[PF] Archer Rogue tips?

[JusticeZero]

Building an E6 PF Rogue for a newbie at level 4. They want to be an archer. We have a Gunslinger for ranged damage already, so the Rogue skills distinguish the build. Any tips on how to make this work? I'm hazy on how SA can be used best with a bow. I'd like to be able to help them with good tactics.

[Elricaltovilla]

Sneak attacking at range generally only happens within 30 ft. There are some Rogue Talents that can enhance that, as well as a couple archetypes (The Sniper (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/sniper) particularly).

Sniper's Eye (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/sniper-s-eye-ex)- Lets you ignore partial concealment for sneak attacks and is really the only basic Rogue Talent you have access to that boosts ranged sneak attacks.

[Barstro]

By my reading (not actually playing), SA sucks for ranged. Melee players can always flank to get SA, but ranged cannot flank.

If you find gameplay to not work well for your rogue, I suggest the following houserule;

If an NPC is flanked by others, the Rogue gets SA within 30'.

Frankly, I'd give the +2 to hit as well, but I have a soft spot for ranged combat.

[Squirrel_Dude]

I would also recommend the sniper archetype, as that's clearly the archetype for a ranged rogue It does give up trapfinding, so the rogue would lose that particular niche. I might also recommend combining it with the cat burglar archetype because it allows you to always take a 10 on a stealth check (to snipe/hide in combat, etc.)

Obvious feats:
- point blank shot
- rapid shot
- Focused shot

Feats not to take (with that archetype)
- Far Shot

Obvious Talents:
- Snap Shot

That's probably going to be the biggest problem your going to have to deal with in building this character for the player: the limited number of helpful feats because of your low BAB, when so many of the useful feats require a BAB of at least +5. E.G. Snap shot, many shot, and clusted shots are all off the table for a rogue, when they would be available to other classes.

[Daftendirekt]

If you want a skillful archer, Rangers do it perfectly fine (if there's a class skill rogue gets that ranger doesn't that he wants, traits can fix that) and zen archers do so as well (as well as being nearly 100% SAD).

[StreamOfTheSky]

My advice is don't do it. Pathfinder went out of its way to nerf ranged SA into the ground, it is very hard to do respectable damage as a rogue with a bow/crossbow (or thrown weapons) now. Having a gunslinger in the party, who laughs as he deadly aims against touch AC, will only make the rogue feel more worthless at archery.

If he likes a certain aspect of the rogue class, you could suggest another class/archetype that does it as well but is more playable. There's literally like half a dozen or more options, though few do absolutely everything a rogue could do (not that an actual rogue could be a party face master archer trapfinding scouting acrobat spy simultaneously and actually be good at all those things, either). But if there's certain parts of rogue he's especially keen on, I guarantee you there is an option that's just plain better.

Alternatively, you might want to make some house rules to help him out.

[Andvare]

You could go with a ninja, which is a better rogue choice in general, and take Vanishing Trick. Incisibility does alllow for ranged sneak attack.
It will drain ki points like there's no tomorrow, and only work with one attack each round. Too bad the improved version only comes online at level 10.
Not the most optimal choice, but it is an option.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Invisibility for 1 sneak attack really isn't worth it. And that will only make his damage mediocre. You want full attack sneak attack; even with that your damage really isn't much/any better than a fighter or ranger archer or a gunslinger. +3d6 at Rogue 6 is only +10.5 damage, on average.

A fighter with weapon training +1 and weapon specialization alone has +3 damage, and has an extra +4 from weapon training, higher BAB, and weapon focus (though rogue could have that last one), so spending -2 to hit for +4 damage (deadly aim) still leaves an edge in attack bonus and brings him up to +7. That's +7 all the time, all day all night. Rogue's situational SA is only +10.5 and rogue has lower to hit (even after fighter's deadly aim) and one less attack per round due to BAB difference.

If the fighter should ever be able to acquire gloves of dueling, the comparison gets even worse for the rogue. When the rogue's hyper-situational full attack sneak attack (seriously, how often will you get to do both, past round 1 if you win initiative?) is still equal or worse than the fighter's vanilla routine... that's kind of depressing.

[JusticeZero]

Well, they are new, and said "I want to be an archer". Their gaming background online means archer =stealth. We have a healing type, a barbarian, a gunslinger, and a tactician who occasionally takes potshots with a crossbow. I'd like them to have a niche beyond ranged dps, as we already have that. As usual for my game, we have all psi and no casters, but I don't want to saddle a complete newbie with a complex gish or the like.

[ericgrau]

Well ranger archer can fit ranged dps + skills. They don't have sneak attack but they have full BAB.

But rogue archers are much better than melee rogues, particularly at level 6 and below. Melee rogues die. They set up a flank and then drop like a sack of rocks. Rogue archers get at least one full attack sneak attack from safety. During round 1 and the surprise round, any monsters that haven't acted yet are flat-footed.

Since he only gets 3 sneak attack dice, don't leave out strength damage. Stats should be dex > str > con. Plus it gives good damage when he can no longer sneak attack. The minimal feats for an archer are point blank shot, rapid shot and precise shot. Deadly aim's bonuses/penalties come to about +2 damage a hit which helps without sneak attack. But with sneak attack it's break even or worse.

Being a ninja (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja) might be nice. They can blow ki for an extra attack, especially useful round 1. Useful ninja talents include bleeding attack (and try to spread out the targets), pressure points, vanishing trick (1 more sneak attack per round), deadly range, and maybe forgotten trick + extra ki feat(s) (any darn trick you want each round). That last one should probably wait for the feats once the player hits level 6.

Useful rogue talents include bleeding attack and ninja trick (one of the above, limit once).

[Hylas]

Well, they are new, and said "I want to be an archer". Their gaming background online means archer =stealth.

I would suggest ranger then. Ranger can have good stealth and good combat. With +6 BAB they'll qualify for more feats. It also gives easy access to the feats Improved Precise Shot, Parting Shot, and Point Blank Master, which are usually hard to get or in the case of Improved Precise Shot, impossible to get in E6.

Further, there's archetypes to remove magic and the animal companion if you want to avoid those things for his first character. Urban Ranger and Skirmisher could both work and make his character feel more like a rogue.

[avr]

Thirding the ranger suggestion. The guide (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/guide) archetype (compatible with either of the options Hylas suggested, I think) makes the favored enemy bonus into something that is usuable against a couple of opponents per day rather than being dependent on picking the right favored enemies, which I think should be a improvement.

[ericgrau]

Well at level 5 a ninja with bleeding attack and vanishing trick gets ~19 damage per hit the first round and then effectively ~14 damage (avg. of 9&19) per hit the following rounds. The guide ranger 5 gets ~10 damage per hit every round but 20% more hits, so as good as ~12 damage on the rogue.

It seems like the ninja does more damage until his ki runs out at around the 4th round, then only slightly less damage. Even if he's out of ki at the beginning of a fight his first round seems to make up for the remaining rounds vs. the ranger. Also gets more skills. It's worse when the party gets ambushed but he can try to scout ahead and stay hidden. Even then vanishing trick keeps up the sneak attacks.

The ranger gets one more feat which helps to partly catch up, as do bleed immune foes. But in E6 as players get tons of feats past 6 the options get worse and worse.

[avr]

Assuming a 4th level (as mentioned in the OP) ranger with 14 STR, the feats Deadly Aim, Point Blank Shot, and the archery combat style Rapid Shot, within 30', then that's (d8 + 7) x2 = average 23 damage. When favored enemy or the guide archetype's ranger's focus is in effect add 4 average damage.

A 4th level ninja with 14 STR, PB and Rapid Shot, invisible for the first attack and a longbow prof from race or trait, within 30' again does (d8 + 3) x2 + 2d6 = average 22 damage.

Attack bonuses are better for the ninja when favored enemy/ranger's focus do not apply, better for the ranger when it does.

At 5th level the ninja adds a dice of sneak attack and the ranger's favored enemy attack & damage bonus increases by 2.

I'm not sure where you're getting your figures from Eric, mine suggest the ninja does about as much damage when using vanishing trick as the ranger does without the ranger's own bonus attack/damage.

[ericgrau]

You nearly break even and yet you left out multiple things. The level 4 guide ranger only gets +2 focus damage. Bleed adds +2 damage per round, which might become +4 or +6 damage. In the first round every attack is a sneak attack, and this is a good time to blow ki for a 3rd attack. I didn't notice that PF upgraded favored enemy to include attack rolls. That helps the ranger. I also left out the enemy's lot dex bonus to AC against the sneak attack though. That helps the ninja a little bit.

[avr]

A level 4 ranger gets +2 focus damage per hit when it applies, which applies to both attacks made with rapid shot. 2 bleed damage for the level 4 ninja per sneak attack is something I missed, true. Note that it doesn't apply to undead, regenerating monsters, constructs, elementals, and probably a few other odd cases.

OK, in the first non-surprise round if a ninja wins initiative and spends a ki point that's a clear win to them. Otherwise it looks pretty close.

[ericgrau]

Even 2-3 rounds is a lot of bleed. And that's an extra 18 damage round 1, plus any bleed in future rounds, completely glossed over. It's hard to catch up to 18 with maybe 1 or 2 more damage per round, if not 0 to 2 less after bleeds.

If the DM tends to run multiple encounters that might change things.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Well ranger archer can fit ranged dps + skills. They don't have sneak attack but they have full BAB.

But rogue archers are much better than melee rogues, particularly at level 6 and below. Melee rogues die. They set up a flank and then drop like a sack of rocks. Rogue archers get at least one full attack sneak attack from safety. During round 1 and the surprise round, any monsters that haven't acted yet are flat-footed.

Since he only gets 3 sneak attack dice, don't leave out strength damage. Stats should be dex > str > con. Plus it gives good damage when he can no longer sneak attack. The minimal feats for an archer are point blank shot, rapid shot and precise shot. Deadly aim's bonuses/penalties come to about +2 damage a hit which helps without sneak attack. But with sneak attack it's break even or worse.

Being a ninja (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja) might be nice. They can blow ki for an extra attack, especially useful round 1. Useful ninja talents include bleeding attack (and try to spread out the targets), pressure points, vanishing trick (1 more sneak attack per round), deadly range, and maybe forgotten trick + extra ki feat(s) (any darn trick you want each round). That last one should probably wait for the feats once the player hits level 6.

Useful rogue talents include bleeding attack and ninja trick (one of the above, limit once).My only disagreement would be the importance of strength. With the ability to take focused shot, the character could add his intelligence to damage. It wouldn't make strength meaningless, but it might better help the player do well as a skillful character.

Again, taking focused shot doesn't make either style (strength or int) meaningless, but it's something to throw out. Obviously, the ideal is that a character could have decent scores in both, and still be competant, so they'd get plenty of damage.

[StreamOfTheSky]

There are DMs who don't run multiple encounters in a day?

OP, I would suggest you show your friend the Zen Archer (and Qinggong) Monk and the Ranger. If he'd prefer, Trapper and Freebooter Ranger archetypes are still decent in E6, they become poor choices at higher levels. Trapper will let him be just as good as a rogue at trapfinding and remove the spell casting so it's less complex; freebooter trades having to pick favored enemies for a smaller (untyped!) bonus he can use at will with a move action and share with the entire party against a chosen foe.

Zen Archer is just a really competent archer, and is probably the most easy-bake class in the entire game (the feats are basically laid out for you already, there isn't much actual "choice," even). If he takes Wisdom in the Flesh trait for Disable Device, he'll be on par w/ a rogue at it (but unable to disarm magical traps). One sour note is that by strict RAW, an E6 Zen Archer lacks the BAB +6 needed for Clustered Shots, a vital archery feat. But IMO that's flipping stupid as you can only use the feat when full attacking and a full attacking Zen Archer has full BAB, so it's an EXTREMELY reasonable houserule...

Both can be very stealthy, and both will let you have the all important Imp. Precise Shot at 6th level. Monk also gives Point Blank Master; Ranger might be able to get it if one of the E6 capstone feats is "get another ranger bonus feat."

[ericgrau]

There are DMs who don't run multiple encounters in a day?
Too many unfortunately. Easier that way. Even with multiple the damage is still tolerable, but a little worse than others overall. So if it is only sometimes multiple or if only one of the encounters is major, the ninja still comes out ahead.

Zen archer is nice too for the extra ki attack and the many bonus feats. Too lazy to do any more damage figuring at the moment. But assuming PF monsters are similar enough to 3.5, I suggest monster AC 16 for levels 4-6 for anyone else figuring it out. Important because so many of his feats affect attack rolls rather than damage.

Most DR comes at high level and is easy to overcome by carrying mixed arrows. I don't see clustered shots as being that important in E6. Plus feats are tight early on.

[Hylas]

Don't forget that a ranger has access to manyshot, which I think brings it ahead of ninja.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Since most everybody is saying don't attempt it or go another route, I'm going to suggest the one way to actually make the build effective.

Since this is E6, you can't rely on the plan of going Ninja and waiting till level 10 (when you become unstoppable). While I would still suggest playing a Ninja over a straight up Rogue (Ki Pool makes the class much more effective), you are instead going to rely on Sniping.

Provided you are at least 10 feet away from your target, you may make a Stealth check after each ranged attack to maintain your concealment. This is normally made at a -20 penalty, which is nearly impossible for low level characters. This is why we will be playing with a Halfling.

Use the alternative racial trait Swift as Shadows. This reduces the movement penalty for sneaking by 5 feet and it also reduces the sniping penalty to Stealth checks by 10. You lose a +2 bonus to Acrobatics and Climb checks. You can also easily have a +10 to +12 on Sneak attempts right at first level, depending on your Dex score.

So at either level 2 or level 3 you pick up the Ninja Trick Vanish. Use it hide when you're spotted, and then set up your sniping attempts at locations where you can gain some bonuses from the terrain. Then attack and snipe. Unless you're really unlucky you should get a couple sniping attacks in this way.

If sniping is impossible, you can still do some nice damage by pelting the enemy with arrows. Spend a Ki Point for an extra attack and use Rapid Shot to get 1 attack at full BAB and 2 at -2.

Ultimately you're going to want to pick up Sniping Goggles, though this will be difficult in E6. On the whole you should just get used to sniping from within 30 feet and you should be really careful with positioning and getting cover from the environment.

[ericgrau]

DPR Challenge, Ninja vs. Guide Ranger vs. Zen Archer

All 3
Dex/Wis 16+2(race)+2(item)=20, str 14, cha 14
Monster AC 16 including 1 from dex: effective +1 to hit when flat-footed for simplicity
Invisibility also gives another +2
Foes assumed up for an average of 2 rounds each (2 rounds bleed, 4 rounds ranger's focus)
MW weapon
weapon + dex/wis + point blank shot - rapid shot/flurry = 5+BAB to hit
Point Blank Shot + Str = +3 damage

- - - - - - - - - -

Human Ninja 6: point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot, ?
Vanishing trick, bleeding attack, pressure points/deadly range? (left out for now)
5 ki
Round 1: 10/10/10, 1d6+3d6+6+3=23; (75%+75%+75%=2.25) * 23 = 51.75 DPR
Round 2+: 12/9, 1d6+3d6+6+3=23/1d6+3=6.5; 85%*23+70%*6.5 = 24.1 DPR

- - - - - - - - - -

Human Guide Ranger 6: point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot (B), manyshot (B), deadly aim (-2/+4), ?
Ranger's Focus +4 dmg & AB
Rounds 1-4: 13x2/13/8, 1d8+3+4+4=15.5; (90%*2+90%+65%=3.35)*15.5= 51.9 DPR
Round 5+: 9x2/9/4, 1d8+3+4=11.5; (70%+70%+45%=1.85)*11.5= 21.3 DPR

- - - - - - - - - -

Human Zen Archer Monk 6: perfect strike (B, used 2/round first 3 rounds) weapon focus (B), weapon spec (B), precise shot (B), manyshot (B), point blank master (B), point blank shot, deadly aim, ?, ? (1 more extra feat than others, extra ki maybe?)
8 ki
5+6+1-2=10
Round 1-6: 10x2 (+reroll)/10/10/5, 1d8+3+2+4=13.5; (93.75%*2+75%+75%+50%=3.875)*13.5 = 52.3 DPR
Round 7+: 10x2/10/10/5, 1d8+3+2+4=13.5; (75%*2+75%+75%+50%=3.5)*13.5 = 47.25 DPR

- - - - - - - - - -

Victory to Zen Archer, 2nd Guide Ranger, 3rd Ninja. That guide ranger variant is nutso though. More than doubles his damage. Manyshot did make a difference too. Ninja and ranger had a feat leftover. Zen archer had 2 leftover. Losing damage for 1 round and ending rounds with swift vanish could make the ninja extremely hard to hit though. Gets more skills too. And ranger gets more skills than zen archer.

I front-loaded expendable attacks on all 3 because the early rounds of a fight tend to matter more. Early dead foes can't counterattack, after all. Long days could make you spread them out a bit. Ranger would try to solo one big foe the whole fight and tell allies to lay off him, ninja would do high damage mainly round 1 then budget from there. Zen archer doesn't change much, but might go easy on ki during cleanup parts of battle.

Feel free to copy paste and edit-correct any errors.

[ArqArturo]

I would recommend multiclassing with Fighter, and use some of the features of the Archer archetype.