi target rays, splitting bow and scouts with any means of getting multiple attacks on a standard action though that i difficult with out using the above methods.

No it wasn't. The FAQ answered volley attacks long before RC (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a).

[DR27]

Aren't the powers of the spells for their level supposed to be a bit screwy? If everything was "balanced" and equally powerful, you wouldn't have to think as much. I like the fact that a wizard has to spend time perusing the spells at each level and figure out which ones blow and which ones are good value. I still revise my views every now and then and realize I have misjudged a spell or missed a lovely synergy with something else.I bet you are the guy that defends bad Magic cards because they require skill to avoid.

No, it's poor editing/game design that placed spells in the wrong levels. I think the majority of players realize that the game would be more entertaining if spells within a specific level were roughly the same power level, and the skill in picking one was picking the correct spell for the situation, not the good ones from the bad.

On topic, I've always been kinda annoyed that Mass Bear's Endurance/Bull's Strength/Cat's Grace/Fox's Cunning/Eagle's Splendor/Owl's Wisdom are 6th level - while the single target versions are 2nd level, and chain spell is a +3 metamagic. I know you aren't supposed to use touch spells with chain and reach spell is +1, but that's not the point - the point is that the Mass versions of those spells should really be 5th level, the Mass Version of the spell should at least be better than all that metamagic nonsense I mentioned. People can disagree with me, but it's always bothered me.

[Fax Celestis]

Chasing perfection (6th level) from PHB-II has always sort of bugged me. I like the idea (+6 enhancement to all stats, minutes/level), but by the time you can cast it, all you're doing is buffing your target's dump stats (since it won't stack with stat buff items).

[ericgrau]

You can tell people the sky is red
c n'est pas une bluff (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bluffing?s=t).

Which is what I said before, but... well, I've heard "the sky is red" before. Things like reading the post don't seem to interrupt parroting the same old idea. Incidentally the dictionary definition also partly says making people believe or do things (but with more additional explanation), yet somehow IRL there isn't confusion about what lying means. Probably because there's no mechanical benefit to that confusion IRL. It's not complicated or hard to understand at all... until you want to beat an encounter. Then suddenly everything goes over one's head and it needs 20 pages of debate and selective rules word parsing.

[Fax Celestis]

c n'est pas une bluff (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bluffing?s=t).

Which is what I said before, but... well, I've heard "the sky is red" before. Things like reading the post don't seem to interrupt parroting the same old idea. Incidentally the dictionary definition also partly says making people believe or do things (but with more additional explanation), yet somehow IRL there isn't confusion about what lying means. Probably because there's no mechanical benefit to that confusion IRL. It's not complicated or hard to understand at all... until you want to beat an encounter. Then suddenly everything goes over one's head and it needs 20 pages of debate and selective rules word parsing.

I wish this forum had a like button.

[Divayth Fyr]

No mention of Shivering Touch yet? I kind of feel it could easily be bumped up a level or so...

[Drachasor]

Aren't the powers of the spells for their level supposed to be a bit screwy? If everything was "balanced" and equally powerful, you wouldn't have to think as much. I like the fact that a wizard has to spend time perusing the spells at each level and figure out which ones blow and which ones are good value. I still revise my views every now and then and realize I have misjudged a spell or missed a lovely synergy with something else.

Not. Replace the badly balanced spells with balanced spells and you have more real choice each level. Badly balanced spells just encourages players who are familiar with the game to pick the best options (ignoring the other spells). Unfamiliar players get screwed.

[sleepyphoenixx]

c n'est pas une bluff (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bluffing?s=t).

Which is what I said before, but... well, I've heard "the sky is red" before. Things like reading the post don't seem to interrupt parroting the same old idea. Incidentally the dictionary definition also partly says making people believe or do things (but with more additional explanation), yet somehow IRL there isn't confusion about what lying means. Probably because there's no mechanical benefit to that confusion IRL. It's not complicated or hard to understand at all... until you want to beat an encounter. Then suddenly everything goes over one's head and it needs 20 pages of debate and selective rules word parsing.

Bluff uses the rules from the PHB, not the dictionary definition.
RL and RAW are quite different sometimes and RAW is what we are presumably discussing, not reasonable houserules. Even if almost everyone uses them.
And no, I do not use bluff in that manner and Glibness is usually banned or at least nerfed for the exact reasons that i listed in my previous posts.

[Chronos]

Balance does not mean that all spells of a given level are identical. Even if all of the spells were balanced, you'd still have to consider how many enemies there are, and where they're arranged, and whether they have any resistances or vulnerabilities, and what your allies' status is, and whether you need a Hail Mary or something more reliable. If spells are well-balanced, then sometimes, based on those circumstances, you need one spell, and sometimes another. If, on the other hand, you have a few spells that are great, and most of them suck, then you don't need to think at all, you just use one of the great ones. You don't even have to think to figure out which ones are great, since you can just find that online.

Meanwhile, to all of the folks complaining about Polar Ray, it's worth noting that in 3.0, it was one of three options on a versatile 6th level spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freezingSphere.htm). Which I don't think was used all that much, either.

And the pair of spells I don't understand is Stone to Flesh (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneToFlesh.htm), at 6th level for a wizard, and Break Enchantment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/breakEnchantment.htm), at 5th level. Break Enchantment can fill the same primary purpose as Stone to Flesh, plus solve many other problems, and doesn't have the risk of killing the target (it can still fail, but in that case you can just try again). Surely, the ability to turn dungeon walls into meat isn't worth a loss of other versatility and a full level increase. Again, this made more sense in 3.0, when Break Enchantment was cleric-only, so there was at least a reason for a wizard to use Stone to Flesh.

[JaronK]

Alter Self is WAY too flexible and strong for a second level spell. With it, a humanoid caster can gain any of the following for 10 min/lvl:

1) +8 Natural AC (Crucian)
2) 10' Perfect Fly Speed (Air Mephling)
3) 30' (or is it 40') Fly Speed (Raptorian)
4) 10' Burrow Speed (Earth Mephling)
5) A massive bonus to hide and move silently (Whispergnome or Skulk)
6) +4 Craft with metal or stone (Earth Dwarf)
7) 40' Swim Speed (Aquatic Elf)

And more. Compare that to Fly (a third level spell) and it's not even close.

JaronK

[Alabenson]

For the life of me, I cannot understand why Remove Disease is a 3rd level spell. It should have been 2nd level at most.

[Sith_Happens]

I'm almost positive that the levels of Power Word Pain and Power Word Distract got switched by accident somehow. One first level character casting Power Word Pain on another is a kill, no ifs, ands, buts, or saving throws about it. Power Word Distract is... Really? Flat-footed for one round? That's maybe a first level spell, definitely not a 4th.

[Tathum]

What book are those in?

Seething Surge is from Book of Eldritch Might 2

Chill Touch is Core Books (PH)

[DuncanMacleod]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DuncanMacleod View Post
Aren't the powers of the spells for their level supposed to be a bit screwy? If everything was "balanced" and equally powerful, you wouldn't have to think as much. I like the fact that a wizard has to spend time perusing the spells at each level and figure out which ones blow and which ones are good value. I still revise my views every now and then and realize I have misjudged a spell or missed a lovely synergy with something else.

Not. Replace the badly balanced spells with balanced spells and you have more real choice each level. Badly balanced spells just encourages players who are familiar with the game to pick the best options (ignoring the other spells). Unfamiliar players get screwed.

Err... isn't unfamiliar players get screwed sort of the point? You invest time to learn the system and play a lot, you get better. Like any game. Like chess players pick the good moves rather than the stupid ones.

To the guy who made the comment about magic cards... no... you get to pick your spells, you don't get to pick what cards you get in a booster.

[Quorothorn]

I have wondered at Detect [Alignment] and Detect Undead being 1st level spells: even at 0th level they'd be rare preparations, but at 1st level it's practically laughable IMO.


No it wasn't. The FAQ answered volley attacks long before RC (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a).

Didn't Complete Arcane have rules on volley-attack spells like Scorching Ray only getting precision damage on the first attack roll, too, or did my brain make that up somehow?


And the pair of spells I don't understand is Stone to Flesh (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneToFlesh.htm), at 6th level for a wizard, and Break Enchantment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/breakEnchantment.htm), at 5th level. Break Enchantment can fill the same primary purpose as Stone to Flesh, plus solve many other problems, and doesn't have the risk of killing the target (it can still fail, but in that case you can just try again). Surely, the ability to turn dungeon walls into meat isn't worth a loss of other versatility and a full level increase. Again, this made more sense in 3.0, when Break Enchantment was cleric-only, so there was at least a reason for a wizard to use Stone to Flesh.

Stone to Flesh does have a speed advantage since Break Enchantment technically has 1-minute casting time (though that's easy to forget (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html), itself). But yeah, that doesn't seem nearly 'enough'. It's at 6th level presumably because its opposite is a 6th-level, but...


I'm almost positive that the levels of Power Word Pain and Power Word Distract got switched by accident somehow. One first level character casting Power Word Pain on another is a kill, no ifs, ands, buts, or saving throws about it. Power Word Distract is... Really? Flat-footed for one round? That's maybe a first level spell, definitely not a 4th.

I'm putting this one down to a simple mistake, yeah, akin to Shivering Touch probably needing to be a penalty rather than outright damage. Would anyone here actually allow in-game use of Power Word Pain as a 1st level, given how clearly ridiculous it is??


Alter Self is WAY too flexible and strong for a second level spell. With it, a humanoid caster can gain any of the following for 10 min/lvl:

1) +8 Natural AC (Crucian)
2) 10' Perfect Fly Speed (Air Mephling)
3) 30' (or is it 40') Fly Speed (Raptorian)
4) 10' Burrow Speed (Earth Mephling)
5) A massive bonus to hide and move silently (Whispergnome or Skulk)
6) +4 Craft with metal or stone (Earth Dwarf)
7) 40' Swim Speed (Aquatic Elf)

And more. Compare that to Fly (a third level spell) and it's not even close.

JaronK

Like Polymorph, this is somewhat a problem with the massive variety in creatures once you start drawing from the vast sources of 3.X ed, no?

(Also, can't you get 50 ft Swim via Merfolk, actually? Admittedly that knocks land speed down to 5.)

ETA:
Err... isn't unfamiliar players get screwed sort of the point? You invest time to learn the system and play a lot, you get better. Like any game. Like chess players pick the good moves rather than the stupid ones.

Chess is a competitive game. D&D is (usually) not, at least not to the same degree. I for one see no value in having deliberately, heavily substandard options in a tabletop game.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Rain of needles, a 2nd level Wu Jen spell (CAr).

Caps at 5d4, and does damage to one target/CL (close range). But the "best" part about this spell is that you have to split the damage. So a 3rd level caster can do 3d4 to one target, or 1d4 to three.

It should have been a first level spell.

Another one is protection from charm. Gives a resistance bonus of +1/3 CL against compulsions or charm effects. And lasts 1 round/level. 2nd level, should have been first.

Damn, Wu Jen got shafted.

[Chronos]

Come to think of it, someone already mentioned some spell as being too powerful for a first-level teleportation effect. I'd go further than that, and say that teleportation, of any sort, should just plain not be available to any first-level character of any class. It breaks my suspension of disbelief for first-level characters to do things that are just flat-out impossible. Shooting gouts of flame? Sure, no problem, you can do that with a flamethrower. Magic Missile? Gun. Charm Person? A really persuasive personality. Teleportation? No.

Now, obviously, higher-level spellcasters can do things that are impossible. That's fine. But it should take a lot of hard work to get to that point.

[Lightlawbliss]

...
(Also, can't you get 50 ft Swim via Merfolk, actually? Admittedly that knocks land speed down to 5.)
...

If all you want is the swim speed, then yes merfolk is better. Most I have encountered prefer the aquatic elf for most occurrences.

[Fax Celestis]

Didn't Complete Arcane have rules on volley-attack spells like Scorching Ray only getting precision damage on the first attack roll, too, or did my brain make that up somehow?Yes, it did.

[DR27]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DuncanMacleod View Post
Aren't the powers of the spells for their level supposed to be a bit screwy? If everything was "balanced" and equally powerful, you wouldn't have to think as much. I like the fact that a wizard has to spend time perusing the spells at each level and figure out which ones blow and which ones are good value. I still revise my views every now and then and realize I have misjudged a spell or missed a lovely synergy with something else.

Not. Replace the badly balanced spells with balanced spells and you have more real choice each level. Badly balanced spells just encourages players who are familiar with the game to pick the best options (ignoring the other spells). Unfamiliar players get screwed.

Err... isn't unfamiliar players get screwed sort of the point? You invest time to learn the system and play a lot, you get better. Like any game. Like chess players pick the good moves rather than the stupid ones.

To the guy who made the comment about magic cards... no... you get to pick your spells, you don't get to pick what cards you get in a booster.Can't tell if serious or trolling.

Unfamiliar players getting screwed is a way to lose players the first time they ever play - it sucks that any game ever is designed in a way that reduces viable options just to "trap newbies." PM me if you ever design a game, so I never play it, since you don't understand what makes a game fun to play - because it's absolutely not about screwing over new players.

I'll say it again, the point is that all the available spells at a level be around equal power level, and the skill comes from picking the one that matches the situation.

[Spuddles]

Alter Self is WAY too flexible and strong for a second level spell. With it, a humanoid caster can gain any of the following for 10 min/lvl:

1) +8 Natural AC (Crucian)
2) 10' Perfect Fly Speed (Air Mephling)
3) 30' (or is it 40') Fly Speed (Raptorian)
4) 10' Burrow Speed (Earth Mephling)
5) A massive bonus to hide and move silently (Whispergnome or Skulk)
6) +4 Craft with metal or stone (Earth Dwarf)
7) 40' Swim Speed (Aquatic Elf)

And more. Compare that to Fly (a third level spell) and it's not even close.

JaronK

ooh, nice list

too bad I am playin PF now and have to rely on OP Spell Compendium spells

[NeoPhoenix0]

For alter self, if you want a swim speed merfolk have a swim speed of 50 ft and unlike aquatic elves they can breathe out of water. Although aquatic elves still have a 30 ft land speed while merfolk only have a land speed of 5 ft.

Also on polar ray, I like it but only for a duskblade.

[Deophaun]

For alter self, if you want a swim speed merfolk have a swim speed of 50 ft and unlike aquatic elves they can breathe out of water. Although aquatic elves still have a 30 ft land speed while merfolk only have a land speed of 5 ft.
Which is why you just turn into a Locathah. 60 ft swim speed, +3 Nat armor. 10 foot land speed. Despite being in the MM, they're easily overlooked because they look like the creature from the black lagoon, so people just assume they aren't humanoids.

Also, don't forget the Varag from MMIV for a 60' base land speed.

[Lightlawbliss]

Which is why you just turn into a Locathah. 60 ft swim speed, +3 Nat armor. 10 foot land speed. Despite being in the MM, they're easily overlooked because they look like the creature from the black lagoon, so people just assume they aren't humanoids.

Also, don't forget the Varag from MMIV for a 60' base land speed.

Locathah have a massive disadvantage compaired to merfolk and aquatic elves: they have to hold their breath when out of water. they also have lower stats then merfolk.

[Spuddles]

Locathah have a massive disadvantage compaired to merfolk and aquatic elves: they have to hold their breath when out of water. they also have lower stats then merfolk.

You keep your own stats when using Alter Self.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Locathah have a massive disadvantage compaired to merfolk and aquatic elves: they have to hold their breath when out of water. they also have lower stats then merfolk.

Aquatic elves also have to hold their breathe, they are not amphibious.

[Lightlawbliss]

Aquatic elves also have to hold their breathe, they are not amphibious.


Gills: Aquatic elves can survive out of the water for 1 hour
per point of Constitution (after that, refer to the suffocation rules
on page 304 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide).

I don't call 10+ hour stretches of being fine holding one's breath. especially with a 10 min/lvl duration spell.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Alter Self is WAY too flexible and strong for a second level spell. With it, a humanoid caster can gain any of the following for 10 min/lvl:

1) +8 Natural AC (Crucian)
2) 10' Perfect Fly Speed (Air Mephling)
3) 30' (or is it 40') Fly Speed (Raptorian)
4) 10' Burrow Speed (Earth Mephling)
5) A massive bonus to hide and move silently (Whispergnome or Skulk)
6) +4 Craft with metal or stone (Earth Dwarf)
7) 40' Swim Speed (Aquatic Elf)

And more. Compare that to Fly (a third level spell) and it's not even close.

JaronK

IIRC, Raptorans only get a fly speed when they hit 6 HD, so RAW, you could never get a flight speed off of them.

[NeoPhoenix0]

I don't call 10+ hour stretches of being fine holding one's breath. especially with a 10 min/lvl duration spell.

missed that, I still prefer the merfolk for some inexplicable reason.

[Fyermind]

Reply on Power word pain: It's pretty reasonable when color spray or a guy with an axe and a high strength. For example the party BSF can easily deal 2d6+3 damage to an opponent more than 50% of the time at level 1. I can deal 1d6 per round until it dies. That's a long time of it hurting me and my friends. Not really overpowered unless I find a way to snipe with it. Successful sniping makes any encounter easy.

[Deophaun]

Locathah have a massive disadvantage compaired to merfolk and aquatic elves.
If you're changing into a merfolk with a land speed of 5, you aren't planning on being out of the water.

[Rosstin]

RE: Bluff

We usually rule that Bluff is about getting people to believe that YOUR CHARACTER believes something. Certain things that are totally unbelievable will cause NPCs to just take pity on you and think you're insane.

Think about it from a real-life perspective... the most persuasive person in the world can't convince you that Godzilla is attacking your city.

However, something like convincing a guard that you're a new employee would work.

+30 is crazy anyway, though. More evidence that the skill system doesn't and has never worked... One of the worst systems in DnD.

[ericgrau]

I think just about all the swift/immediate spells are a level too low, but that's just power creep. With enough books your swift becomes like your second mini-standard and everybody has to fill it with something good rather than something minor.

I think some of the big offenders like assay spell resistance could be fixed with a higher spell level or a change to a standard action. I mean, wow, "Hey, let's remove one of the balancing mechanics as a swift action!" SR is supposed to eat up about half your spells, so blowing a turn or losing a high level quickened spell would be fair. But I think shivering touch and wraithstrike are always equally powerful no matter how high the character level so you can't really fix them by bumping up their level. Only delay the problem.

[Drachasor]

RE: Bluff

We usually rule that Bluff is about getting people to believe that YOUR CHARACTER believes something. Certain things that are totally unbelievable will cause NPCs to just take pity on you and think you're insane.

Think about it from a real-life perspective... the most persuasive person in the world can't convince you that Godzilla is attacking your city.

However, something like convincing a guard that you're a new employee would work.

+30 is crazy anyway, though. More evidence that the skill system doesn't and has never worked... One of the worst systems in DnD.

I'd say you should have room in there for it to work like a Bavarian Fire Drill. Yeah, when you think about it, a giant lizard attacking the city IS unbelievable (well, not really in D&D). But the guy sold it so well that you actually went along with it.

Though, I have been conned before, so I know that selling a con isn't necessarily about making the target trust you completely. It's about getting them to concede to go along with what you want. There's a big difference between the two.

That said, the bluff and diplomacy rules are horrible, so spells that interact with them are horrible.

[Drachasor]

I think just about all the swift/immediate spells are a level too low, but that's just power creep. With enough books your swift becomes like your second mini-standard and everybody has to fill it with something good rather than something minor.

I think some of the big offenders like assay spell resistance could be fixed with a higher spell level or a change to a standard action. I mean, wow, "Hey, let's remove one of the balancing mechanics as a swift action!" SR is supposed to eat up about half your spells, so blowing a turn or losing a high level quickened spell would be fair. But I think shivering touch and wraithstrike are always equally powerful no matter how high the character level so you can't really fix them by bumping up their level. Only delay the problem.

There are certainly some things that shouldn't be spells. A lot of things that do ability damage are pretty suspect, imho. Ability damage is not a well-balanced system, which leads to problems when spells make use of it. That's why Shivering Touch is so awful.

I think Wraithstrike could be balanced. As a 9th level spell, for instance, it would be pretty weak. Deciding on what level makes sense is quite difficult though.

[Lightlawbliss]

...
I think Wraithstrike could be balanced. As a 9th level spell, for instance, it would be pretty weak. Deciding on what level makes sense is quite difficult though.

Wraithstrike is close to the right spell level before players start messing around with it. It is one of those spells that is real easy to negate the disadvantages.

[CRtwenty]

I've personally never understood why Meteor Swarm warrants being a 9th level spell. With how easy it is to resist and the relatively low amount of damage it usually does it'd be better off as a level 7 or 8 spell imo.

[Mnemnosyne]

I have wondered at Detect [Alignment] and Detect Undead being 1st level spells: even at 0th level they'd be rare preparations, but at 1st level it's practically laughable IMO.

...

Stone to Flesh does have a speed advantage since Break Enchantment technically has 1-minute casting time (though that's easy to forget (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html), itself). But yeah, that doesn't seem nearly 'enough'. It's at 6th level presumably because its opposite is a 6th-level, but...I kind of disagree about the detect spells, I almost feel like they should be higher level. Being able to instantly tell what alignment someone is really seems like it should be a pretty strong effect.

As far as stone to flesh, and this applies to a lot of spells that have a similar issue, I think it's partly an issue of legacy. A lot of spells were brought over at their original level...then new spells were added that didn't exist in the older editions. The new spells were sometimes out of balance with the old ones and made old ones questionable; break enchantment didn't exist in 2nd Edition. It's also a factor of the removal of reversible spells. Stone to flesh didn't exist as an independent spell in 2nd Edition: many spells were 'reversible' which means you can get an opposite effect by preparing their reversed forms. Flesh to stone and stone to flesh were the same spell, and one was a reversed version of the other.

The end result is that a lot of spells are weirdly placed because they've always been that level, except half the system changed around them, so where they may have been appropriately placed in 2nd Edition, they no longer are.

[nedz]

Whilst this is a fair point, there were several spells which were misplaced in AD&D.

[Chronos]

There are also some formerly-reversible spells which got separated, like Light and Darkness. There's no inherent reason why StF and FtS couldn't be different levels, too.

And a person might not be able to literally convince me that Godzilla is attacking the city, but they might be able to convince me that something big was happening that might easily be mistaken for Godzilla, such that I'd want to take a look myself. Which is about the same effect.

[Mnemnosyne]

Darkness wasn't actually reversible. 2nd Edition light is a 1st level spell, and darkness a 2nd level spell. This is sort of a 2E version of the same problem, actually: it always struck me as odd that darkness was 2nd level, but...continual light which was reversible into continual darkness was also 2nd level.

So yeah, while some spells were misplaced back then too, a lot of the ones that are misplaced now can be traced back to this reason. It's possible that some misplaced 2nd Edition spells are also that way for the same reason - I don't know 1st Edition or OD&D well enough to be certain.

[TuggyNE]

I've personally never understood why Meteor Swarm warrants being a 9th level spell. With how easy it is to resist and the relatively low amount of damage it usually does it'd be better off as a level 7 or 8 spell imo.

I was going to disagree and say it should be lower yet, but then I realized it's substantially better than delayed blast fireball in an absolute sense: it does more damage (24d6 area + 8d6 targeted) to more enemies (twice the radius means up to 8 times as many flying enemies, theoretically; practical gains are probably somewhere between 1.1 and 2 most of the time), is more reliable (4 saves to avoid all damage, and some damage can't be avoided except with AC), and is more flexible (can split or combine areas to wipe out weaker foes or whack harder ones, although DBF can also be delayed). So meteor swarm really can't be worse than an eighth-level spell, even if delayed blast fireball is a bit weaker than most sevenths.

Are there any spells that are more than one level off?

[Spuddles]

Are there any spells that are more than one level off?

It's not 3.5, but Pathfinder's Blood Money should be an epic spell, especially given that PF only has material components. Yet it is a first level spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blood-money).

[TuggyNE]

It's not 3.5, but Pathfinder's Blood Money should be an epic spell, especially given that PF only has material components. Yet it is a first level spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blood-money).

Well, aside from the "it's not obvious that you can't just take infinite Str damage and create enormously expensive components", what's so horrible about it? You can cast wish for free, for example, but you'd need 50 Str to do it. And you can't cast true resurrection, since it's not a Sor/Wiz, Magus, or Witch spell.

It basically seems to be a fairly stock WBL abuse, except limited to stuff you can use for a material component for a spell on your list. So maybe second or third level? Maybe I'm missing something.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Lots of great responses so far. In regards to shivering touch, in my campaign I raised the spell level by all versions of it by +1 and gave it a fortitude save to negate. It's still good, just not as overwhelming.

[Zombimode]

So yeah, while some spells were misplaced back then too, a lot of the ones that are misplaced now can be traced back to this reason. It's possible that some misplaced 2nd Edition spells are also that way for the same reason - I don't know 1st Edition or OD&D well enough to be certain.

Actually, a lot of the "misplaced" spells of 3.5 feel that way because their effects got "updated" but their spell level did not.
Meaning: they were actually not misplaced in their 2e incarnation.

[mikalife1]

No it wasn't. The FAQ answered volley attacks long before RC (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a).

huh I didnt know that but then again most DM's around here gave the FAQ about as much credence as the sage or dragon magazine ie not much. but tha still nerfs scouts if nothing else . oh well thanks for the info.
and one reason this that bugs me is is it nerfs a low optimization scout but not a high optimization scout because the low op scout has greater manyshot which is know kinda point less while the high op scout hs one of several free movement effects and move as a free action then full attacks. eh /end threadjack

[NeoPhoenix0]

huh I didnt know that but then again most DM's around here gave the FAQ about as much credence as the sage or dragon magazine ie not much. but tha still nerfs scouts if nothing else . oh well thanks for the info.

That's because the FAQ is mostly sage advice articles copy and pasted. Also it doesn't bring forth any new rules it only interprets them, sometimes in a way that directly contradicts the rules. It does occasionally suggest house rules but it doesn't even pretend that those are official. The RC of the other hand is a source of rules.

[Fax Celestis]

huh I didnt know that but then again most DM's around here gave the FAQ about as much credence as the sage or dragon magazine ie not much. but tha still nerfs scouts if nothing else . oh well thanks for the info.
and one reason this that bugs me is is it nerfs a low optimization scout but not a high optimization scout because the low op scout has greater manyshot which is know kinda point less while the high op scout hs one of several free movement effects and move as a free action then full attacks. eh /end threadjack

Greater Manyshot is not a volley attack, and explicitly allows precision damage per shot. Regular Manyshot is a volley attack.

The quick and dirty rule (and I think the intention behind the volley rules) is "you may sneak attack once per attack roll". Since regular Manyshot uses the same attack roll for all shots, you would only be able to apply precision damage once. Greater Manyshot has you roll once per shot, and therefore would apply precision damage per shot.

[JaronK]

That's because the FAQ is mostly sage advice articles copy and pasted. Also it doesn't bring forth any new rules it only interprets them, sometimes in a way that directly contradicts the rules. It does occasionally suggest house rules but it doesn't even pretend that those are official. The RC of the other hand is a source of rules.

The RC is sadly rather poorly written, and because of how it sets itself in the priority order the printing of the Premium books actually means the RC is no longer official at all.

Really annoying. I had such hopes for that book.

JaronK

[Kansaschaser]

This just boggles my mind, but there are dozens of spells with levels that are completely under or over powered compared to other spells of the same level.

Example: Polar Ray (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polarRay.htm). HOW IS THIS AN 8TH LEVEL SPELL! There is nothing about it that seems extraordinary enough to warrant such a high slot. This spell could easily be lowered down to 4th level (one level higher than fireball and lightning bolt to justify the higher damage cap) without upsetting game balance in the least.

On the opposite end we have things Glitterdust, Grease and Stinking Cloud. All are very powerful for their level and could be raised by +1.


Maybe the Wizards who researched the spells were trying to cut corners and didn't spend enough time creating the original version of the spell. They could have also been really daft. :smallwink:

In cases where I think a spell is terribly underpowered for it's level, I let my players spend time and money researching a newer version of the spell with appropriate power based on level.

[NeoPhoenix0]

The RC is sadly rather poorly written, and because of how it sets itself in the priority order the printing of the Premium books actually means the RC is no longer official at all.

Really annoying. I had such hopes for that book.

JaronK

No it sets it priority on publishing date, and the premium books have a publishing date in 2003. Look inside the books, the website isn't an accurate source on this.

Also, this isn't the forum to argue about this.

[JaronK]

No it sets it priority on publishing date, and the premium books have a publishing date in 2003. Look inside the books, the website isn't an accurate source on this.

Also, this isn't the forum to argue about this.

Did you just bring up a topic, then make a counter argument about that topic, then say that it wasn't the right place for that topic so you'd get the last word on that topic?

That's... not nice, to say the least.

JaronK

[NeoPhoenix0]

Did you just bring up a topic, then make a counter argument about that topic, then say that it wasn't the right place for that topic so you'd get the last word on that topic?

That's... not nice, to say the least.

JaronK

No you brought up the topic, I responded and said it wasn't the right place for that topic because it isn't.

[Chronos]

Quoth TuggyNE:

Well, aside from the "it's not obvious that you can't just take infinite Str damage and create enormously expensive components", what's so horrible about it? You can cast wish for free, for example, but you'd need 50 Str to do it.
Actually, it'd only cost you 1 Str damage, plus 1d6+50 HP damage, with the way it's worded. Fifty-six HP is a really small price to pay for a Wish.

[Humble Master]

Righteous Wrath of the Faithfull is absolute crud. 7th level spell that directly mimics the effects of 1st and 2nd level spells.

[Spuddles]

Righteous Wrath of the Faithfull is absolute crud. 7th level spell that directly mimics the effects of 1st and 2nd level spells.

That's probably why it was reprinted as a 5th level spell in SpC.

[Spuddles]

Well, aside from the "it's not obvious that you can't just take infinite Str damage and create enormously expensive components", what's so horrible about it? You can cast wish for free, for example, but you'd need 50 Str to do it.

So aside from not using the rules what's bad about it? You can still easily get 5000gp free with a 1st level spell, every time you cast it. With Dragon Shape II and a +6 str item, you get up to 13k gp with each casting.


And you can't cast true resurrection, since it's not a Sor/Wiz, Magus, or Witch spell.

Theurging in PF is almost as easy as it is in 3.5. Getting 20/14 casting is pretty straightforward, though there may be ways of getting it higher.


It basically seems to be a fairly stock WBL abuse, except limited to stuff you can use for a material component for a spell on your list. So maybe second or third level? Maybe I'm missing something.

What other "stock" WBL tricks are out there that let you circumvent the limiting factor for most spells?

It's not like turning ladders into 10ft poles into copper coins into diamond dust.

[TuggyNE]

Actually, it'd only cost you 1 Str damage, plus 1d6+50 HP damage, with the way it's worded. Fifty-six HP is a really small price to pay for a Wish.

I can see why you could try to argue that way, but context is against that interpretation; "additional point of damage" is pretty clearly Str damage, since that's the most proximal mention.


So aside from not using the rules what's bad about it? You can still easily get 5000gp free with a 1st level spell, every time you cast it. With Dragon Shape II and a +6 str item, you get up to 13k gp with each casting.

Assuming you can regain Str damage between castings, and have something that requires that component and is useful, yes. I guess fabricate would be a good candidate.

So yeah, it's probably pretty broken.


What other "stock" WBL tricks are out there that let you circumvent the limiting factor for most spells?

Does it matter how specific they are? WBL is WBL; if you can get it in one cheaty way, it's as good as another, generally speaking.

[Spuddles]

Does it matter how specific they are?

I honestly don't know of any in PF. There are the typical wealth multipliers with crafting and selling, but that's not quite the same as having no limiting factors for making your own demiplane.

[Drachasor]

Assuming you can regain Str damage between castings, and have something that requires that component and is useful, yes. I guess fabricate would be a good candidate.

So yeah, it's probably pretty broken.

It's very broken. 51 strength is not that hard to get at 17th level regardless of your starting strength -- Summon Monster and Magic Jar is an easy way to get some high starting strength. Added bonus is that it isn't even you that takes the strength damage.

Fabricate of course is stupid-broken with it, since you can literally turn all that strength into money directly.

[aleucard]

It's very broken. 51 strength is not that hard to get at 17th level regardless of your starting strength -- Summon Monster and Magic Jar is an easy way to get some high starting strength. Added bonus is that it isn't even you that takes the strength damage.

Fabricate of course is stupid-broken with it, since you can literally turn all that strength into money directly.

Sounds like a quick and simple way of pissing off entire planes, and that's assuming a DM lets you get away with it (isn't it in the books that Summon Monster basically pulls the summon's consciousness from its normal location and has it move around in what is essentially a sturdier Kage Bunshin? Don't think Magic Jar would work on that). Players assuming that they can do anything because it's technically possible in RAW are how players get slapped with cheese-graters for being munchkins.

This stunt might work with something like Planar Binding, since that drags in the actual summon, but that's going to get you noticed in a bad way even faster. Besides, if you are able to take the body of one of these guys, why in the name of Bea Arthur would you throw it away for a free cast of some random spell?

[Beleron]

Wish, Timestop, Shapechange and Gate should all be several levels higher. Oh, wait...

[Draz74]

Are there any spells that are more than one level off?
I'd say lots. For just two easy examples ... I've said before that I'd peg Alter Self as Level 4 (or 5, maybe), and Polymorph as Level 7 (or 8, maybe).


Wish, Timestop, Shapechamge and Gate should all be several levels higher. Oh, wait...

(Yes, I know this was a joke, but ...)

Shapechange and Gate, certainly.

Wish is actually pretty weak unless you use some shenanigans to avoid the XP cost. Time Stop is strong, but arguably not too strong. At most, it should only be one level higher. But I actually don't mind setting it as the standard for 9th Level spells. Most of the 9ths are actually really underwhelming ...

Freedom should be, like, Level 6, tops.

Energy Drain would be decent at Level 7. Maybe Level 8, if you're worried about hurting the feelings of all the Metamagic'd Enervation specialists out there.

Meteor Swarm? Probably Level 7. Weird? Probably Level 7. Prismatic Sphere? Hmmm, that one's only slightly on the weak side for a Level 9. It could stay as-is, or it could get dropped to Level 8. Foresight? Hmmm, that's actually probably the best standard of power for Level 9.

[Chronos]

Meteor Swarm is only really weak by virtue of blasting in general being weak. It's hard to name a blasting spell that's better, though.

[JaronK]

Meteor Swarm is only really weak by virtue of blasting in general being weak. It's hard to name a blasting spell that's better, though.

Maw of Chaos.

Wings of Flurry.

That wasn't hard at all!

JaronK

[TuggyNE]

I'd say lots. For just two easy examples ... I've said before that I'd peg Alter Self as Level 4 (or 5, maybe), and Polymorph as Level 7 (or 8, maybe).

Hmm, could be.


Freedom should be, like, Level 6, tops.

All right, yeah, although it makes imprisonment weird. Maybe it should just be amped up with a better duration or something.


Energy Drain would be decent at Level 7. Maybe Level 8, if you're worried about hurting the feelings of all the Metamagic'd Enervation specialists out there.

I'd go with level 8, personally. A spell known shouldn't be better than significant investment by way of feats.


Meteor Swarm? Probably Level 7. Weird? Probably Level 7. Prismatic Sphere? Hmmm, that one's only slightly on the weak side for a Level 9. It could stay as-is, or it could get dropped to Level 8. Foresight? Hmmm, that's actually probably the best standard of power for Level 9.

Meteor swarm is strictly and substantially better than delayed blast fireball, though, so unless you're cranking that down as well, MS needs to be level 8. Weird, being phantasmal killer, mass + incidental Str damage, should be either three or four levels higher, as standard for mass versions, so that could well be level 8 (especially since for most purposes it's better than finger of death).

[Icewraith]

Do remember that Weird still stuns even if the target passes both saving throws. Weird would be awesome if mind affecting immunity and to a lesser extent stunning immunity weren't passed around so liberally at higher levels.

Meteor swarm is terrible against anything with fire resistance, especially since the spell specifies it applies to each attack and most people do it that way for everything.

Iceberg, IIRC, is an interesting spell. You still have meteor swarm's no-save effect in a small area and everything starts suffocating and is buried... unless it's large or doesn't breathe or has a high fort save, which is almost everything when you're using 9th level spells.

The only uncapped damage spell I can think of aside from Wings of Flurry is Force Missiles, which still has a bad exchange rate with caster level. It is however, third or fourth level and autohits for force damage (and half damage to adjacent targets). It's terrible at low level when you could be casting fireball but at high level with some metamagic or CL boosters it's decent.

There are also some really odd or creepy spells. Silverbeard, gutsnake, tunnel swallow... also has anyone ever actually used any version of prying eyes successfully?

[Venger]

Do remember that Weird still stuns even if the target passes both saving throws. Weird would be awesome if mind affecting immunity and to a lesser extent stunning immunity weren't passed around so liberally at higher levels.

if the enemy is:
1) vulnerable to stun
2) vulnerable to fear
3) vulnerable to mind-affecting
4) vulnerable to illusions

in that order (with the list getting more general as it goes) I won't bother with the str damage since that's hardly the primary reason one casts the spell

but as you said, where on earth are you going to find one enemy that has all that stuff true of it at CR 17, much less "any number of them" ? it really sucks that they have to be within 30 ft of each other, just to make sure you really can't ever actually use this spell


There are also some really odd or creepy spells. Silverbeard, gutsnake, tunnel swallow... also has anyone ever actually used any version of prying eyes successfully?
I love how silverbeard boosts diplo against dwarves.

I've never successfully used prying eyes, though I did successfully use "scrying" once. the problem is that divination in general is something the dm does to you, not something you do to him. best case, he's got answers to what you want to know when you want to know it and is sad to tell it to you, worst case, he hasn't thought of anything because ulike the party (who is always active while players are playing D&D) npcs only really exist when the dm remembers them. if your dm forgets about what's what, then the school is not especially useful.

[Spuddles]

assuming a DM lets you get away with it

So you agree that the spell is broken, then.

Not really sure what the rest of your post is about....

[intothenight]

And the pair of spells I don't understand is Stone to Flesh (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneToFlesh.htm), at 6th level for a wizard, and Break Enchantment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/breakEnchantment.htm), at 5th level. Break Enchantment can fill the same primary purpose as Stone to Flesh, plus solve many other problems, and doesn't have the risk of killing the target (it can still fail, but in that case you can just try again). Surely, the ability to turn dungeon walls into meat isn't worth a loss of other versatility and a full level increase. Again, this made more sense in 3.0, when Break Enchantment was cleric-only, so there was at least a reason for a wizard to use Stone to Flesh.It's a higher level because you can use it to turn something that was stone to begin with into a flesh and blood creature. Create a flesh golem, turn a statue into a zombie, or just create an unexplained dead body and place it in the scheming royal advisor's bedroom. Lot of options there.

[navar100]

All of the Mass Cure Wounds spells are too high level. By the time you can cast even Mass Cure Light Wounds, the amount of healing it provides is insufficient. The party will have plenty of healing potions, and you're likely to have a wand or two. If the cleric is going to cast Cure Wounds spells anyway, he has plenty of 1st and 2nd level spell slots that aren't being used except for the BBEG fights. No way is the cleric blowing a 5th level or higher spell slot for healing unless it's Heal or Mass Heal. If the spells were two levels lower then they'd be alright. Mass Cure Light Wounds as a 3rd level spell is decent for a 5th level cleric to cast in an emergency or healing mop-up before bedtime. Mass Cure Critical Wounds would then be a 6th level spell slot. While not the greatest, it will do for a poor man's Mass Heal at 11th level when two or more party members really need a Heal spell right then and there. Mass Cure Serious Wounds as a 5th level spell might do just as well.

The Mass Animal Buffs (Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, etc.) are also too high a level. By the time you can cast 6th level spells any character who needs or benefits for a particular ability score buff most likely has a magic item enhancement for that ability score making the Mass spell useless. Making these spells 4th level would do. At 7th level one warrior of the party probably has an Item of Strength +2 but not all the warriors if more than one in the party, and for the one who does he still gets some benefit from a Mass Bull's Strength. Everyone would appreciate a Mass Bear's Endurance for the hit points.

[fishyfishyfishy]

All of the Mass Cure Wounds spells are too high level. By the time you can cast even Mass Cure Light Wounds, the amount of healing it provides is insufficient. The party will have plenty of healing potions, and you're likely to have a wand or two. If the cleric is going to cast Cure Wounds spells anyway, he has plenty of 1st and 2nd level spell slots that aren't being used except for the BBEG fights. No way is the cleric blowing a 5th level or higher spell slot for healing unless it's Heal or Mass Heal. If the spells were two levels lower then they'd be alright. Mass Cure Light Wounds as a 3rd level spell is decent for a 5th level cleric to cast in an emergency or healing mop-up before bedtime. Mass Cure Critical Wounds would then be a 6th level spell slot. While not the greatest, it will do for a poor man's Mass Heal at 11th level when two or more party members really need a Heal spell right then and there. Mass Cure Serious Wounds as a 5th level spell might do just as well.

The Mass Animal Buffs (Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, etc.) are also too high a level. By the time you can cast 6th level spells any character who needs or benefits for a particular ability score buff most likely has a magic item enhancement for that ability score making the Mass spell useless. Making these spells 4th level would do. At 7th level one warrior of the party probably has an Item of Strength +2 but not all the warriors if more than one in the party, and for the one who does he still gets some benefit from a Mass Bull's Strength. Everyone would appreciate a Mass Bear's Endurance for the hit points.

I agree 100%. Healing in general needs much more love.

[Chronos]

Quoth JaronK:

Maw of Chaos.

Wings of Flurry.

That wasn't hard at all!
Wings of Flurry will do less damage than Meteor Swarm unless you've got a caster level of 32, it's reflex half, it's got terrible range, and it's not available to wizards. Yeah, the damage is force and you can select targets, but I don't think that's enough to make it better than Meteor Swarm (though it almost certainly is better for its level).

Maw of Chaos can be better than Meteor Swarm, but it still does less damage on the first round, and that's all it'll do if your enemies have good saves. The potential for dazelock and repeated rounds of damage, plus the untyped damage, probably do make it better overall than Meteor Swarm, but I'm not sure it's a whole level better.

[lsfreak]

Well, the big problem with Meteor Swarm is that it's four attacks, which means energy resistance hits it four times harder. At CL 20 (likely where your CL is hovering around when you get your first 9's), a mere 5 fire resistance puts the damage against secondary targets on par with wings (64meteor vs 70wings average), and 10 fire resist puts them at equal damage against a single target (72 vs 70, though of course wings offers a save). But wings is also five levels lower; in terms of raw damage it should be comparing meteor swarm with maximized empowered wings: wings with successful saves is only a few points of damage below a meteor swarm with failed ones for secondary targets (77 vs 84). Throw on a metamagic reducer so you can afford to twin it, or stop assuming every wings save is made, , or add a bit of fire resist, and it gets sillier (or lets you do it at a slightly more respectable range).

[Spuddles]

Well, the big problem with Meteor Swarm is that it's four attacks, which means energy resistance hits it four times harder. At CL 20 (likely where your CL is hovering around when you get your first 9's), a mere 5 fire resistance puts the damage against secondary targets on par with wings (64meteor vs 70wings average), and 10 fire resist puts them at equal damage against a single target (72 vs 70, though of course wings offers a save). But wings is also five levels lower; in terms of raw damage it should be comparing meteor swarm with maximized empowered wings: wings with successful saves is only a few points of damage below a meteor swarm with failed ones for secondary targets (77 vs 84). Throw on a metamagic reducer so you can afford to twin it, or stop assuming every wings save is made, , or add a bit of fire resist, and it gets sillier (or lets you do it at a slightly more respectable range).

Depends on the method of energy resistance. Some work on a per attack basis and some on a per round basis.

[Just to Browse]

Basically every monster you fight once you have meteor swarm will be a wizard (with enough elemental immunity that they don't care about meteor swarm), a dragon (same, because spellcasting), or a major outsider (immune to fire damage basically all the time). So while meteor swarm is bad because it's four attacks, it's also bad because it's bludgeoning and fire damage, which are just sad damages to have. I'd rather have it be untyped or force or something, or perhaps pierce the damage immunities most people stock up on.

[137beth]

Even when stuff isn't immune to fire...
I prefer Empowered Twin Fireball with a lesser maximize metamagic rod. Or a lesser quicken metamagic rod, if you are willing to dish out the extra money. Throw in something to reduce the metamagic cost, and you can do far more damage with 7th-8th level spell slots. Heck, if you can reduce the spell level by 2, then you can get off an Empowered Twin Maximized Fireball without even touching metamagic rods. That's already more damage than a meteor swarm. Throw in a quicken metamagic rod (which is still cheap, since it is still a 3rd level spell:smalltongue:), and you are doing more than double the damage from a meteor swarm.
Yes, a big fireball does allow a saving throw, but it is reflex, and the monsters with good reflex saves also tend to have decent touch ACs, so one reflex save (or two, if you use a twin fireball) isn't all that much worse than needing four touch attack rolls.

Oh, and of course, energy resistance only applies twice against a twin fireball (once for a non-twin empowered maximized quickened fireball).

[Just to Browse]

Metamagic Rods sort of kind of break the game in half. Save your money and spend it on quickening SoDs, and you'll get punted from a game faster than you can say "swift action".

[Drachasor]

Sounds like a quick and simple way of pissing off entire planes, and that's assuming a DM lets you get away with it (isn't it in the books that Summon Monster basically pulls the summon's consciousness from its normal location and has it move around in what is essentially a sturdier Kage Bunshin? Don't think Magic Jar would work on that). Players assuming that they can do anything because it's technically possible in RAW are how players get slapped with cheese-graters for being munchkins.

This stunt might work with something like Planar Binding, since that drags in the actual summon, but that's going to get you noticed in a bad way even faster. Besides, if you are able to take the body of one of these guys, why in the name of Bea Arthur would you throw it away for a free cast of some random spell?

I don't see why Magic Jar wouldn't work, though its wording is confusing. It talks about souls then switches to life force. In any case, what exactly happens with the Summon is unclear, but as a manifestaton of a creature the original should be ok. On the other hand, dead ones take 24 hours to reform, so perhaps it would take 24 hours to get better. That said, I don't see how this is worse than summoning and getting creatures killed.

As for wasting the body for a random spell, we are talking about stuff like WISH here or Fabricate to make money. Also, Magic Jar can be used for more than one body. For minor stuff a low level summon would do.

That said, you can get wish without Summons or Magic Jar. It just takes more work and requires a Heal Spell to remove all the ability damage afterwards. Or you could buy a Bison or something and use polymorphing and Heal with Magic Jar to the same effect -- though Heal isn't strictly necessary, it does speed up how often you can cast Wish or other costly spells for free.

Let's make no mistake, Blood Money is very broken and should never have existed.

[Chronos]

Quoth Isfreak:

But wings is also five levels lower; in terms of raw damage it should be comparing meteor swarm with maximized empowered wings:
Actually, no, though this is a common mistake. A maximized empowered 4th-level spell should be better than a 9th-level spell. Both use the same spell slot, but the metamagicked spell also required the investment of two feats.

[Incanur]

Basically every monster you fight once you have meteor swarm will be a wizard (with enough elemental immunity that they don't care about meteor swarm), a dragon (same, because spellcasting), or a major outsider (immune to fire damage basically all the time). So while meteor swarm is bad because it's four attacks, it's also bad because it's bludgeoning and fire damage, which are just sad damages to have. I'd rather have it be untyped or force or something, or perhaps pierce the damage immunities most people stock up on.

It's also bad because of the Reflex saves. Meteor swarm should generally only be used with an incantatrix buddy to add Searing Spell and other such nonsense. And even then it's not that great.

[ericgrau]

Why do people keep talking about reflex saves like they're negatives? The lowest save on average is reflex so it is the best save to target. It might get a bad rep because it tends to be attached to damage spells. People here don't tend to worry about responding to damage so they don't pump reflex. Certain modules and mult-target effects hitting a 4 man party in general make that a bad idea, but that's a tangent. Long story short if you can get reflex on any type of spell then you do so.

As for meteor swarm it hits the same issues as widen spell: Most campaigns don't tend to involve so many foes nor large battle maps, so people don't tend to use widen. But compared to maximied widened fireball, meteor swarm is a deal and yet it doesn't cost any feats. The thing is nobody uses widen because large scale fights are too uncommon.

Fire and bludgeoning OTOH, are non-issues. They don't matter even a little bit. When most foes don't have even the most common specific defenses and when you have 20 attack options to choose from by level 17, specific defenses are irrelevant. Usually foes don't even have the specific defense (even the most common ones), and when they do you say "oh look I have 19 other options that he isn't resistant to". Only SR and saves are broad enough to matter. Maybe touch AC. If meteor swarm were single target the SR would be annoying but large numbers of foes also mean they're usually too miniony to have SR.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Reflex is the worst type of saves for spells because evasion and improved evasion are relatively easy to come by.

[ericgrau]

I rarely see foes or PCs with those. It's 2 levels yet I almost never see a build try to squeeze it in because they'd lose so many other things they like. On these boards especially people tend to ignore both reflex saves and evasion. Even if there is some high OP trick for getting it near-free, how many monsters actually have it?

"Evasion" appears 50 times in the SRD, most of which isn't for monsters. I think there are around 400 monsters.

[NeoPhoenix0]

When making encounters for optimized parties, class levels and templates are common. There are a number of classes that provide evasion and even at least one template. Personally, I have never had this problem because my group doesn't do the same type of optimization seen on this forum and so the encounters are often not as optimized. When the encounters are optimized they are optimized in much stranger ways.

[ericgrau]

"Some monster somewhere has it" is not a valid response to "the vast majority don't".

You can have anything. You can't have everything, nor anything within a million miles of everything. Therefore for any thing that's too particular the chance of having it is low. This is a Schrodinger build which is even worse than a Schrodinger wizard because you can't swap your build every morning. Can happen =/= =/= =/= =/= =/= does happen. Not even close.

In fact unless you get evasion for near free the argument is self-defeating. You only spend significant resources like LA on major threats, and major threats are only "major threats" if you expect it to work well on a lot of opponents.

[NeoPhoenix0]

You seem to be missing the whole encounter optimization thing. Many people on this forum seem to assume that all encounters must involve evasion and 20+ bonuses to saving throws or something. What encounter optimization definitely involves is picking encounters that are specifically difficult for the party, which means that the vast majority of potential encounters are not actually likely to occur. So the huge list of monsters that don't have evasion is actually much smaller for any given party.

The forum seems to contradict itself on this topic a lot. On one hand they say a save is a bad thing for a spell because of things like evasion, mettle, and creatures ability to pass the save. On the other hand the forum also complains how easy it is to jack up the save DCs on spell so they are next to impossible to make.

Personally, I like meteor swarm and have used it in a sort of meteor gatling gun build. Also the biggest issue isn't the reflex save, it's the fire damage. Fire damage is pretty much the most easily resisted element and has the most common immunities. On the other hand fire tends to be more useful, come fire spells set things on fire and there is fire vulnerability.

Edit: encounter optimization works the exact opposite of random monster picking. If evasion is likely to have a significant impact on the difficulty of the encounter and there is some way out there to get it without significantly increasing CR then it is extremely likely to be in the encounter. Again this is for encounter optimization not casual d&d.

Edit2: As far as evasion goes, Shadow creature template from forgotten realms is CR +1.

[JaronK]

Wings of Flurry will do less damage than Meteor Swarm unless you've got a caster level of 32, it's reflex half, it's got terrible range, and it's not available to wizards. Yeah, the damage is force and you can select targets, but I don't think that's enough to make it better than Meteor Swarm (though it almost certainly is better for its level).

It dazes enemies. They literally do nothing if they fail their save. That alone is huge. The fact that it's Force damage is huge... higher level enemies very often resist fire. Even if they only have Fire Resist 10 Wings of Flurry is going to win out... as a fourth level spell.

Also, Twinned Wings of Flurry is a lower level spell than Meteor Swarm. And it's far superior, since enemies must pass two saves or be unable to act, in addition to the massive damage.


Maw of Chaos can be better than Meteor Swarm, but it still does less damage on the first round, and that's all it'll do if your enemies have good saves. The potential for dazelock and repeated rounds of damage, plus the untyped damage, probably do make it better overall than Meteor Swarm, but I'm not sure it's a whole level better.

It does more damage by a lot if they're fire resistant (which tons of enemies are). And yeah, dazelock is amazing. Meteor Swarm is just not that good.

I'll also throw in Boreal Wind as a better spell... at 4th or 5th level (depending on class) it has a massive area. Lower damage per target per round, but it lasts a few rounds. You can wipe out an army. Also, check the rules for the effects of a strong wind... enemies simply cannot advance to get you while that spell is firing if they're not very big. And feel free to Twin it. or even just Extend it for extra fun.

JaronK

[137beth]

The forum seems to contradict itself on this topic a lot. On one hand they say a save is a bad thing for a spell because of things like evasion, mettle, and creatures ability to pass the save. On the other hand the forum also complains how easy it is to jack up the save DCs on spell so they are next to impossible to make.
It's both. If you optimize your save DCs, they almost always work. If you don't, then spells which allow saves are really underpowered compared to ranged touch attack spells. Both can be an issue in-game, depending on your build.

[ericgrau]

Besides save DCs, you can also tie all your saves to one type of save then super optimize that save too. The thing is you only need to optimize one kind of attack, but many kinds of defenses. The first is possible, the second not so much. No matter how high the level of optimization. Even paying one level each is ludicrously expensive, since there are so many defenses. A feat is more reasonable, but still very costly. Gold is the most reasonable, but it better be a very small part of your WBL for each of so many defenses. The more general the defense the more you can spend, the more specific the less you can spend: Improving __ vs. everything is worth more than improving __ vs. X, Y and Z combined.

So a high level of optimization only creates impossible DCs where evasion doesn't matter. Very rarely can anything make its save. A low level of optimization means all of the standard monsters very rarely have evasion.

[Lonely Tylenol]

What about Guidance of the Avatar? As a second-level spell, this spell basically obsoletes the entire skill system at the level you get it, since there are no level-appropriate encounters (or even remotely close to level-appropriate) based around skills that cannot be easily cleared by the +20 bonus alone. The bonus is, similarly, disproportionate to what you can get with most other spells at this level (Jump doesn't outscale it until CL9, and only for Jump checks; Glibness trumps it, but only for Bluff checks to lie), and the fact that you can select the skill of your choosing at the time of casting gives it much more utility than its contemporaries. The worst part of it is, it doesn't scale at all, so there is a sweet spot where it arrives as a viable skill-boosting alternative without arriving too soon, but I don't believe this is it. Would anybody really blink an eye if this were a third-, or perhaps even fourth-level spell? (OK, perhaps fourth is much.)

[nedz]

I rarely see foes or PCs with those. It's 2 levels yet I almost never see a build try to squeeze it in because they'd lose so many other things they like. On these boards especially people tend to ignore both reflex saves and evasion. Even if there is some high OP trick for getting it near-free, how many monsters actually have it?

"Evasion" appears 50 times in the SRD, most of which isn't for monsters. I think there are around 400 monsters.

In Mid-Op or Mid-Tier games evasion and high reflex saves are very common because it's an obvious thing to optimise. For instance I'm playing in one game where every PC has both; also most of the opponents are humanoids and again evasion is very common. I guess it depends upon the game but trying to generalise from your own experience is problematic.

[Thanatosia]

Actually, no, though this is a common mistake. A maximized empowered 4th-level spell should be better than a 9th-level spell. Both use the same spell slot, but the metamagicked spell also required the investment of two feats.
I disagree with your logic. I do think a metamagicked spell should be weaker then a normal spell of the same level. Yes, there is a feat cost, but the feat cost is being paid off with flexability. You don't just gain access to Empowered Flurry of Wings, but the ability to empower a huge range of spells. I suppose if you spent a feat JUST to buff one spell, then you would be right to argue that from a game design/balance perspective it should be stronger then an unbuffed spell of the same level... but Metamagic feats offer not just power, but flexability and versatility.

[Chronos]

A couple of spells that are too high-level: Ethereal Jaunt and Etherealness, at 7th and 9th levels. You can get most of the benefit of Ethereal Jaunt with Blink, a 3rd-level spell. Heck, with a 5th-level spell, you can just Plane Shift to the ethereal plane.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Question for the forum: how does your group handle those spells that fit within this "too low/high level" category?

Earlier I gave the example of Shivering Touch and it's lesser version. A fortitude save to negate and +1 spell level nerfs it pretty nicely.

Going back to Polar Ray: adding in a secondary effect would go a long way toward justifying level 8 spell. I thought about allowing a reflex save to avoid being encased in a thin layer of ice that immobilizes the target and leaves them helpless for 1d6 rounds. DC 25 Strength check to break out. Success on the save means they are instead Slowed (as the spell) for 1d6 rounds.

[Thanatosia]

Question for the forum: how does your group handle those spells that fit within this "too low/high level" category?
In my experience, we just ban or nerf the 'too powerful' variety, and ignore and no one takes the 'too weak' kind.

[ryu]

I prefer everything goes but the dm doesn't do it unless the players do it. This makes group optimizers find ridiculous tactical uses for things that were never commonly considered tactics to draw out the length of time they can stay ahead before the dm adapts to the new tactics.

[Eurus]

A couple of spells that are too high-level: Ethereal Jaunt and Etherealness, at 7th and 9th levels. You can get most of the benefit of Ethereal Jaunt with Blink, a 3rd-level spell. Heck, with a 5th-level spell, you can just Plane Shift to the ethereal plane.

Plane shifting to the ethereal plane is actually a vastly more inconvenient option, mainly because plane shift drops you 1-100 miles away from your destination -- and you'll end up another 1-100 miles away when you spend a second plane shift to get back. So yeah, it still works for certain things (and can even bring your friends), but it's definitely not something you can fire off easily or use in combat.

Blink is a pretty solid substitute, though. If anything, I think Blink could be up a level or so.

[tiercel]

Mirror image can be awfully strong.

Greater mirror image is strictly superior to Quickened mirror image (immediate, not swift action; also regenerates images+always fills to max #images), doesn't require the resources needed to Quicken a spell, and is a lower spell level than Quickened mirror image.

What.

[jaybird]

Meteor Swarm is only really weak by virtue of blasting in general being weak. It's hard to name a blasting spell that's better, though.

Even the humble Fireball and Scorching Ray, really, by virtue of being far more metamagic-able.