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Lord Raziere
2013-08-08, 05:13 AM
Hey I read that forty-five theses thread.

and I just have an idea.

why not make certain combat spells function like weapons you can equip?

Spell Weapons:
These weapons can only be wielded by someone with Spell Weapon Proficiency,
Wizards, Sorcerers as well as other spellcasting classes automatically gain this feat at first level. Spell Weapons gain bonuses from one's intelligence modifier instead of the strength modifier.

Fireball
Dmg: 1d12 Crit: X3 Range: 30ft Special: Area (This deals damage to everything within ten feet of what it hits)

Lightning
Dmg: 1d10 Crit: X2 Range: 70 ft

Magic Missile
Dmg:1d6 Crit: X2 Range: 50 ft

it puts the spellcasters offensive power equal or at least similar to a fighter or barbarian, simplifies the spells involved, allows the spell to be cast whenever you want, and is easy to make!

or is this doing something bad? it probably is, considering how misunderstanding I can be sometimes, but really, I don't see the problems with doing this.

Edit: Warning, this is not supposed to be slapped onto to existing classes and spellcasting, as it will remove the one weakness a spellcaster has, you have been warned.

Mangles
2013-08-08, 05:26 AM
Spell casters don't need the boost. They can already deal all the damage they need if they want. More over they can do every other role already too. Why make their least effective role in the party, the one that a bunch of other non-casters can only fill effectively, another strong point from level 1.

You also have now given them infinite casting, something a warlock has at the cost of versatility. At better damage than any other class has at level 1 and at range not melee.

This is not balanced, nor necessary.

Lord Raziere
2013-08-08, 05:39 AM
:(((((((((

sorry, this would mostly be intended to be integrated into a fixed magic system in general.

maybe we can be a little more flexible? perhaps a transformed beast claws can act as a weapon, and for the wizard to fully transform into a beast, they need to both purchase armor and a weapon to model them shapeshifting?

and perhaps transmutation effects can be made into a more gradual effect, instead of instantly killing thing, they just gradually turn things to stone and that is expressed as damage in the system?

like this:

Disintegrate
Dmg: 2d6 Crit: X3 Range: 40ft

Transmute to Stone:
Dmg: 1d8 Crit: X2 Range: 20 ft

Beast Claws
Dmg: 1d8 Crit: X2

Beast Hide
AC: +2 Speed: 30ft

I mean, the spell is just as damaging as any normal class now, all that would be needed to do next is figure out how to balance the rest of the system so that the wizard could still be utility while contributing to combat some.

lesser_minion
2013-08-08, 05:54 AM
Its not a bad idea, but it needs to be fleshed out a lot more before we can really comment -- how doe casters obtain these weapons, for example? Should they have higher base attack bonus and the like so that they can use them effectively?

If we're treating spells as weapons, then fireball should probably be treated as a splash weapon. The only reason that wasn't the case before was that "casters are speshul" or some such bollocks.


Spell casters don't need the boost.

So? This is, I presume, intended to be part of a complete breakfast. And having much shorter ranges and needing to roll to hit is actually a fairly hefty nerf.


They can already deal all the damage they need if they want. More over they can do every other role already too. Why make their least effective role in the party, the one that a bunch of other non-casters can only fill effectively, another strong point from level 1.

I'd assume that you're expected to actually learn fireball before you can use it like this.


You also have now given them infinite casting, something a warlock has at the cost of versatility.

Spells per day aren't actually very significant as a limiting factor for spells.


At better damage than any other class has at level 1 and at range not melee.

As I said earlier, seems to me like at level 1 you're plinking away with a d6 magic missile, which is also weaker than the spell in many respects.

Lord Raziere
2013-08-08, 06:04 AM
hmmm…

well they could obtain them like any other weapon- you pay for it like you pay for an axe. they would probably be quite bit more expensive though.

or as you said, we could just set them to be gainable only at certain levels, perhaps a limited amount of spell weapon slots, and that you can only choose a limited amount of them? hrm probably would have to be small, like like only 3 or 4 at most. maybe.

hmmm….I wouldn't know about the base attack bonus. too high and whats the difference between them and fighters? too low and they are probably ineffective or something. hrm.

this idea definitely needs fleshing out….

Mangles
2013-08-08, 06:58 AM
Maybe I'm just jaded, but anything that allows a caster to steal another party members role makes me super wary. It could be a knee jerk reaction, but that's the way I am with gifts to those that have the goods already.

Lord Raziere
2013-08-08, 07:35 AM
it was intended to be a debuff, sorry……..:smalleek:

TKXapathy
2013-08-08, 08:05 AM
I really love the concept, but I don't think it fits into the dnd3.5 magic system as it is right now.

A way to fit this into the system, if you really want to, is to make it a part of a battle mage-type prestige class that can sacrifice spell slots for 'spell weapons'.

Mangles
2013-08-08, 08:14 AM
no need to apologise, your intentions weren't a "I should have all the power in my new game, look at my homebrew that I'm going to steal the spotlight with." That would require an apology. Preferably to the DM and players.

This has good intentions but needs to be fleshed out A lot. Let's have a look at it. Warlocks can cast a bolt at will and also get 1 spell at will. In a work day there are 3 encounters and sorcerers have 8 spells, wizards 4. A warlock will probably cast their utility spell somewhere in that range and also have the combat blast. SOOO....Giving a caster a 1d6 blast 30 foot range at will would not be unbalanced.

The warlock will still get his thing of upgrading his blast and always at wills, the true casters will still have cherry picking goodness. The best way to implement this would be to create a level 1 spell that does it so the caster is giving something up for it.

------------------------------------------------

Warlocks Blast
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 30 ft.
Effect: Ability to launch one bolt of magic per round dealing 1d6 damage.
Duration: 24 hours.
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

A magic surrounds your hands empowering them with the ability to strike at a distance with your magic. This allows you to cast a bolt that deals 1d6 points of magic damage as a standard action, for the duration of the spell. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. You must have your focus in hand to cast the bolt, however it need not be with you at all times. If it is further than 30 feet away at any stage than the spell ends early.

Focus
A rune stone.

------------------------------------------------

This spell will replace the crossbow that just about every caster gets at level 1. It deals slightly less damage but no reloading needed ever. Seems like a good trade. The cost of one spell known and one spell cast a day seems a fair trade for the warlock only knowing one spell besides this.

The unfortunate thing is this spell is still not balanced. You can cast a maximised version of this as a 4th level spell at 8th level and do 6d6 damage. Which is the average damage of a 10th level warlock. This is the problem with making it a spell I guess instead of a weapon.
The above is wrong, and so is the conclusion it draws.

As a weapon I guess it would be something more like this

Rune bolt.
Exotic Ranged Weapon
Cost: 50 gp
Damage: 1d6
Critical: ×2
Range: 30 ft.
Weight: 0.5 lb.
Damage type: Magic
Special: Casters magical abilities give them proficiency in this weapon.

Vadskye
2013-08-08, 12:44 PM
Did you see the Arcane Invocations section of The Spell Reformation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=296817)? Your idea is essentially the same approach that I took. I said that they should be given as class features, but it's similar (and a little less disruptive) to make them special spells like you're doing here.

Mangles, I'd you're right that just slapping at-will abilities onto existing casters would remove the one weakness that casters have and only increase the degree to which they are overpowered. But at the same time, I think it's an important part of an overall balance change.

Lord Raziere
2013-08-08, 04:23 PM
so yeah….my idea is in the right direction, but only works if the rest of the stuff is good to.

nevermind then, I'll leave this sort of stuff to the experts.

Vadskye
2013-08-08, 04:35 PM
so yeah….my idea is in the right direction, but only works if the rest of the stuff is good to.

nevermind then, I'll leave this sort of stuff to the experts.
:smallfrown: Homebrewing should not be just for experts! You had exactly the same idea I had and chose a different way to implement it that integrates more seamlessly with a normal spell system. There's nothing wrong with that.

Also, I misinterpreted what the title meant before reading the page and it gave me a fun idea for a metamagic feat/item that lets you smash a spell into weaponized form. Imagine wielding a Sword of Fireball: if you hit someone with it, a Fireball goes off!

Lord Raziere
2013-08-08, 04:55 PM
hm, ok if you insist.

hm, ok I think I'm starting to have an idea for this.

perhaps spellcasters can have consistent spells weapons like, ones they can always cast, but they must purchase them from a non-renewable pool of magic points, and they have different costs.

for example, magic missile might cost 1 point, while fireball might cost 3 points or something like that, this allows the spellcasters to have consistent spells, while still have an opportunity cost for them- if you want more powerful consistent spells, you have to pay higher costs for them, and therefore gain less to choose from.

Vadskye
2013-08-08, 04:58 PM
It has the potential to be an interesting system. I'd recommend doing some research to see if anything similar already exists, and then write up what exactly you're proposing.

Lord Raziere
2013-08-08, 04:59 PM
ok, cool.

also, edited first post to put in a warning, to clear it up a little.

Amnoriath
2013-08-08, 06:04 PM
Hey I read that forty-five theses thread.

and I just have an idea.

why not make certain combat spells function like weapons you can equip?

Spell Weapons:
These weapons can only be wielded by someone with Spell Weapon Proficiency,
Wizards, Sorcerers as well as other spellcasting classes automatically gain this feat at first level. Spell Weapons gain bonuses from one's intelligence modifier instead of the strength modifier.

Fireball
Dmg: 1d12 Crit: X3 Range: 30ft Special: Area (This deals damage to everything within ten feet of what it hits)

Lightning
Dmg: 1d10 Crit: X2 Range: 70 ft

Magic Missile
Dmg:1d6 Crit: X2 Range: 50 ft

it puts the spellcasters offensive power equal or at least similar to a fighter or barbarian, simplifies the spells involved, allows the spell to be cast whenever you want, and is easy to make!

or is this doing something bad? it probably is, considering how misunderstanding I can be sometimes, but really, I don't see the problems with doing this.

Edit: Warning, this is not supposed to be slapped onto to existing classes and spellcasting, as it will remove the one weakness a spellcaster has, you have been warned.
You may want to look at spellshaping.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224508

Amridell
2013-08-08, 11:34 PM
I really love the concept, but I don't think it fits into the dnd3.5 magic system as it is right now.

A way to fit this into the system, if you really want to, is to make it a part of a battle mage-type prestige class that can sacrifice spell slots for 'spell weapons'.

This. All of my yes. The spell made need a heft nerf, first, though.

ironwizard
2013-08-09, 01:22 AM
I like the idea. I'd love to see the final product. As a personal preference, I prefer to have a little less raw power, but be able to do something every round. Low level casters (particularly prepared) aren't much fun IMHO, because once you blow your one or two spells, you get to sit out (firing a crossbow does not constitute interesting play) A few low power always available spells would be welcome, and helps get away from the weakness of the spell slot system.

Perhaps, and this is thinking long term and far more general, casters could sacrifice spell slots permanently in exchange for at-wills. Similar to Innate Spell, but more utility, and available earlier on.

Oops. That's exactly what Reserve Metamagic is. Never mind (though the feats may provide some insight/inspiration?)

Xerlith
2013-08-09, 02:27 AM
This has been done by the Wizards themselves: http://dndtools.eu/feats/categories/reserve/
Also, Pathfiner uses unlimited cantrips that may be like that.
Finally, Warlocks posess this ability anyway.

Lord Raziere
2013-08-09, 03:19 AM
….yes. keep linking to stuff already done. keep up the good work on making me feel inadequate. why are you even posting in here if all your going to do is link me to the works of those who did what I already did, but better? so that I can give this up and just use the stuff that everyone else does? I mean whats the point of making it, if people are just gonna go link to and mention things that are better done, so that they will go use them instead? my idea is undeveloped after all, whats the point when there is already better stuff there?

I might as well just change the title to "Spell Weapon Links Thread"

Xerlith
2013-08-09, 10:38 AM
Well, I'm sorry to hear that this is how you take it, but, to put it bluntly, it's just the ninth rule of homebrewing (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2202.0) in motion.

As it was said before - this is a neat idea for a prestige class and something a Warmage would probably make a fun combo with.

Amnoriath
2013-08-09, 01:19 PM
….yes. keep linking to stuff already done. keep up the good work on making me feel inadequate. why are you even posting in here if all your going to do is link me to the works of those who did what I already did, but better? so that I can give this up and just use the stuff that everyone else does? I mean whats the point of making it, if people are just gonna go link to and mention things that are better done, so that they will go use them instead? my idea is undeveloped after all, whats the point when there is already better stuff there?

I might as well just change the title to "Spell Weapon Links Thread"

This isn't my point I gave you my link because I thought it would interest you. I don't believe that makes you absolete, just give you some ideas to grow your own.

ironwizard
2013-08-09, 02:12 PM
</snip>

...provide some insight/inspiration?)
(emphasis added)

:D