How would you balance Wizard and Sorcerer against each other?

[aleucard]

I think we can all agree that Wizards are almost strictly better than Sorcerers, with the only exception coming to mind being if they for some reason are using the same spells in a fight and no metamagic. I find this to be bull****, so thus this thread is born! *cue fanfare*

Now, for rules.

1) No other classes exist besides Wizard and Sorcerer, PrC or otherwise. This is about modifying the base class itself for balance, not rerouting it through another.

2) The end result should have, at least, both classes on the same tier. This is how we define balance for most classes, so this is the measuring stick being used. If for some reason you don't have it already, this link is the tier system in a nutshell; http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=u8kvrnln44rpa1es1gpca4rfo0&topic=5293

3) Don't drop either class below Tier 3. While bringing them down from their lofty perch is an admirable goal, Tier 3 is essentially as close to perfect balance as it gets. Beyond that is where classes start getting useless, which can be even worse for a player than broken. Better to reroll a character because you nuked the campaign world on accident than because you keep getting eaten every other session.

4) Don't trivialize another class unless if you're specifically designing your version for a world where said class is unavailable. This is the only rule for which other classes exist. If your fix causes one of the two to do another class's job, while also having the additional functionality of being a wizard/sorcerer, then make sure it's known you're doing it.

That's it, basically. It was mentioned that adding further rules after this was not appreciated, so I won't do that. Just try and be sensible and on-point! We're balancing the two between them, not shooting them off into orbit.

[BWR]

Do you want to buff the sorcerer or nerf the wizard? Because it won't take much in either direction to equalize the two.

[CRtwenty]

Remove the increased casting time for metamagic with Sorcerer and give them similar spell progression to a Wizard (so they get their next level of spells the same time as a Wizard of equal level). Remove Generalist Wizards so they have to be Specialists.

Sorcerers now equal Wizards in when their spells come online and are now far more powerful with metamagic. They are able to cast any Arcane spell but have a self limiting selection to choose from. They are quite a bit more powerful.

Wizards are mostly unchanged except now they have no choice but to ban a few schools. This makes them slightly weaker or leaves them unchanged, depending on your pov.

[Spuddles]

focused specialist wizards with substitution features (dumping familiar, scribe scroll) are arguably better than generalists in a mid-optimization environment

arguably, the biggest hit focused specialists take is at low levels, because they probably banned 3 of enchantment, evocation, illusion, and necromancy. Loss of enchantment means no sleep, no necromancy means losing command undead, no illusion means no color spray. It's not the end of the world, but those spells go a long way in evening the odds vs. common low level encounters.


I suggest using PF sorcerer bloodlines, except make all the bloodlines have good spells. There are some really hit-or-miss bloodlines, due to spell variability.

Bumping sorc up to 4+int skill points and adding a few more class skills would really let them shine at lower levels.

[Vaz]

Gaining Sorcerer more social skills to base off their Charisma would help.

Combining it with Draconic Auras from a Dragon Shaman would help.

Reserves of Strength/Wilder-esque/Overchannel- like ability.

Include in-built Metamagic reducers. If they lose the wide access to spells they must specialise which gradually evolves into say Arcane Thesis or even a flat -1 to costs.

Immediate Action Counterspelling.

[Rastapopolos]

give wizards uncanny forethought and spontanious divination for free, now no-one takes sorc and the problem is solved :smallcool:

[Raendyn]

The classes are almost farly ballanced. No kidding.

There have been countless threads like this in this forum, not to mention others....

Conclusion always is that sorc just feels a bit unrewarding because of the lack of class abilities, but thats not entirely true.

The fact that in Theoritical Optimization wizard does everything and Sorc does only 2/5 things in equal lvl, has little to do with the practical outcome in games.

And even in hi Opt, those yummy Sorc only spells do have a gap-closing effect.

Considering that anyways a good DM is reactive to any player build, and tries to control OP, most proper games end with those two classes doing great in the aspect that they decided to focus, and believe me, a wizard that does anything, anywhere, anytime it so hard to manage as a player that ppl get bored with him, on the other hand he is much easier that it seems to control as DM.

In the very end, the sorc and the wizard in any party that doesnt consist of antagonizing scumbags, have a very tiny difference:
Wizard can throw very few extra tricks, sorcs tricks for longer time.

Try it in game, play with decent players that know DnD and you will immediately change opinion. Or at the very least, tone it down so much that it won't be a big deal.

[Prince Raven]

Through them in a pit, cast anti-magic field, make them fight to death with their fists.

Apart from that, I think giving Sorcerers more to do with their high Charisma than just spells and diplomacy would balance them if we're talking about the game as a whole rather than purely combat situations.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Adjusting spell progression so both get new spell levels at the same time should be the first step imo. Either move Sorcerer progression up to 1,3,5,7,... or adjust Wizard progression to 1,4,6,8,..., it doesn't really matter which if you just compare those two classes on their own.

Grant Sorcerers bonus feats at the same rate as a wizard or give them actual class features on a similar progression.

Increase spells known by 1-2 for each spell level and add more sorcerer-only spells.

Restrict Wizards to 4-5 schools. Essentially make them all focused specialists to turn wizard vs sorcerer into a choice between specialist and generalist.

Redistribute spells between schools to make the choices actually meaningful.
Conjuration and Transmutation especially are head and shoulders above other schools and should be narrowed down.
All blasting goes into evocation. All defensive spells go into either abjuration or illusion. Shadow Evocation/Conjuration and similar spells do not exist.
Teleportation goes into evocation too. Offensive buffs and ability boosts move from transmutation to enchantment.
Debuffs are distributed between necromancy, illusion and enchantment.

That should do a lot to make sorcerers a viable choice and tone down wizards a little.

[Auramis]

What about offering bonus feats to sorcerer based on bloodline, kind of like how Pathfinder did? The entirety of Draconic Feats practically are begging for sorcerer to pick them up. Downside: nice as they are, sorcerers have to sacrifice feats they could spend in other things to get them. Bonus feats might work out, though the spacing and amount of them is debatable.

I love dragons, personally, so anything that plays to the sorcerer's being draconic in blood makes me happy.

[Kasbark]

In my homebrew system i brought the sorcerer up on par with the wizard by upping their spell/day so they gain a new spell level at the same time as a wizard. (so 2nd level spells at level 3 and so on), and have them 1 additional spell known of every spell level.

I also made several other changes to bring both wizards and sorcerers down on par with other classes, but that's not really important in this regard. Change the sorcerer's spell/day and spells known slightly, and she is no longer just a worse version of the wizard.

[nedz]

You can't really change their tiers because Vancian casting is T1 and Spontaneous casting is T2. Any other changes are cosmetic and it's not like either are weak when compared to the lower tier classes.

Now if you were to ban Vancian casting, making Clerics and Druids use the spontaneous casting variant rules, then you will have trimmed T1 down.

OK: you have pretty much banned Wizard at this point, but say you were to spontaneousize it ?
Wizard would have

Faster Spell progression
Bonus feats
Access to Wizard only spells, though these probably don't work any more
Sorcerer would have

Sorcerer only spells

Spontaneousizing Wizard 'properly' would just leave the bonus feats.

I haven't accounted for the ACFs here, but the above are the main points.

[Eldan]

Limit the number of spells wizards can have in their book. More than the sorcerer, but not quite infinite.

Then bring the Sorcerer progression of highest level spell up to that of the wizard and drop the metamagic time increase.

That should about do it.

[TuggyNE]

Conclusion always is that sorc just feels a bit unrewarding because of the lack of class abilities, but thats not entirely true.

Err... no? It's unrewarding because it's half a spell level behind, because its casting mechanism (spontaneous spells-known) is inherently inferior to the Wizard's (prepared spellbook), because it uses an inferior casting stat, and only minorly because it doesn't get free feats.


You can't really change their tiers because Vancian casting is T1 and Spontaneous casting is T2.

More specifically, prepared spellbook/unlimited-spells-known is T1, where limited-spells-known (prepared or spontaneous) is T2; it's just that nobody slaps prepared casters with limited spells known, because that seems too harsh a restriction. Spontaneous, all else being equal, would actually be better than prepared.

[ahenobarbi]

Advantages of wizard over sorcerer are:
* Access to more spells
* Faster casting progression
* Bonus feats
* No metamagic spell casting time increase.
* Better ACFs
* Wizard-only spells
* Better casting stat

Advantages sorcerer over wizard are:
* More spell slots
* Spontaneous casting
* Metamagic spell casting time increase (sometimes it's very good).
* Sorcerer-only spells.

Generally the first point in favor of wizard (access to more spells) is the difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2. So if you seriously limit Wizard spells known or seriously boost Sorcerer spells known they'll end up in the same tier.

IMHO if they had the same number of spells known all advantages of wizard would be roughly balanced by Sorcerer spontaneousness.

[nedz]

Advantages of wizard over sorcerer are:
* Access to more spells
* Faster casting progression
* Bonus feats
* No metamagic spell casting time increase.
* Better ACFs
* Wizard-only spells
* Better casting stat

Advantages sorcerer over wizard are:
* More spell slots
* Spontaneous casting
* Metamagic spell casting time increase (sometimes it's very good).
* Sorcerer-only spells.

Generally the first point in favor of wizard (access to more spells) is the difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2. So if you seriously limit Wizard spells known or seriously boost Sorcerer spells known they'll end up in the same tier.

IMHO if they had the same number of spells known all advantages of wizard would be roughly balanced by Sorcerer spontaneousness.

How is losing an action ever an advantage ?

[DementedFellow]

I know this goes outside the rules laid out in the OP, but the thing I would change would be to remove the PrC restrictions on how you have to prepare magic to enter.

[sleepyphoenixx]

How is losing an action ever an advantage ?

Arcane Spellsurge & Invisible Spell (or any other +0 metamagic) essentially gets you free quicken for all your spells if you're a spontaneus caster.

[ahenobarbi]

How is losing an action ever an advantage ?


Arcane Spellsurge & Invisible Spell (or any other +0 metamagic) essentially gets you free quicken for all your spells if you're a spontaneus caster.

Also you can cast twinned celerity inside your twinned celerity.

[Gemini476]

I do believe that an earlier edition restricted Mage spells known to INT Modifier/spell level.
So if you are a ninth level wizard with 20 INT, you would have a maximum of 5 spells known of every level. That's assuming that you find scrolls and such to scribe into your spell book, of course.

Also, lose the ability to leave slots unprepared and fill them in later. Or give the sorcerer even more spells/day, since they're really not as large an advantage as WotC think.

Whatever you do, though, make them get new spell levels at the same rate.

[ahenobarbi]

I do believe that an earlier edition restricted Mage spells known to INT Modifier/spell level.
So if you are a ninth level wizard with 20 INT, you would have a maximum of 5 spells known of every level. That's assuming that you find scrolls and such to scribe into your spell book, of course.

that's still much more than what Sorcerer gets. I mean... if Sorcerer just got 2 new spells each level (like wizard does) it would be much, much better. Even if it capped at 5 spells / level it would be decent. But capping at 3 spells level for 6+ spells is to little IMHO.

[Fortinbro]

How to take wizard players down a peg:

1.) Make them pay to inscribe spells in their spellbook. So many people I know ignore this rule.

2.) If you see them preparing the same few spells over and over, throw some unpredictable scenarios at them. Then they'll wish they could cast spontaneously.

3.) So few wizard players I've seen actually go to reasonable means of protecting their spellbooks. Have an enemy rogue steal it/destroy it.

[Auramis]

How to take wizard players down a peg:

1.) Make them pay to inscribe spells in their spellbook. So many people I know ignore this rule.

2.) If you see them preparing the same few spells over and over, throw some unpredictable scenarios at them. Then they'll wish they could cast spontaneously.

3.) So few wizard players I've seen actually go to reasonable means of protecting their spellbooks. Have an enemy rogue steal it/destroy it.

You dastardly fiend... I like your style.

Looking at the dead levels for wizards, there was an option for making the text in their spellbook move about the page for an increased inscribing cost. My brother dismissed it after I mentioned it, but I couldn't help but think of the chaos that could ensue if, not only another wizard stole a party wizard's book, but also managed to copy his spells for his own.

In retrospect, it was a minor thing to throw into the dead levels, but it got me thinking about how much a wizard can be gimped if you just take his book away. The sorcerer is suddenly vastly superior.

[Deophaun]

1) Remove bonus feats from the Wizard
2) Reduce Wizard progression to Sorcerer levels
3) Do not allow Wizards to leave slots unfilled
4) Wizards must ban at least one school (not divination). They gain no offsetting benefit from this.

I wouldn't do anything to buff the Sorcerer. They're T2. That means they still need to be taken down a peg, not made even more powerful.

[Shining Wrath]

It's really not hard.

Go back to Gygax's idea that wizards are supremely jealous and just DO NOT SHARE SPELLS.


You can't buy new ones at any price.
NPC Wizards won't share their spells for anything less than 3 or 4 equivalent spells plus lots of gold, unless you've saved their lives, in which case they might come down to 2 to 1.
Wizards value their spell books above all else and any spell book you find is going to be trapped upon the traps with traps guarding the traps that you have to open to get to the traps. And those traps are going to be designed by someone who is EXTREMELY familiar with both the capabilities of wizards and of rogues. Which is to say, extracting a single spell should require weeks of game time.


Once you change a wizard from Batman into "choose 5 L1 spells out of 8 known", the sorcerer's innate abilities look a lot better.

[nedz]

I do believe that an earlier edition restricted Mage spells known to INT Modifier/spell level.
So if you are a ninth level wizard with 20 INT, you would have a maximum of 5 spells known of every level. That's assuming that you find scrolls and such to scribe into your spell book, of course.

Also, lose the ability to leave slots unprepared and fill them in later. Or give the sorcerer even more spells/day, since they're really not as large an advantage as WotC think.

Whatever you do, though, make them get new spell levels at the same rate.

AD&D Wizards had a limit of spells known per spell level. It was based on Int, but the table was non linear. It was rarely a problem unless you had lowish Int.

[DR27]

Give them similar spell progression.This.

After that, the power differences between the two classes boil down to the fact that Wizards have the potential to utilize every game-breaking trick in the course of a single campaign. Sorcerers can only use a couple. Tier differences between the two become a function of spells known. If they didn't have access to those tricks however, they would both be somewhere in T3 - probably wizard high T3, sorcerer low T3. I like the idea of removing/restricting those spells, but most don't - "But X is an integral part of the game, you can't remove that!" or "Stop restricting my character options you Tier3-centric bitch!" Can't make everybody happy, but w/e.

I'd say that putting them both in the same tier without overall power reduction would only possible if they had (near) the same number of spells known.

[aleucard]

Since I want to contribute to this, I'll post my personal idea. I am operating as if this is under a spell-point system, rather than spell slot; it feels much more organic, and one of the major issues with it in terms of balance is nullified here.

Basically, we combine the two classes, and have the player pick between focusing on spontaneous and prepared casting similar to a Ranger picking between TWF and Bows. Spontaneous Casting would cost more in points, but Prepared Casting requires the locking-down of points that could be used for more Spontaneous Casting or other potential uses (I don't buy that items can't be designed to take magical energy from wielders to work; think runestaff for examples). You still retain access to both no matter your choice; you just obtain certain benefits from it related to your pick.

Spontaneous Casting is done through internalized understanding of a spell. There's a limited number of spells that a player can do this with, which is (along with casting in this way entirely) based off of Charisma and the player's caster level. This list would be smaller than a Sorcerer's, but swapping a spell out on this list only requires the player to have their desired spell in their book. If the book is lost or destroyed, these spells remain regardless of anything done to the player (negative levels included, though it might restrict his ability to use them), and can be transcribed to a replacement book without expending spell energy.

Prepared Casting is done through going through the written properties and methodology of a given spell, casting it from following along to the book, then locking it in at the last possible moment for later completion and use. A player's capacity to cast with this method is based off of their caster level and Intelligence. This can be done with any spell in that player's books, with normal rules applying. If the book is lost or destroyed, prepared spells may be expended to scribe them into a new book.

A player's bonus spells are determined by their Int or Cha, whichever's higher.


This is just a spitball of an idea, so if you got anything constructive to add, feel free. If it's retarded for some reason, tell me why and if possible suggest fixes to deal with it.

[Auramis]

It's really not hard.

Go back to Gygax's idea that wizards are supremely jealous and just DO NOT SHARE SPELLS.


You can't buy new ones at any price.
NPC Wizards won't share their spells for anything less than 3 or 4 equivalent spells plus lots of gold, unless you've saved their lives, in which case they might come down to 2 to 1.
Wizards value their spell books above all else and any spell book you find is going to be trapped upon the traps with traps guarding the traps that you have to open to get to the traps. And those traps are going to be designed by someone who is EXTREMELY familiar with both the capabilities of wizards and of rogues. Which is to say, extracting a single spell should require weeks of game time.


Once you change a wizard from Batman into "choose 5 L1 spells out of 8 known", the sorcerer's innate abilities look a lot better.

Would this mean that the only way to effectively fill up a book is either pay out a crap load of gold and other spells or pray your next loot drop has scrolls?

[Andion Isurand]

More sorcerer only spells would be ideal imo.

[Shining Wrath]

Would this mean that the only way to effectively fill up a book is either pay out a crap load of gold and other spells or pray your next loot drop has scrolls?

Worse than that. Scroll spells are not the spell-book form, but a simpler one, and can't be copied over.

So the Sorcerer has N spells, a fixed list, cast S times per day. The Wizard has X spells, X > N, cast W times per day, W < S. But rather than the Batman situation where X = infinity, instead X = twice N or thrice N, but not 10 N.

It's still the same basic dynamic as now, but the Wizard's flexibility is diminished by not having access to everything in the PHB + MSC + Splat. And a Wizard now must choose between buying items or spells, while the sorcerer can compensate for lack of flexibility by buying items.

It's a pretty simple idea, and it works fairly well, and it is consistent with at least some fantasy universes.

[Auramis]

Worse than that. Scroll spells are not the spell-book form, but a simpler one, and can't be copied over.

So the Sorcerer has N spells, a fixed list, cast S times per day. The Wizard has X spells, X > N, cast W times per day, W < S. But rather than the Batman situation where X = infinity, instead X = twice N or thrice N, but not 10 N.

It's still the same basic dynamic as now, but the Wizard's flexibility is diminished by not having access to everything in the PHB + MSC + Splat. And a Wizard now must choose between buying items or spells, while the sorcerer can compensate for lack of flexibility by buying items.

It's a pretty simple idea, and it works fairly well, and it is consistent with at least some fantasy universes.

I just remembered that the default spellbook in the player's handbook is 100 pages. Would making a wizard be limited to 100 pages of text be too much, or does that sound right? Each spell takes 1 page per level, so I assume it makes sense to limit them to that many. The semantics of "100 pages front and back or 100 pages with two sides?" are debatable.

[Auramis]

Just did the math. A wizard would actually have less spells with just 100 pages. Front and back, effectively making it "200" pages gives him more spells than the sorcerer, but my brother feels that's too little compared to the sorcerer's "150 pages" worth.

[Telonius]

Sorcerer: hit die improves to d6. Add UMD and Diplomacy as class skills. 4+Int skill points per level. Gain proficiency in one martial weapon of your choice. Metamagic does not take any longer than regular casting. Free Metamagic feats at the levels Wizard would normally get a bonus feat. Free Improved Familiar at 8th. Advanced Learning at 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 (can learn a single spell up to highest level you can cast, from any spell list). Same spell progression as Wizard.

Wizard: lose metamagic as an option for the bonus feats (crafting and spell mastery still apply).

End result: Sorcerer turns into the Metamagic specialist and gets a bunch of goodies. Most importantly, more spell options that the Wizard just doesn't have, plus a greater ability to UMD utility spells. Bonus: there's now some reason to stick with the class to level 20. (Maybe not outweighing the benefits of a PrC, but an extra 9th level spell known is a lot more than nothing). The Wizard takes a subtle reduction in power and versatility, since it'll be harder to stack on metamagic if you don't have the feats.

[Shining Wrath]

Sorcerer: hit die improves to d6. Add UMD and Diplomacy as class skills. 4+Int skill points per level. Gain proficiency in one martial weapon of your choice. Metamagic does not take any longer than regular casting. Free Metamagic feats at the levels Wizard would normally get a bonus feat. Free Improved Familiar at 8th. Advanced Learning at 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 (can learn a single spell up to highest level you can cast, from any spell list). Same spell progression as Wizard.

Wizard: lose metamagic as an option for the bonus feats (crafting and spell mastery still apply).

End result: Sorcerer turns into the Metamagic specialist and gets a bunch of goodies. Most importantly, more spell options that the Wizard just doesn't have, plus a greater ability to UMD utility spells. Bonus: there's now some reason to stick with the class to level 20. (Maybe not outweighing the benefits of a PrC, but an extra 9th level spell known is a lot more than nothing). The Wizard takes a subtle reduction in power and versatility, since it'll be harder to stack on metamagic if you don't have the feats.

I am not certain the way to go is to raise Tier II to Tier I. Fewer game-breaking spells may be better for most DMs.

[ahenobarbi]

It's really not hard.

Go back to Gygax's idea that wizards are supremely jealous and just DO NOT SHARE SPELLS.


You can't buy new ones at any price.
NPC Wizards won't share their spells for anything less than 3 or 4 equivalent spells plus lots of gold, unless you've saved their lives, in which case they might come down to 2 to 1.
Wizards value their spell books above all else and any spell book you find is going to be trapped upon the traps with traps guarding the traps that you have to open to get to the traps. And those traps are going to be designed by someone who is EXTREMELY familiar with both the capabilities of wizards and of rogues. Which is to say, extracting a single spell should require weeks of game time.


Once you change a wizard from Batman into "choose 5 L1 spells out of 8 known", the sorcerer's innate abilities look a lot better.

And cry in the corner when a player uses easy bake wizard (6 new known spells each level, more at level 1, no spell book, no familiar).

Or you know, a cleric. Or a druid. Who get all spells known, no spell book needed.

[Valanarch]

Make the sorcerer spells know be the ones that they get each level, like the Wizard gets spells at each level. Allow Sorcerers to learn spells from scrolls, but not have to use spellbooks. Wizards are still more versatile and get bonus feats, but it is possible for Sorcerers to expand their versatiliy.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Sorcerer: hit die improves to d6. Add UMD and Diplomacy as class skills. 4+Int skill points per level. Gain proficiency in one martial weapon of your choice. Metamagic does not take any longer than regular casting. Free Metamagic feats at the levels Wizard would normally get a bonus feat. Free Improved Familiar at 8th. Advanced Learning at 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 (can learn a single spell up to highest level you can cast, from any spell list). Same spell progression as Wizard.

Wizard: lose metamagic as an option for the bonus feats (crafting and spell mastery still apply).

End result: Sorcerer turns into the Metamagic specialist and gets a bunch of goodies. Most importantly, more spell options that the Wizard just doesn't have, plus a greater ability to UMD utility spells. Bonus: there's now some reason to stick with the class to level 20. (Maybe not outweighing the benefits of a PrC, but an extra 9th level spell known is a lot more than nothing). The Wizard takes a subtle reduction in power and versatility, since it'll be harder to stack on metamagic if you don't have the feats.

This is actually very similar to what I do - HD to d6, add a couple of social skills (along with 4+Int skills), free Rapid Metamagic feat and the same spell progression. I also give them the wizard bonus feats (metamagic or heritage) and Eschew Materials at first.

[visigani]

How to balance the two?

Sorcerer casting stays the same. They add diplomacy, sense motive, intimidate, and Use Magic Device to their class skill list. They receive 4 skill points per level.

They may cast in light armor without fear of arcane spell failure.

3/4 BAB.

d6 hp.

Sorc's choice: Familiar, Animal Companion + Wild Empathy, Special Mount as Paladin, or may cast metamagic with no increased casting time.

Bonus Heritage Feat: One of Celestial, Draconic, Fey, Fiendish, Infernal, or Illithid at levels 1, 4, 8, 12, 16, 20.

Arcane Mystery: Sorcerers use the Shadowcaster method for determining the nature of their effects. The highest three levels of spells for a Sorcerer are arcane spells as normal, the next three levels of spells are cast as spell like abilities, and the lowest three levels of spells are cast as supernatural abilities. For example, a 20th level sorcerer's 9th, 8th, and 7th level spells would be cast as spells as normal. Her 6th, 5th, and 4th level spells would be cast as spell like abilities, and her 3rd, 2nd, and 1st level of spells would be cast as supernatural abilities.

[Auramis]

I am not certain the way to go is to raise Tier II to Tier I. Fewer game-breaking spells may be better for most DMs.

I'm with Wrath on this. Don't look at the sorcerer as being gimpy, look at the wizard as being too powerful.

That said, I do like the idea of sorcerers getting access to bloodline stuff.

[Quellian-dyrae]

Taking ONLY sorcerer and wizard into account with no regards to balance with other classes:

Both classes use the Wizard spell/day progression.

Sorcerer Spells Known is equal to its spells per day. This includes bonus spells for a high Charisma modifier. This likewise automatically has them both gaining new spell levels on odd levels.

Remove the full-round casting time for metamagic.

Give the sorcerer Eschew Materials at first level, bonus Metamagic or Reserve feat every fifth level.

Give the sorcerer two more skill points, and Diplomacy, Intimidate, Disguise, and Gather Information as class skills, to make up for the less valuable casting stat.

Allow sorcerers to specialize in a school, same as wizards.

I'm not getting into ACFs, but at this stage the great majority should be viable to both classes.

Wizards no longer have to keep a spellbook. While recovering expended spells works like normal (one hour of study and preparation after eight hours of rest), actually changing which spells are prepared requires research. Each day of research allows the wizard to change a total number of spell levels worth of spells equal to half its Intelligence modifier. This research requires access to a well-stocked library. Typically libraries are made available by master wizards, arcane colleges, mage guilds, and so on (these shouldn't involve any meaningful cost that can't be glossed over with periodic spell selling and the like, but may be good fodder for adventure hooks; it more makes it so a wizard can't just change spells in the middle of a dungeon without problem). A wizard can also gather its own personal library, which costs gold equal to the library's maximum spell level squared times 2,000 (so a personal library allowing research into third level spells costs 18,000 gold to assemble). Generally speaking, the weight of a library's books is its maximum spell level squared times 100 pounds, so making it portable is challenging.

Once per day, a wizard may spontaneously cast a single spell that it does not currently have prepared or that it has already expended, at the expense of another prepared spell or equal or higher level. It may only do so for a spell no higher level than half its Intelligence modifier.

--

So, the end differences between them:

Slightly different bonus feats (if reserve feats are wizard bonus feats, remove that stipulation).

Wizards get more skill points due to Int and have all Knowledge skills. Sorcerers get more base skill points and have better access to social skills.

The big difference is, while both classes have the same number of spells available and spell slots, wizards can change their spells (less easily in general than normal, but the once per day spontaneous cast lets them pull off a "right trick for the job" occasionally...just not "every right trick for every job we're going to be facing as long as I know about it nine hours in advance"), and sorcerers can cast their known spells as long as they have the spell slots, but can't easily change them (myself, I'd probably also add something to the effect of, both classes can completely change their spells known/prepared on gaining a level, but that's because I think retraining should be easier in general).

[StreamOfTheSky]

Do you want to buff the sorcerer or nerf the wizard? Because it won't take much in either direction to equalize the two.

Nerf the wizard. If any suggestion or any result of this theorycrafting results in one iota of improvement for the sorcerer, it is a complete failure. Full stop.

Tier 2 is still grossly overpowered. All the attempts to buff the sorcerer because he's weaker than the wizard (boo freaking hoo!) are ridiculous and rage-inducing.

[Fyermind]

Wizards have to have their spellbook open to the spell they want to cast in order to cast it. This takes both hands, and it there is a limit to how fast they can find spells based on their CLASS level.

Give sorcerers a bonus feat at second level and every three levels thereafter from the draconic heritage line. Knock their spells known down by 1 per level to make up for the extra effects from draconic heritage.

Ban Celerity line so the sorcerers don't dominate too hard.

[Fouredged Sword]

I am a fan of having sorcerers use the spell point system, though the extra skill points and social skills sounds like a strong suggestion to tack on as well.

Also, maybe 3/4th bab and casting in light armor after 8th level or so.

[DR27]

Nerf the wizard. If any suggestion or any result of this theorycrafting results in one iota of improvement for the sorcerer, it is a complete failure. Full stop.

Tier 2 is still grossly overpowered. All the attempts to buff the sorcerer because he's weaker than the wizard (boo freaking hoo!) are ridiculous and rage-inducing.+1, but so far it sounds like majority in this thread favor nonsense Sorcerer buffs over nerfing both down to T3. (Or T2, but I don't think that's far enough)

[Telonius]

+1, but so far it sounds like majority in this thread favor nonsense Sorcerer buffs over nerfing both down to T3. (Or T2, but I don't think that's far enough)

I'd love to try that, but... it would involve either a) building an entirely new spellcasting system, b) going over literally hundreds of spells and adjusting/nerfing all of them, or c) nerfing magic (in general) so hard that both classes are going to suck - such as "spells take a number of rounds equal to their level to cast" (an actual suggestion I've seen in some threads).

Nobody really wants to do C. B and A require way too much time or effort. So minor wizard nerfs and sorcerer buffs is all we're likely to see.

[aleucard]

Nerf the wizard. If any suggestion or any result of this theorycrafting results in one iota of improvement for the sorcerer, it is a complete failure. Full stop.

Tier 2 is still grossly overpowered. All the attempts to buff the sorcerer because he's weaker than the wizard (boo freaking hoo!) are ridiculous and rage-inducing.

The reason that I am allowing people to bump sorcerer to T1 in this is because T1 is still playable by a knowledgeable person. Granted, it can break the game over its knee by accident, but they aren't existentially game-breaking. A lot of games that aren't being played intentionally low-power hover around the T2 mark on average, and T1 doesn't put them over the rest of the party THAT much in that case. I would prefer ways to lower both classes to T3, though, just because (as I stated before) it's generally the benchmark for truly balanced classes.

I like giving Sorcerers more Skillpoints and more Cha-based class skills, but that's good enough for improvement. Remember that it's already T2 out of the box, and can be easily made T1 with a little thought from existing rules.

[erikun]

If you want to be blunt about it, then give both classes the same spell progression and limit the number of differnet spells a wizard can have in their spellbook equal to the number of differnet spells a sorcerer can know. It's crude and uninteresting, but makes them equal.

Of course, my preferred option is just remove the sorcerer and replace it with something more interesting.


Just did the math. A wizard would actually have less spells with just 100 pages. Front and back, effectively making it "200" pages gives him more spells than the sorcerer, but my brother feels that's too little compared to the sorcerer's "150 pages" worth.
A spellbook has "100 pages". A spell uses "1 page per spell level". In both cases, the definition of a "page" is the same.

If you interpret a 100 page spellbook to have "200 pages, front and back" then that just means that each 1st level spell takes up "2 pages, front and back" each, because that's how you've interpreted the term "page".

[Quellian-dyrae]

To balance them at least half-decently with other Tier 3 classes, while I'll stick with my previous adjustments, I'd also add the following:

First, the nerfs:

Characters only gain access to higher-level spells every three character levels (so, second level spells at 4th, third level at 7th, etc). High-level slots can be used to prepare/cast lower level spells, or for metamagic.

Blah blah blah, less raw power, top-level spells get pushed to epic territory. You still need most of your levels in an actual casting class to get your higher level spell slots, but since actual maximum spell level is character level based, you can actually afford a bit of multiclassing.

Remove bonus spells prepared/known/per day from high ability scores.

Less versatility, fewer spell uses per day. Boring but useful.

Spells with a casting time of a standard action that affect areas or multiple targets now become one full round.

Big gun combat spells have a chance to be interrupted, can't end a fight on the first round.

Summoned creatures, and Called creatures that function as minions (see below) lose access to their spells, spell-like abilities, and any summoning or calling abilities they possess.

No using one spell to get many, Wish-type stuff aside.

Polymorph spells are replaced outright by the Pathfinder Polymorph rules.

No comment necessary.

Shadow spells are removed (but see below).

Again, no using one spell to get many.

You may only "actively control" a maximum effective EL of minions (summons, called creatures, dominated opponents, animated undead, whatever) equal to your own EL - 2. You can have as many minions as you want, but minions that aren't actively controlled won't travel with you or help you in encounters unless directly targeted (and even then they're more likely to flee or surrender). Note that creatures that you call by magic and then convince to help you by purely mundane means don't count as minions for this purpose. Minions don't count against your limit during the encounter you acquired them in. If you concentrate, you can actively control your full EL in minions, and your minion limits are relaxed at your home base (no, you can't just arbitrarily declare a place a home base).

More bodies on the field are powerful. This ensures you're not able to just roll out an army, but still lets you, say, have a network of dominated contacts, or an army of undead rampaging across the countryside or guarding your lair, or actually call forth powerful extraplanar creatures and try to convince them to help you, etc.

Spells that render the target unable to take standard actions or place the target under the caster's control work as follows:


Latence is a measure of the spell's power to affect the target. If the target succeeds its saving throw, the Latence is equal to the caster's level, but cannot push a character above its Resistance Threshold (excess Latence is lost). If the target fails its saving throw, the Latence is equal to 1d6 per caster level, and the target must save again or take the Latence again, continuing to do so until it succeeds a save or suffers the spell's full effect. Abilities like Mettle and Evasion only apply to the first save. Latence lasts for the spell's normal duration.

A character's Resistance Threshold is how much Latence it can withstand. Resistance Threshold is equal to the character's current hit points plus its temporary hit points minus its current nonlethal damage.

If the combined total of Latence from all such spells on the target ever exceeds its Resistance Threshold, the target must accept the effect of one or more such spells; it chooses which spells it suffers the effects of, and the Latence of those spells is removed. It must continue accepting effects until its Latence is below its Resistance Threshold. Once a spell effect is accepted, it lasts for the remainder of its normal duration, even if the targets Resistance Threshold improves by other means.

You can still potentially bring a target down with a single spell, but not, necessarily, with a single failed save. This also makes save-or-lose type stuff actually interact with the hit point system rather than bypassing it entirely.

Spells that cause negative effects other than damage generally allow saving throws. Spells that already allow saves use them normally. Spells that previously did not allow saves are modified as follows:


If the spell required an attack roll, touch or otherwise, remove it. It now allows a Reflex save to negate. Single target spells of this nature are still considered weapon-like spells.

If the spell affects one or more targets, or affects everyone in an area at the moment of casting, it now allows a relevant save, either to negate or to reduce Latence.

If the spell persists over an area for a duration, anyone within the area at the moment of casting may make a Reflex save to ignore its effects until the end of their next turn. Those who have not exited the area by then, or who enter later, are affected normally.

Casters have to play by the rules. They already get to choose between targeting three defenses, that's plenty of weak point.

Any spell that allows a saving throw or deals damage is subject to Spell Resistance. If the spell did not previously allow Spell Resistance, treat a success by Spell Resistance as equivalent to a successful saving throw.

Because the ways around it are starting to get silly now...

Spells that would provide a +10 or higher bonus to a skill, or basically automatically succeed at a task normally performed by a skill, now provide the following benefits:


The caster may substitute its ranks in Spellcraft for its skill ranks, and the spell level for its ability modifier on the skill (or for the target's ranks/modifier as appropriate).

Performing the skill check with the spell removes any mundane requirements of the skill, as well as any situational penalties. For example, an Invisible character can hide while being observed, without cover or concealment, and doesn't take a penalty for movement or attacking (although of course, without Greater Invisibility, attacking would break the spell). Likewise, a Knock spell requires no tools to open a lock.

The character can take 10 on the skill check even while rushed or threatened.

Effects that don't involve skill-based actions directly (such as Glibness letting you avoid lie-detection magic) work as normal.

Then, a few buffs:

Arcane casters can, as a standard action, project a blast of magical energy at Medium range. This deals 1d6 points of damage per two class levels, plus the character's casting modifier. A Reflex save negates the damage entirely. This is a spell-like ability. As a swift action, this damage can be added to an instantaneous direct damage spell (once per target per spell); metamagic does not modify this damage.

Divine casters have a similar ability, but it provides temporary hit points which cannot exceed the total damage the target has sustained (alternately, they can heal nonlethal damage). These temporary hit points last for one hour, don't stack, and at the end of the hour are converted to actual healing. Each point of healing received while they last converts two such points to another point of healing (this is not recursive). As a swift action, this can be added to an instantaneous hit point healing spell (once per target per spell), in which case it simply adds to the hit points healed; metamagic does not modify this healing.

Should bring healing and blasting more up to parity, and gives casters something to do when they don't want to waste spells.

Spell save DCs are now calculated as 10 + 1/2 character level + casting modifier.

Since higher level spells are pushed out, and ways around saves don't work now, and a single save is a lot less likely to outright end an enemy, it's important that saves be level-appropriate. Also makes casters somewhat more multiclassing friendly.

New feat, Shadow Magic:

Shadow Magic

Your figments can create quasi-real effects.

Prerequisites: At least one Illusion (Figment) spell known or prepared.

Benefit: You may cast an Illusion (Figment) spell you know or have prepared, and duplicate the effects of another spell you know or have prepared (or have expended), even a higher-level one. Anyone who is affected by or interacts with the spell at all must roll a Will save against it. You automatically succeed all such Will saves, and others may not choose to fail it intentionally. The target receives any normal saving throws in addition to this one.

If the save succeeds, the target recognizes the effect as quasi-real, and reduces its effectiveness (following the rules of Shadow Conjuration) by 25% per spell level the figment is lower than the emulated spell. For each 25% reduction, the target also receives +2 on other saving throws against the spell, and a successful save against the emulated effect allows the target to ignore the spell outright, even if a successful save would normally entail a reduced effect. If there are no numeric effects of the spell to reduce, the target simply has the listed percentage chance to completely ignore the spell, if the Will save succeeds.

If the figment is more than four levels lower than the emulated spell, each additional level lower provides a +4 bonus on the Will save.

So that Shadow Magic isn't completely removed.

[aleucard]

Personally, summoning as a whole was pretty much borked from word Go. I would probably prefer summoning to take cues from things such as Naruto or Final Fantasy; I'll explain my thoughts below.


Regular, plain-jane summoning like what we have now summons mindless, largely physical mooks like you describe. Some might have magical abilities, but unless fighting a horde or something so horrifically large that keeping its attention spinning in circles is a good idea, you're better served doing that yourself. The main benefit here is throwing distractions at the opponent. Not particularly strong, but if ignored an opponent's liable to regret it.


Contract Summoning (a la Naruto) allows a player (or special npc at the DM's discretion) to connect with a family of largely similar creatures and bargain/plead/negotiate/etc. for the right to sign their contract. The specific rules of this will vary depending on who it is (though alignment-specific contracts will only allow themselves to be summoned for things within 1 step of their alignment (think similar to how Deities work for clerics)), but the general idea remains. To summon, a specific Standard Action unique to the contract but identifiable as a Contract Summon by anyone with ranks in Knowledge (Planes) or something (or a low Int check) is required to summon anything, with spell slots/points relevant to the strength of the specific summon being spent. Non-casters might be able to use specific contracts, but the thing spent is liable to be something else (hp perhaps?). Signing more than one contract per person is VERY rare, and requires the specific allowance of both contracted families. Anyone doing it for anything short of a DAMN good in-game reason is liable to piss off both families even to suggest it; being removed and banned from all allies of both families is the least of your concerns.


Unique or Ritual Summoning (a la FF) allows a player (or special npc at the DM's discretion) to, with some form of side-quest related to the specific summon or being contacted by the summon in question, call forth an Aspect of the summon or (with VERY specific prerequisite things being done) the summon itself. The method of being allowed to summon would vary wildly from one Aeon (the species name of the summons themselves; if a better name arrives to you, name it) to another, but there will likely be a soft level prerequisite to actually summon them depending on the Aeon in question. As mentioned, there are 2 forms of summoning of this type.

If you are permitted by the Aeon in question, you can summon an Aspect of theirs as a Full Round Action with a ritual based on the summon in question (you can take AoO with normal spell-failure, you're considered flat-footed until your next turn, and being interrupted dazes you next round), which is instantly recognizable as an attempted Aeon Summoning with any amount of Knowledge (Planes) or a decent Int check. It is painfully obvious that you're doing something though, since a runic array lights up and takes up the floor of whatever space you occupy (if mid-air, the seal moves with you, staying flush with the ground; if interrupted, the seal looks to shatter like glass). Depending on the Aeon and the negotiated Aspect if that option's available, the Aspect could be summoned in any adjacent space that will accommodate it or (since it's essentially a formshift) overlap with the summoner, centering on them as much as possible. The specific Aspect levels with the summoner, with the summoner also being able to select what path of advancement it takes if applicable (some Aeons select for the summoner, some don't, some allow or don't allow at their will).

Summoning the Aeon itself is a massive undertaking, somewhat comparable to incantations as described here; http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm . While it would never take longer than a minute, it MUST be done with the Aeon's permission, which will be obtained or rejected during the casting. Falsehoods of any kind are impossible while doing this, and attempting is a good way to piss off the Aeon in question (exclusive exception being one that values lies like air to breathe, but it's irritating for him/her/it too, in this case). The summoner may otherwise respond normally, but refusing to answer any question may easily result in rejection. Unless if the summoner is outgunned to the point of ridiculousness (a mid-level party surrounded by an army, for example) or something of interest to the Aeon in question is present (someone summons Bahamut because they're about to be 'visited' by Tiamat or one of her higher-tier people, for example), summoning is liable to fail regardless, though if the reason wasn't stupid, they'll generally not be angry with the summoner. Aeons can initiate contact at their discretion in any location that summoning is possible, though this is rare enough that it usually only happens when they want to be summoned. If they are summoned, they are under the DM's control completely, but are either on the summoner's side or allow the summon to go through so they can 'administer chastisement' to the summoner in person. In either case, unless if the summon was going to kill the summoner, they will not allow the summoner to die, and deal with whatever pertinent threat they were called for. The entire negotiation process can take as much time as wanted by the Aeon, but for everyone else it only lasts the time required to summon; success, failure, or retributive failure is administered at the end of the ritual. The ritual may only be stopped by the summoner's death, though sometimes the Aeon completes it themselves for whatever reason (kill whichever person/thing killed the summoner, thank them, etc.).

[Auramis]

A spellbook has "100 pages". A spell uses "1 page per spell level". In both cases, the definition of a "page" is the same.

If you interpret a 100 page spellbook to have "200 pages, front and back" then that just means that each 1st level spell takes up "2 pages, front and back" each, because that's how you've interpreted the term "page".

Huh. Then, for a wizard to have more spells than a sorcerer, he would either need to buy a new spellbook and take care of them both (which, with just the three core rulebooks, is his/her only option if you don't houserule a bigger one) or buy a custom one based on the Complete Arcane (assuming they can find someone who's able/willing to make one).

The more I think about it, it sounds annoying trying to find, keep, and protect your knowledge on casting spells as a wizard. Reminds me why I always preferred playing a sorcerer when I played arcane casters more.

[Katana1515]

Would like to second the idea of implementing the pathfinder Sorcerer if you want to power up sorcerers rather than take down wizards. this is working pretty well in my current group, we brought in the pathfinder classes for quite a few of the base classes we considered underpowered (the paladin in particular benefits from this). Of course this isn't suitable if youre aiming to bring everyone to T3. Its just my players prefer to see weaker classes powered up rather than stronger ones nerfed.

if you dont want to do that, removing the requirement to take a full round action to apply metamagic goes a long way. I see sorcerers as being the masters of altering their spells on the fly and having to take full round actions all the time totally neuters what should have been one of their strengths.