[Saga] How About Those Skill Challenges?

[ScubaGoomba]

They're great, right? I'm curious if anybody has experimented with long-term Skill Challenges. I'm thinking about the third category described on page 41 of Galaxy of Intrigue, starting with "[o]ther skill challenges that play out over a long sequence of game time might have interruptions."

Now, the example given (flush the hunter out of hiding and into a speeder chase) is clearly meant to reflect the Zam Wessel scene in Attack of the Clones. But what of something even longer? What about the Skill Challenge Palpatine entered in the beginning of Episode I, setting himself up as the reluctant Senator and culminating in him deceiving his way into being Emperor? Something like this could be run by the occasional Skill check, but long-term Skill Challenges seem perfect for it.

Has anybody experiment with this use of Skill Challenges and, if you have, how did it work out? I would like to use things like this in my current game (likely a lower complexity challenge at a level or two higher than the PCs that crops up once every session or so) to try better reflecting the political engine running behind the scenes at all times.

What I'm thinking is something along these lines: Your Skill Challenge is to earn the sympathy of the Imperial governor in charge of the local planet before the Moff can get to him and solidify all authority. So maybe you meet up with the governor and a Persuasion check is effective, resulting in a success. In the next session, the players infiltrate an Imperial base off-world and kill the head officer rather than avoiding direct conflict or leaving him unconscious; words reaches back to the governor, resulting in a Failure (or, maybe in this instance, a Catastrophic Failure). This kind of back and forth pans out until the heroes either succeed or fail at the Skill Challenge, which will then change up how the story progresses. It makes more sense than showing up every hour to roll a new Persuasion check, I would think.

Thoughts are greatly appreciated!

[IdleMuse]

I like the idea.

For me, the main attraction of Skill Challenges (henceforth SCs), is that they force players to be inventive with their skills, and they reward breadth over specialisation, something I feel should be rewarded in general. Sometimes the specific rigidities of the system as laid down in GoI grate on me a bit, so when I do run them (not frequently enough) I do tend to let it go more fast and loose.

I think your idea, of abstracting the concept to more than just skill rolls, is a good one, and really takes it beyond the idea of a 'skill challenge' more towards a campaign structure idea, which it fine; it's good inspiration. Certainly, long-term skill challenges (even if it's just one player trying to achieve a long-term goal) do sound cool, as long as you write it down as a record of how its going and what skills/approached have already been tried.

[ScubaGoomba]

Which rigidities are you referring to? I haven't actually run Saga since before Galaxy of Intrigue (Clone Wars was brand new then!), so I haven't had a chance to toy around much with them.

And thanks! I think it will help me plan out the campaign a bit more, but still keep it fairly open-ended. I plan to note every time they Succeed or Fail on plot points that I put in there. I also don't intend to tell that they're involved in part of the "Skill" Challenge when they get there; if anything, it's an organizational structure for myself.

[BWR]

Skill challenges are the one thing I unhesitatingly adopted from Saga into just about any other system. They are great.
But I'm not sure long-term planning should be considered a skil challenge. A skill challenge is a very limited scope with an obvious goal. Reducing long-term planning and manipulation to a skill challenge, even a big one, is undermining the importance of planning and forethought on the part of the players.

Sure, Palpatine's plots probably had lots of situations that could mechanically be described as skill challenges, but I wouldn't treat the entire thing as one, however grand in scale. In short, I would say Palpatine put other people in skill challenges and made sure the outcome worked his way.

[Thrysierius]

As a player, I like skill challenges but let me offer a word of caution. Your PCs that delved highly into combat are going to be miserable, as are likely your Jedi. Players with a short list of skills will run out of options very quickly and get frustrated, especially in the larger 8 success before 3 failure types.

[Alejandro]

That's why a good GM also makes allowances for a PC earning a success by, in some cases, making an attack roll, using a particular Force power, or a talent. Of course, you might not TELL the player to do that; they have to think too. :)

[ScubaGoomba]

Oh, for sure. If we're running an escape Skill Challenge, if a player wants to roll an Attack roll to say they ran into some guards but incapacitated them, I would be all for it. Thankfully, only one of my players isn't very Skilled, but even she has a few tricks up her sleeve that will make for potentially interesting Skill Challenges.

In addition to using them as a means of creating divergent story paths, I think SC's are a great way to keep the actual tactical encounters for things that matter more. Thinking about it this way has really helped me break down the Star Wars films into game terms. Take A New Hope:

So the film starts out with Leia giving R2 the plans, but this is probably just backstory. I don't really think the campaign would have started until we meet Luke. As an SC to get the players used to how they work, we have Luke haggling with the Jawas. Low complexitly, low CL, with the GM likely picking Persuasion, Deception, Intimidation, and Knowledge (Technology).

Next we have an SC with Luke seeking Obi-Wan. Endurance, Survival, and Knowledge (Galactic Lore) as possibles. He fails this Challenge, which results in him being ambushed and, as a penalty for the failure, I imagine Luke's body was looted before he was rescued (or you could say that the player had to come up with the money to repair his busted droids).

The cantina scene is next, which is another failed SC on Luke's part, trying to find a pilot and ship. Because they failed, Luke got into a small brawl at the bar, which drew Imperial attention (and attack).

Next, they find themselves in the Death Star, rescuing Princess Leia. This is likely just one, massive, High Complexity SC. They all have different tasks they have to accomplish, running around the station staying out of the Stormtroopers' way while getting to the Princess and getting back. Yet again, the players fail the SC, which results in the first real tactical encounter of the game: the dogfight with the TIE-Fighters. Even during this, I wouldn't be surprised if Chewie, Leia, and R2 had their own small Skill Challenge to handle things on the ship while Han and Luke took out the fighters.

Finally, we have one last tactical encounter, with the players at the Death Star.

Looking at it this way, all players had things to do throughout the entire campaign (and Han used a masterful Attack Roll as part of a SC in the Death Star, charging at all of the Stormtroopers as a distraction) and there really were only two planned tactical encounters. Anything else that happened (like the Stormtroopers at Mos Eisley) were incidental and a result of failing the SC.

[Alejandro]

While I agree with you in principle, most of that stuff wasn't skill challenges. Use of skills, yes, but not full challenges. Buying some droids is just shopping, especially since there was no pressure or real consequence of failure (the Jawas will be back next week, etc.)

Luke was alone, unless you count the droids as other PCs; and if you do, they didn't help at all. Luke simply failed badly at Perception and got saved by a DMPC (Obiwan.)

At the cantina, the DMPC shows off again, keeping Luke from getting clobbered, and also ensuring that the PC meets some of the other PCs, Han and Chewie.

The first real skill challenge starts immediately after Han, Chewie and Luke capture the detention block station (after a standard combat.) The PCs mess up several times, causing a stormtrooper attack (although they now gain another ally/PC, Princess Leia) and, after they do poorly in the battle, the scene shifts to the rest of the skill challenge and the best example of one, the garbage crusher.

This is a scene where all the PCs are involved (including the droids, elsewhere, if they are PCs) multiple things can be attempted to solve the challenge, and there are consequences for failure (death.) There are also multiple risks (the dianoga, the crusher, stormtroopers catching the droids in the act) for the PCs to solve.

The escape from the Death Star is a standard combat, as is the attack on the Death Star, with Han likely spending a Destiny Point to attack Vader's formation, and Luke spending a Destiny Point to hit the exhaust port.

[IdleMuse]

I don't think there's any problem in treating longer-scale operations as a SC for the GM; all it really is saying is that you determine the success of the players based on a number of factors, when they need to succeed N times before they fail X times. I think, especially for a GM looking to bring more structure to their campaigns, that's not a bad thing. It's just, not really a Skill Challenge any more.


As a player, I like skill challenges but let me offer a word of caution. Your PCs that delved highly into combat are going to be miserable, as are likely your Jedi. Players with a short list of skills will run out of options very quickly and get frustrated, especially in the larger 8 success before 3 failure types.

I agree that this is a problem, but I actually think it's a problem with players over-specialising in combat in general. I guess, if you've advertised the game as a combat heavy game then throw lots of SC-like situations at players, they have a right to be grumpy, but when giving players advice on what sort of characters are appropriate, I always try to dissuade them from playing very narrow characters like that.

And even with characters with only a few skills, there's plenty of options on each skill to provide different avenues, depending on the innovation of the player.

[Alejandro]

I don't think there's any problem in treating longer-scale operations as a SC for the GM; all it really is saying is that you determine the success of the players based on a number of factors, when they need to succeed N times before they fail X times. I think, especially for a GM looking to bring more structure to their campaigns, that's not a bad thing. It's just, not really a Skill Challenge any more.



I agree that this is a problem, but I actually think it's a problem with players over-specialising in combat in general. I guess, if you've advertised the game as a combat heavy game then throw lots of SC-like situations at players, they have a right to be grumpy, but when giving players advice on what sort of characters are appropriate, I always try to dissuade them from playing very narrow characters like that.

And even with characters with only a few skills, there's plenty of options on each skill to provide different avenues, depending on the innovation of the player.

One of my players is a combat monster gunslinger, but he does fine in skill challenges. Probably because it is a smart and experienced player who isn't afraid to improvise or fail. Your results may vary if we are dealing with the stereotypical, powergaming adolescent. :)

[IdleMuse]

... smart and experienced player who isn't afraid to improvise or fail.

Well, with awesome players, you don't ever need to worry about stuff like this, obviously :smallbiggrin:

Although in general that is a good point; SCs are better the more inventive players are. In fact, they can be a good tool for teaching inventiveness.

[Alejandro]

Well, with awesome players, you don't ever need to worry about stuff like this, obviously :smallbiggrin:

Although in general that is a good point; SCs are better the more inventive players are. In fact, they can be a good tool for teaching inventiveness.

It was one of the first times I saw anyone attempt an Endurance check. (Reactor leak, Endurance check to handle the heat and radiation while in the area. Worked well.)

[IdleMuse]

I like running games on Scum worlds (be they Tatooine-esque deserts, or otherwise oddly-inhospitable), so I've made players roll loads of Endurance tests over the years.

[Echobeats]

I see Skill Challenges as basically an alternative type of encounter. Palpatine rising to power isn't an enormous Skill Challenge: it's a campaign.

Something I want to do more is incorporate SCs into combat encounters (à la GOI p50). Anyone got any good ideas for how to do this, or good/bad experiences of it to share?

[Alejandro]

It's pretty easy. You just need some component of the battle that the PCs can't easily solve by attacking it. A good example is the Endor bunker. Han tried to hotwire it open with Mechanics checks, during an active combat encounter.