[3.5] Wizard dipping Cloistered Cleric

[Sylian]

Hey. So I'm making a Focus Specialist Conjurer who uses Transmutation as a secondary school, and with Evocation, Illusion, and Necromancy banned. He is taking two flaws, one of them Actor which gives him a +2 bonus to Bluff and Bluff, Disguise and Perform as class skills, and he's also taking Nymph's Kiss, Sacred Vow and Vow of Nonviolence. I traded my familiar for Abrubt Jaunt. We start at level 5.

The rest of the party are: A Crusader focused on tripping, and a Focused Specialist Evoker who uses Necromancy as a secondary school, who later goes into Incantatrix, and a Beguiler.

So, yeah, we'll be using a lot of wands to get rid of energy damage, hit point damage, diseases and such things. The issue is, however, that the Beguiler is a Whisper Gnome with 6 Charisma, so using wands won't be very easy for him, even with Use Magic Device maxed out.

I consider the party moderately optimized. Recently, I've considered a 1-level dip into Cloistered Cleric, at first level. It gives me 16 extra skill points, including Diplomacy for a level, so I'll put 4 ranks there, giving me a quite nice Diplomacy score overall, plus the rest most likely in Knowledge and perhaps some Speak Languages. It gives me three Domains, one of which is the Knowledge Domain. It also gives me a few level 1 and level 0 Cleric spells. If I have 12 Wisdom, I get three level 1 spells in total. The ability to use Divine Wands is really useful, too. Oh, and I gain 2 extra hit points, which is nice.

But I lose a caster level for Wizard, and I get less Wizard spells. Is it worth it? Also, which Domains do you think are worth it? We're playing Forgotten Realms, though maybe I could talk the DM into adding splashbook Domains to deities if it makes sense. The DM is in general pretty open to books as long as they're official and make sense.

Oh, and my character is Chaotic Good, so the deity should be Neutral Good or Chaotic Good. We use 32 point build.

[hymer]

If you have both cleric and wizard spell lists, you have something like 90% of spells covered, so you shouldn't be having problems with using wands without UMD.
Don't forget that the -2 charisma is also a hit to your diplomacy. Having a total of +2 to diplomacy couldn't hurt, but it's not exactly huge.

Personally, I wouldn't take the cleric dip, though it's one of the best dips available. Only if I'm aiming for something specific would I not go all-out on advancing my casting. I'd let the beguiler handle the cure and restore wands, they have UMD as a class skill and plenty of skill points. Probably diplomacy, too. Ask the beguiler player what they're planning on.

[Sylian]

My character is not the Whisper Gnome. I'll have 10-12 Charisma, and Sacred Vow gives +2, and Nymph's Kiss gives +2, and Bluff gives a +2 synergy bonus, and potentially also Knowledge: (nobility and royalty) for another +2 bonus, for a total of +10-13 with 4 ranks.

The Whisper Gnome will have a +6 bonus to Use Magic Device, meaning that he'll have to roll 14 to activate a wand. If he rolls a 1, he can't activate that wand for the next 24 hours.

[hymer]

Ah, my bad. Still, ask the player what he's planning on. It's not impossible to overcome the -2.

[Mnemnosyne]

If you're going to do it, get the most out of it you can: take the cleric level as a Cleric of Mystra, pick the magic domain, and go into Dweomerkeeper. Advance your wizard casting with Dweomerkeeper.

[Sylian]

I'm looking into the Dweomerkeeper. Should I go Cloistered Cleric 1/Wizard 5/Dweomerkeeper 10, in that case? Is Dweomerkeeper really worth it? Having a free Stone Skin and being able to cast Permanency without paying gold/xp once per day could be really useful...

Oh, and this campaign probably won't last longer than around level 12-14, but who knows, maybe it'll last longer?

[Mnemnosyne]

Yeah, supernatural spell is definitely worthwhile. Especially if you use it with Limited Wish, to avoid the xp cost. Especially since it gives you access to spells from your three banned schools of 5th level and lower (or 4th if they're from another class).

And yeah, I'd put Cloistered Cleric at level 1 if you're taking that route, so that you get x4 on the higher skill points it provides. If you're taking the 5th level of Wizard, I assume it's for Spontaneous Divination, which I agree is worth it, so yeah. CCleric 1/Wiz 5/Dweomerkeeper 10.

[Sylian]

It's actually for the free metamagic feat. Since my two flaw-feats are used for Actor (to get bluff) and Nymph's Kiss, and level 1 is Sacred Vow and 3 is Vow of Nonviolence, I need the Wizard bonus feat in order to qualify for the prestige class. One alternative would be to take Vow of Nonviolence at level 6 and a metamagic feat at level 3, but that would leave me even more starved for feats.

I wonder if this is all worth it, though? Hmm. I won't get Supernatural Spell until level 10, which might take a while for this campaign. Are the other class abilities strong enough for it to be worth it for me to take this PrC?

[Mnemnosyne]

Worth the cleric dip? Probably not. But if you're doing the cleric dip anyway, probably yes. Mantle of spells is very solid - put a useful spell on that and you can spontaneously convert into it. Pick great spells that you use every day but don't know how often you will need, and you never have to memorize them again or waste a slot at the end of the day because you memorized too many copies.

As for spontaneous divination, I would really go for taking the metamagic feat at 3 and delaying the vow. Spontaneously having every divination spell on tap is probably the best ACF a wizard can get, especially since it gives all divination spells, not just all sorcerer/wizard divination spells.

[Sylian]

I'm not sure if I want to do the cleric dip or not. You don't think it's worth it? Spontaneous Divination is not so hot because the DM rules that I have to know the spell in order to cast it, which means that I have to spend money to get it into my spellbook. Granted, Unluck is a really nice spell, so perhaps I could pick up a few more and it'd be worth it? I'm not sure.

[Sylian]

Other than Stoneskin, Limited Wish and Forcecage for the Evoker, which spells are good to use Supernatural spell on? Also, the Animal domain might be worth taking for the Animal Devotion feat?

[Firechanter]

Since you only need a single level of CCl, that doesn't cripple your Arcane casting too much. Dweomerkeeper is a very good PrC, and entry is practically free: you want Metamagic feats anyway, and then you just need to scribe a single scroll and you're done with it.

Only drawback (for me) would be that you can't trade away Scribe Scroll, I _never_ use that and prefer to swap it out. But it's a small price considering the potential gain. Or, of course, you pick a different item creation feat.

[Sylian]

I actually talked with the other Wizard in our party about it, and he might be interested in taking a Cloistered Cleric level as well. I'm thinking that my character, the Conjurer, should take the Healing domain in addition to Knowledge and Magic, and exchange Healing for Healing Devotion and Magic for Magic Devotion, while the Evoker takes the Animal Domain for Animal Devotion, Knowledge for Knowledge Devotion and keeps the Magic Domain in order to get an extra level 1 domain spell. I figured that Knowledge Devotion should make up for lost caster levels since it adds extra damage. Does it work on AoE spells such as Fireball or Manyjaws? How about spells like Magic Missile or Scorching Ray?

The Evoker might pick Extra Turning in order to get extra uses of Animal Devotion (flying!). Is this a good idea? The party would then be:

Cloistered Cleric 1/Conjurer 4-5/Dweomerkeeper x
Cloistered Cleric 1/Evoker 4-5/Dweomerkeeper x
Beguiler x
Barbarian 2/Crusader x (Barbarian levels to get Frenzy and Improved Trip)

Us losing a caster level might be okay since the Beguiler is tier 3 and the Crusader is tier 3, while we are tier 1 classes, although we might not build or play them optimally. Still, we'd get new spell levels on the same level as the Beguiler. I figure that we might still be some of the most powerful members of the party, though everyone should be fairly strong, I think.