Is this fight too hard? TPK coming up?

[Jon_Dahl]

During our last session the PCs agreed to attack a green dragon which is residing in a nearby forest. They know it's large, so if the players are metagaming a bit, they will know that it's at least CR8 opponent. And it is exactly that.

The dragon lives in a cave behind a waterfall. The modest-sized cave is easy to access. It has some kobold slaves who serve as an alarm system. The PCs aren't aware of the kobolds.

The problem is that one of the players will not be able to attend the next session, so they are going to fight the BBEG without their full force. The player took his character sheet with him, so I can't have him as an NPC (he lives far away).

The available PCs are:
Kobold sorcerer 7, tiefling cleric 5 (ECL 6) and gnome psychic warrior 2/cleric 3/pyrokinetist 1. That's two 6th-level and one 7th-level characters.

The way I see it, my choices are:
1. Let them attack the dragon. It's fair, since they get plan the attack freely. They can more loot and XP without the fourth character.
2. Stick a DMPC with them. I absolutely hate DMPCs and I always make a mess with them. "The DM killed the BBEG while the PCs watched, hooray!"
3. Not allow them to encounter the dragon. It can only happen when they have their full force.
4. Weaken the dragon and reduce the treasure. They might be disappointed with poor loot from a large dragon.
5. Give the players some obvious advantage, such as arrows of dragon slaying.
6. Talk with my players that this fight is going to hard and how they feel about it. Then I will just DM accordingly and everyone is happy.

What do you think? It's an important fight in the campaign, so I'd like to hear some opinions.

[Xervous]

could you provide some more information on the optimization level of your players?

Kobold Sorcerer 7 could be anything from a joke blaster to an encounter ending monster.

[dupersudi]

If you're that worried about a TPK, split the enemies, have the dragon fly off and let the PCs attack the kobold slaves(maybe boost the number/difficulty of the slaves). Then after they have gathered their loot and leave/laid an ambush have the dragon comeback.

[Irk]

If i were you, I would do option six, and it seems like your leaning in that direction anyway based on your description of the result of carrying it out. If everyone ends up happy, what's not to like?

[Rosstin]

Have a crazy guy warn them that the dragon is REALLY dangerous, and give them an escape scroll or something. When they're about to TPK they'll know it's their own fault and GTFO.

Don't NERF the dragon just make them aware of the danger.

Telling the players directly is ok too. "Guys this dragon is really tough and I'm not pulling any punches, ok?"

[Jon_Dahl]

If you're that worried about a TPK, split the enemies, have the dragon fly off and let the PCs attack the kobold slaves(maybe boost the number/difficulty of the slaves). Then after they have gathered their loot and leave/laid an ambush have the dragon comeback.

The kobold slaves are useless. They just provide the alarm, nothing else. They are unarmed and have absolutely nothing. The dragon keeps them that way because the slaves won't escape to the wild barehanded since they know it's a suicide.


could you provide some more information on the optimization level of your players?

Kobold Sorcerer 7 could be anything from a joke blaster to an encounter ending monster.

Well, adequately optimized. He flies while invisible and throws fireballs.

[SethoMarkus]

If the player will only be missing one session, perhaps it is possible to just delay the fight? Meet up and play a one-shot, have a movie night, play some other game, etc.

I know that isn't a perfect solution, but it would allow you to run the encounter as you originally intended. Just an option to think about.

[angry_bear]

The kobold slaves are useless. They just provide the alarm, nothing else. They are unarmed and have absolutely nothing. The dragon keeps them that way because the slaves won't escape to the wild barehanded since they know it's a suicide.



Well, adequately optimized. He flies while invisible and throws fireballs.

Why make them useless though? Kobolds are borderline worshipers of dragons... Serving it is no different than serving a higher level cleric to the kobolds. There really isn't a reason for them to betray it, and the dragon should know that. This is assuming your setting is based on standard lore of course. :smallsmile:

By the looks of the party, I'd probably hold off on the fight. If they're dead set on taking the dragon on now, tell them that you'll fight fair, but won't hold back. Make sure they understand that, and if they fight and win, great. If they lose, hopefully they accept that they made the wrong choice and roll up new characters.

[Jon_Dahl]

Why make them useless though? Kobolds are borderline worshipers of dragons... Serving it is no different than serving a higher level cleric to the kobolds. There really isn't a reason for them to betray it, and the dragon should know that. This is assuming your setting is based on standard lore of course. :smallsmile:


Everything you just wrote there works exactly like that in my setting, but I'm just going to make them useless to provide an easier fight. The last thing I need here is a harder fight, do you agree? :smallsmile:

[Randomocity132]

If they want to fight the dragon, make it so there's already a fight in progress when they enter the cave; the dragon fighting another party of 3 similarly leveled characters. And they can join in if they want, but have the dragon incinerate and devour the other party within a few turns.

[Cavir]

The player took his character sheet with him, so I can't have him as an NPC (he lives far away).
How about having the player post his sheet on something like Myth-Weavers so you could still NPC it if necessary (dragon fight or otherwise)?

[Morbis Meh]

Everything you just wrote there works exactly like that in my setting, but I'm just going to make them useless to provide an easier fight. The last thing I need here is a harder fight, do you agree? :smallsmile:

You can make it a two part fight though, have the kobolds be the main fight for the weakened group and have the waterfall layer be a labrynth that they need to get through. Save the dragon for the full party.

[angry_bear]

Everything you just wrote there works exactly like that in my setting, but I'm just going to make them useless to provide an easier fight. The last thing I need here is a harder fight, do you agree? :smallsmile:

That's fair, I'm just thinking that if they faced a solid level of resistance from the Kobolds, it might make your group hesitate in advancing before they're at full strength again. Plus, if the Kobolds purpose is just to keep anyone out of the dragon's cave, they could retreat without being chased down. Whereas if they challenge the dragon too soon, there's a good chance they'll die. :smallsmile:

[Ketiara]

You can make it a two part fight though, have the kobolds be the main fight for the weakened group and have the waterfall layer be a labrynth that they need to get through. Save the dragon for the full party.

Yea I'd also stall the players, make sure they didn't reach the dragon. Perhaps they might even gain a level or find a bit of loot that will help them In the dragon fight.

[nedz]

1. Let them attack the dragon. It's fair, since they get plan the attack freely. They can more loot and XP without the fourth character.
2. Stick a DMPC with them. I absolutely hate DMPCs and I always make a mess with them. "The DM killed the BBEG while the PCs watched, hooray!"
3. Not allow them to encounter the dragon. It can only happen when they have their full force.
4. Weaken the dragon and reduce the treasure. They might be disappointed with poor loot from a large dragon.
5. Give the players some obvious advantage, such as arrows of dragon slaying.
6. Talk with my players that this fight is going to hard and how they feel about it. Then I will just DM accordingly and everyone is happy.

I wouldn't do 2, 4, 5 or 6.

1. Should be OK, provided they have a means of running away. BUT are they likely too, if they realise that they are over matched ? You know this party, we don't.
3. You could throw in a side plot, until they are at full strength. Perhaps foreshadow the next plot arc ? Or do something left field ?

[Harlot]

TPK - not necessarily ...
Its very hard, but within the doable range if planned (and rolled!) right.

I don't understand why you'd hold them back from the fight, though:
Their guesstimation of the dragons CR is fairly accurate, so the group do know what they're facing. You, being a fair and friendly DM could confirm the CR to the group, giving them better footing in their decision-making, but in my opinion, that is all the info you should provide ...

If the dragon proves to be overwhelming, they could simply flee. It IS an option. Not an option taken by many players, but an option none the less, and there's a first for everything. So yes, you could help them by making retreat available.

I mean, if the players willingly, knowingly insist on taking on a green dragon, while not on full force, who are you to stop them?

Oh, and Kobolds are not meek. Think Tuckers Kobolds. They are viscious!

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Jon_Dahl
6. Talk with my players that this fight is going to [be] hard and how they feel about it.

This really seems like the best option. Let the players know they're genuinely undermanned for this encounter, so there won't be hard feelings later if one or more PCs goes down.

That by itself might encourage them to hold off and do some extra planning. If not, then whatever the outcome, they'll know the risks beforehand.

Besides, as a guy in my group used to say: "This is Dungeons and Dragons, not Dungeons and Meepos!"

:smalltongue:

[CaladanMoonblad]

The SRD Calculator (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/) says "Very Difficult" for this generic setup. This sort of encounter should happen 15% of the time.

I'm with Nedz on this one, and reiterate his suggestions 100%.

The players make decisions; it is not your problem to nerf something if they are going to be short a player. Maybe they should decide not to tackle this challenge without their fourth player, hm? I'd suggest creating an alternate adventure or challenge for them appropriate to three players.

[Lightlawbliss]

players are in some ways like animals. The biggest way is they follow the food hanging from the rope tied to the branch you are holding. If your clever on how you move the food, the will keep following till you effectively hand it to them.

[Alabenson]

Based on what you've told us about your players and the encounter, I'd probably go with option 1, but I'd probably give the players some way of running away in the very likely probability that they find themselves in over their heads.

[Fyermind]

Depending oon your PCs and dragon this could easily be a TPK. I generally like to save big encounters for the whole group anyway.

I'd go with 6 or making the kobolds a threat and have the dragon go out hunting. If the PCs kill the kobolds and take the cave and there is still time left, the dragon returns, but doesn't enter, realizing something is wrong, it goes to a nearby population center and takes hostages trying to work out a deal where it gets it's cave (and horde) back. Alternatively it could start raising a small horde to take it by force (you know, grab an ogre here, a few hobgoblins there etc.)

[Lightlawbliss]

remember, this is a dragon. things like having it's lair part way up a steep cliff is perfectly possible. Throw in a hoist with gaurds and the kobolds can get in and out but getting in uninvited would sure be a pain. A natural tunnel could very reasonably have multiple paths where is has gone over the years.

[Grayson01]

I would go with letting them know hey this might be a bad idea, but it's your call so I wont hold back. Have side plot ready in case. And if they do decide to go fight the good fight undermaned and die well that is on them. However this is still just a game there is no rule that you can't go okay well that turned out bad rest.

[denthor]

Please see Order of the Stick V vs. the Black dragon. If you players read this strip they will think you are the coolest thing giving them a younger dragon and then having the older dragon attack when they are full strength.

Just my opinion. After all the mother dragon wanted her son to enjoy the company of the green dragon in the next valley. She was open minded that way.

[137beth]

Well, adequately optimized. He flies while invisible and throws fireballs.
If he's a sorcerer who knows fireball at 7th level then he isn't optimized:smalltongue:

Anyways, I'm going to second/third/whatever the suggestion of making the kobolds stronger, and making them their own encounter. Yes, they might be able to beat the dragon with just three people, but if, as you said, it is very important to the campaign, the fourth player may be disappointed to miss it. I'd actually be more worried about how player #4 feels about missing the BBEG fight than I would about whether the players can beat a slightly-higher-than-their-level encounter.

[Keneth]

I don't see the problem, a juvenile green dragon is a joke; No SR, no DR, pitiful AC, CL 1st, +0 initiative, only has reach with bite. If your players come prepared (resist energy, ranged touch spells, protection from evil, etc.), they should be able to obliterate the dragon by the end of their second round at the latest. This is not a hard fight unless the kobolds have character levels and are gonna engage the PCs at the same time. It's not even a decently challenging fight, in spite of that ridiculous CR.

If your players come unprepared, however, and they fail to approach the lair and dragon intelligently, then it's their own fault, and they deserve to be turned into a puddle of goo by the dragon's acid breath.

[Jon_Dahl]

Lots of good points in this thread. I really have to think about this and I will keep in my mind what everyone has said so far. Please post if you have good ideas how to handle this and you haven't it posted so far.

[M_Ayling]

I don't know if this is a viable opion to you but ECL are variable, not just depending of the monsters CR, but also other aspecs like terrain, scenery, etc.

I think the DMG uses an example of this which goes something like; an ambushing band of Hobgoblins, throwing rocks down into a valley at an unprepared and unexspecting party below would be a much higher ECL than a standard fight with same, said monsters.

So my advice is to give the players a stratiegic advantage. However, don't give them too much information. You want the resource there, but the players have to think of using it to thier advantage by themsleves.

I hope this helps you. Happy gaming.

M_Ayling.

[Spuddles]

I don't see the problem, a juvenile green dragon is a joke; No SR, no DR, pitiful AC, CL 1st, +0 initiative, only has reach with bite. If your players come prepared (resist energy, ranged touch spells, protection from evil, etc.), they should be able to obliterate the dragon by the end of their second round at the latest. This is not a hard fight unless the kobolds have character levels and are gonna engage the PCs at the same time. It's not even a decently challenging fight, in spite of that ridiculous CR.

If your players come unprepared, however, and they fail to approach the lair and dragon intelligently, then it's their own fault, and they deserve to be turned into a puddle of goo by the dragon's acid breath.

Well, the dragon is a rather big bag of HP, and will probably land most of his attacks each round. It comes with 5 feats, so depending on what those are, it could be bite/claw/claw/wing/wing, each at +17. If the players have 27 AC (unlikely, I think), then avg damage can be expected to be 2d6+6, 1d6+3, 1d6+3, 1d8+3 1d8+3. That's 41 damage a turn, or if half hits land, 20 damage per round. I expect non of the PCs have over 60 HP, which means the dragon can kill one target with 3 rounds of damage.

Breath weapon will probably score a full 8d6 damage on everyone once, plus everyone again every 1d4 rounds.

It's definitely a dangerous fight, but there are a few things that could make it a lot easier.

Have an old girzzled warrior, a retired adventurer, help the party out. He will provide a few consumables as well as advice for the party, but they have to promise to return something from the dragon's horde to him (like a 1500gp art object).

He provides 3 scrolls of resist energy (caster level 7). These last 70 minutes and prevent 20 points of energy damage. This should effectively neuter the breath weapon.

He also has oils of barkskin and shield of faith for everyone, the 300gp variety (CL6), as well as oils of Dragonbane, which give a weapon the dragonbane property for like 7 minutes.

Alternatively, if the party has cash lying around, the grizzled veteran just takes them shopping for these consumables.

[Keneth]

Well, the dragon is a rather big bag of HP, and will probably land most of his attacks each round.

It's a bag of HP with no defenses. A big block of butter is still a block of butter. Why would it be hitting with most of its attacks though? Dragons don't have pounce, and none of the players should be dumb enough to stand in place and take all of its attacks. At best, a single character would be getting hit by the dragon's bite twice in a round, and that's assuming it's not using its breath weapon. So it's more like 13 damage per round if both attacks hit, not accounting for feats and magic items.


Breath weapon will probably score a full 8d6 damage on everyone once, plus everyone again every 1d4 rounds.

Again, why would you assume that? Admittedly, the cone is 40 ft. long, so that's a sizable portion of the battlefield, but with the dragon's +0 Initiative, chances are the players are gonna go first and be able to reposition themselves. Even so, if they use resist energy scrolls/wands/rings, that damage should be no more dangerous than its bite attacks, and also allows for a Reflex save.

I don't see how this encounter ever gets difficult unless the dragon is underwater, fully buffed, equipped with magic items, surprises the party, and is assisted by its minions. But that's a huge increase in CR.

[Spuddles]

It's a bag of HP with no defenses. A big block of butter is still a block of butter. Why would it be hitting with most of its attacks though? Dragons don't have pounce, and none of the players should be dumb enough to stand in place and take all of its attacks. At best, a single character would be getting hit by the dragon's bite twice in a round, and that's assuming it's not using its breath weapon. So it's more like 13 damage per round if both attacks hit, not accounting for feats and magic items.

Are you expecting every player to have spring attack, or what? Any player that approaches to attack, so long as the dragon is not flat footed or doesnt have combat expertise, provokes an AoO, followed by ending its turn next to bite/claw/claw/wing/wing.


Again, why would you assume that? Admittedly, the cone is 40 ft. long, so that's a sizable portion of the battlefield, but with the dragon's +0 Initiative, chances are the players are gonna go first and be able to reposition themselves. Even so, if they use resist energy scrolls/wands/rings, that damage should be no more dangerous than its bite attacks, and also allows for a Reflex save.

I don't see how this encounter ever gets difficult unless the dragon is underwater, fully buffed, equipped with magic items, surprises the party, and is assisted by its minions. But that's a huge increase in CR.

Because the dragon gets a surprise round, thanks to the kobold alarm, and positions itself somewhere that forces the players to all be close together for the breath weapon. With 14 int and 15 wis, the dragon should be, at the very least, playing tactically and using the terrain to his advantage.

An attempted ambush from a submerged vantage point should be expected. With 60ft of blindsense, this is fairly easy for the dragon accomplish. A narrow passage leading through a choke should push all the players together, for instance.

Alternatively, high ledges with the dragon out of sight waiting to breath his breath weapon down below. A flying dragon breathing straight down has a cone with a radius of 40ft. That could easily be most, or all of, a cave.

Dragons are also excellent grapplers- enemies that attempt to skirmish get held in dragon jaws, then torn to shreds the next round.


You could just play the dragon as if it was int -, but part of a monster's CR are the tactics it uses. It wouldn't be very fun, to me as a player, to face dragons that use the same fighting tactics as WoW monsters.

[Keneth]

Are you expecting every player to have spring attack, or what? Any player that approaches to attack, so long as the dragon is not flat footed or doesnt have combat expertise, provokes an AoO, followed by ending its turn next to bite/claw/claw/wing/wing.

It's party made from a sorcerer, a cleric, and some weird multiclassed pyrokineticist. The sorcerer should never be going near the dragon, pyro has a 15-foot reach with his lash if he can't use any good powers, and the cleric can be just about anything. They should not be the ones moving in to hit the dragon, it's the other way around. Even if both the cleric and pyro are melee characters, at 6th level they only have a single attack, they're better off hitting the dragon after it gets close, then moving away and taking an AoO. But either way, fighting a dragon in melee is stupid unless you can reliably take it down in the first or second round.


An attempted ambush from a submerged vantage point should be expected. With 60ft of blindsense, this is fairly easy for the dragon accomplish. A narrow passage leading through a choke should push all the players together, for instance.

Why would it get a surprise round? If the kobolds sound an alarm, the players are probably gonna hear it too. They'll be expecting an ambush and are thus unlikely to be surprised. Even so, the dragon only gets to use its breath weapon which, as mentioned, shouldn't be much of a problem for a prepared party.


Dragons are also excellent grapplers- enemies that attempt to skirmish get held in dragon jaws, then torn to shreds the next round.

I have no idea how grappling works in 3.5 anymore, nor do I care to remember. It was so ridiculous, that no one ever wanted to use it. It would probably be a good idea against this particular party, assuming the dragon doesn't drop dead or run away before it has a chance to use it.


You could just play the dragon as if it was int -, but part of a monster's CR are the tactics it uses.

Indeed, and dragons are prideful, with the green dragon in particular being kinda testy and a bully. I can see it doing all kinds of fancy tactics, but it really comes to whether the dragon perceives the characters as a serious threat. As I see it, it's more likely to try a head-on attack and retreat once things start going poorly for it.

[Splendor]

Are they experienced players? Are they well equipped? Do they know a dragon's weaknesses? Can they go to town first and buy equipment/minor magical items?

Dragon: 133hp, AC 22 (touch 9), +17 hit, 8d6 breath weapon, water breathing, no real spells.

Since its in a cave there won't be any real flying, but water breathing and swim speed can be a problem.

Kobold sorcerer 7 could have 4th level spells with Draconic Reservoir feat. +3 base attack, AC should be around 19 (with mage armor) and as high as 23, should be able hitting for 4d6 with scorching ray (maybe 8d6). Combine with ray of enfeeblement to lower dragon's STR down (d6+3). Lesser Orbs spells are touch attacks. He should hammer the dragon every round with everything he has.

Cleric 5 has 3rd level spells, don't know if he heals or is combat but should be throwing Protection from Energy on all 3 of the PCs, then casting healing spells.

Gnome multiclasser will have good saves but a poor base attack. I don't think he's going to be much help, but the fire whip does give him a ranged touch attack at least.

They should consult a sage who is knowledgeable about dragons and tactics on how to fight them.

PC's should keep moving so the dragon doesn't get all his attacks. Keep out of the water, in fact they should try to block the inflow of water or even poison the water.
Alchemical item Wet Fire, like alchemical fire but burns underwater.
A Tanglefoot Bag would give it a -2 hit & -4 to DEX (lowering its touch AC to 7 and normal to 20)
Alchemical item Blackwater, makes 10' of water lose oxygen in it. So waterbreathing creatures can't breathe.
*Multiple Force Ladder spells combined with the Blackwater could drown the dragon.
*Ray of Dizziness combined with moving will make it so the dragon can't attack you.
*Ray of Clumsiness to lower dragons AC/Reflex. The hit it with a Wingbind spell, if that hits the fights over.
*Rolling high on a Ray of Clumsiness and hitting the dragon with a Tanglefoot Bag could effectively lower its Dex to zero. Making it helpless so you could now coupe.
Potions of Body Blades to avoid grapples.

I think the * ones are the best tactics.

[Jon_Dahl]

Are they experienced players?
Yes, very. We've played 95 sessions of D&D together since 2009.



Are they well equipped?

Level appropriate gear. They have hand-picked almost all their stuff and it's very effective.


Do they know a dragon's weaknesses?

The sage of the group hasn't rolled a Knowledge check yet.


Can they go to town first and buy equipment/minor magical items?


They're in a city of 49,000 people at the moment and they have lots of gold. Magic marts are strictly bannned in my campaign.

[Jon_Dahl]

I was going to have a "stalling" session, in which they would've first dealt with random encounters before the forest, then arrive at forest and fight the kobold minions and then I would've ended the session before the dragon.

Now the unavailable player contacted me and asked me to print out the character and play him as an NPC. I can't do this, no printer, but one of the players promised to print it out AND play him. Problem solved!

Now they have a human fighter 3/ranger 2/barbarian 1 NPC with them. The rest of the gang is in OP. Surely they can beat the dragon now?

[Harlot]

Do remember to write again and tell us how it all went down - I really dislike threads without conclusions ... and would like to hear how they did it ...

[Jon_Dahl]

Do remember to write again and tell us how it all went down - I really dislike threads without conclusions ... and would like to hear how they did it ...

You have my word. I'll be happy to tell you how it went.
Please note that no PC has ever died as an NPC on my watch... Yet! :smalleek:

[Sith_Happens]

You have my word. I'll be happy to tell you how it went.
Please note that no PC has ever died as an NPC on my watch... Yet! :smalleek:

Just watch out for the fighter suddenly being unusually protective of the character they're sharing a player with.:smalltongue::smallsigh:

[Xervous]

minor nitpick, a dragon breathing down with a 40 ft cone breathweapon will hit a 55ft diameter area as the widest part of a quarter circle is R * sqrt(2)

[Pickford]

Why would it get a surprise round? If the kobolds sound an alarm, the players are probably gonna hear it too. They'll be expecting an ambush and are thus unlikely to be surprised. Even so, the dragon only gets to use its breath weapon which, as mentioned, shouldn't be much of a problem for a prepared party.

From the MM: Green dragons have hide and move silently are class skills. Those are perfect skills for ambushing people, which gives the attacker a surprise round.

The players, being unlikely to have particularly high spot/listen scores, are very likely to get bushwhacked if the dragon is played appropriately to its description. Assuming there's a river/pond, the players are probably in trouble if the dragon simply submerges and fires its breath weapon from there, out of sight and at a distinct terrain advantage. As a standard juvenile has a 14 int/15 wis, there's no reason for this particular beastie to make an egregious error tactically.


I have no idea how grappling works in 3.5 anymore, nor do I care to remember. It was so ridiculous, that no one ever wanted to use it. It would probably be a good idea against this particular party, assuming the dragon doesn't drop dead or run away before it has a chance to use it.

The same way it has always worked. 1 attempts to grab 2. If 1 makes the touch attack (i.e. makes contact) they oppose str check to see if 1 maintains a grip. Once a grip is maintained either party may damage the other either by using a weapon (at a penalty) or attempting to deal unarmed damage (opposed str check). Truly a perplexing and obtuse system. :smallconfused:

The huge advantage of grappling vs casters is that they are restricted to basically verbal components. (as material components require a full-round action to retrieve in a grapple, it's a desperation bid at best). Very few spells have 'only' a verbal component. (Yes, teleport, but you provoke, which requires a concentration check that you're probably going to fail, and even if it succeeds then you're ditching your teammates...)

Likely first action from the dragon: Sneak up behind the players and then flat-foot them with his 40' cone of acid (8d6; 20 reflex for 1/2), granted 8d6 is enough to one-shot two of them on average. And after doing that, the Green dragon can literally fly away, only to return sneak back up and do it again. (Yes, it's mean, but it's logically what the dragon 'should' do to kill that many people.)

[Jon_Dahl]

Well, I was kind of disappointed with the fight but I'm happy that great roleplaying was engaged. This is what happened:

The kobold sorcerer managed to negotiate with the local kobold tribe under the green dragon's rulership, and found out that he is a worshipper of Tiamat. The sorcerer then approached the dragon's cave alone (with everyone else hiding in the background) and parlayed with the green dragon, who was pleased that the kobold claimed to be loyal to Tiamat and also for his gifts. The dialogue part was fantastic and when the dragon was flying back to its cave, I allowed the kobold to have a surprise round to throw a fireball (the kobold was out of reach for its blindsense). The dragon failed the save and took heavy damage. During the following three rounds the kobold fired a two more fireballs and a scorching ray, thus killing it. The dragon tried to use its breath weapon, but the cleric had cast Energy Protection earlier and the dragon wasted the round. Due to the kobold high AC, the dragon just couldn't manually slay it in two rounds. None of the PCs died.

The NPC fighter/barbarian/ranger did nothing :smallsmile:

I had boosted up the dragon's hoard and its worth was over 14,000 gp, due to the fact that the PCs were in danger of falling behind in WBL.

[Sith_Happens]

I guess that's why older dragons are so rare.:smallcool:

[Angelmaker]

What do you think? It's an important fight in the campaign, so I'd like to hear some opinions.

Edit: sorry, late to the party.
[S]
What style of campaign is it? Railroading or sankdboxy?

If The first, then there are a myriad of ways to deal with it. The best would probably be, the dragon being gone and the kobolds guarding it. Maybe even the dragon has his stuff in bags of holding with him, so they can learn the new location of the dragon and go after him, leeveling up a bit first.

If the latter, then THEY decided to attack and they need to life with the consequences. Campaign sometimes just end like that.

It is all your call how you want to handle this with your group. Is there a new campaign looming or do you want to finish this one under all circumstances?
[\S]

[137beth]

Well, I was kind of disappointed with the fight but I'm happy that great roleplaying was engaged. This is what happened:

The kobold sorcerer managed to negotiate with the local kobold tribe under the green dragon's rulership, and found out that he is a worshipper of Tiamat. The sorcerer then approached the dragon's cave alone (with everyone else hiding in the background) and parlayed with the green dragon, who was pleased that the kobold claimed to be loyal to Tiamat and also for his gifts. The dialogue part was fantastic and when the dragon was flying back to its cave, I allowed the kobold to have a surprise round to throw a fireball (the kobold was out of reach for its blindsense). The dragon failed the save and took heavy damage. During the following three rounds the kobold fired a two more fireballs and a scorching ray, thus killing it. The dragon tried to use its breath weapon, but the cleric had cast Energy Protection earlier and the dragon wasted the round. Due to the kobold high AC, the dragon just couldn't manually slay it in two rounds. None of the PCs died.

The NPC fighter/barbarian/ranger did nothing :smallsmile:

I had boosted up the dragon's hoard and its worth was over 14,000 gp, due to the fact that the PCs were in danger of falling behind in WBL.

Nothing to be disappointed about--they won through roleplaying :smallsmile: Had they won in two rounds of straight-up combat, that would be anticlimactic.

[Harlot]

Thanks for sharing - I like that the PC's did their homework and outsmarted the dragon!

[Jon_Dahl]

Edit: sorry, late to the party.
[S]
What style of campaign is it? Railroading or sankdboxy?

If The first, then there are a myriad of ways to deal with it. The best would probably be, the dragon being gone and the kobolds guarding it. Maybe even the dragon has his stuff in bags of holding with him, so they can learn the new location of the dragon and go after him, leeveling up a bit first.

If the latter, then THEY decided to attack and they need to life with the consequences. Campaign sometimes just end like that.

It is all your call how you want to handle this with your group. Is there a new campaign looming or do you want to finish this one under all circumstances?
[\S]

Hmmm, if I had to choose, I'd choose "railroad". Generally my players agree to help the NPCs and they accept missions, and things go almost as planned. I like that because most often I don't write adventures for nothing. It has been seen, however, that pages of adventure material is 'wasted' because the players have surprised me. It's too bad sometimes, because I wanted to show them something cool, but it just wasn't in the cards.

This campaign is not even close to an end. I have plans for dozens of sessions. The dragon was just a very important BBEG, but it doesn't end the campaign. We are looking at years of gaming, assuming that the group holds together.

As for the railroad part, I've GMed in a group where a player actively resisted any attempt to play anything else than a sandbox game. I didn't like that too much, but I went along.