[3.5] Rebuild advice needed for 41st level combatant who serves Torm

[ericp65]

Flagg is a LG Chondathan human, originally from Cormyr in the Forgotten Realms. He's a melee-heavy divine gishy servant of Torm, dedicated above all else to fighting and slaying fiends. He's currently King of Bloodstone (Damara and Vaasa region), and is about to head off with a small group for some planes-hopping epic adventure. Before playing his character again, I'd like to rebuild it to be close to optimal while preserving the concept. Historically, he's been more a Paladin than anything else, and had some Cleric levels. I second-guessed the build earlier, and set it up this way:

Fighter 4/Paladin 27/Knight of the Chalice 10.

Ability scores: 27 21 27 17 23 24 (with items: 43 37 43 21 27 40)

I know this is by far not making the most of his potential, so please join me in tearing down and rebuilding. I inherited the character after he was already epic level. Recently in his life, he was changed into a half Moon Elf via a wish. There's still room to play with his race a bit, as long as his human blood is intact.

So, let's lay Flagg on the operating table, please, and rebuild him to be the best he can be! Printed and Web-based materials are welcome for consideration.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well I would definitely make him a DMM Cloistered Cleric with Prestige Paladin. I'd definitely read this:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10556

And make him have some Crusader and probably Ruby Knight Vindicator from Tome of Battle. Maybe some Divine Disciple. I'd have him take his first level as Factotum or something, with Able Learner, to get all skills as class skills forever. You have tons of levels to play with. Get Church Inquisitor, Contemplative, Divine Oracle, a dip into Sacred Exorcist... maximize your various turning pools with Destroy Undead and Turn Undead.

[Urpriest]

eric, I remember talking to you a few threads ago about whether or not it really makes sense for all these characters to be this high level. After all, 2e levels are generally less powerful than 3.5 ones. Are you sure it makes sense for this character to be level 41?

[Gavinfoxx]

eric, I remember talking to you a few threads ago about whether or not it really makes sense for all these characters to be this high level. After all, 2e levels are generally less powerful than 3.5 ones. Are you sure it makes sense for this character to be level 41?

This, totally this!!

[Skrobo]

eric, I remember talking to you a few threads ago about whether or not it really makes sense for all these characters to be this high level. After all, 2e levels are generally less powerful than 3.5 ones. Are you sure it makes sense for this character to be level 41?

To put it into context, a level 41 wizard is stronger than Torm. And that's without stupid cheese.

[ericp65]

Well I would definitely make him a DMM Cloistered Cleric with Prestige Paladin. I'd definitely read this:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10556

And make him have some Crusader and probably Ruby Knight Vindicator from Tome of Battle. Maybe some Divine Disciple. I'd have him take his first level as Factotum or something, with Able Learner, to get all skills as class skills forever. You have tons of levels to play with. Get Church Inquisitor, Contemplative, Divine Oracle, a dip into Sacred Exorcist... maximize your various turning pools with Destroy Undead and Turn Undead.

Much of that is what I had in mind, so this is reassuring, and gives even more direction than I might have dreamed up. Thanks!

[ericp65]

eric, I remember talking to you a few threads ago about whether or not it really makes sense for all these characters to be this high level. After all, 2e levels are generally less powerful than 3.5 ones. Are you sure it makes sense for this character to be level 41?

The characters were all converted according to published conversion guides, and have gained every level from experience. With the exceptions of this character, and his close friend and sworn defender, I don't consider any of my characters to be terribly high in level. The arcane spellcaster, Darnèlle, is only a 36th level character, and she never felt sufficiently mighty for her experience...but then, all my playing has been with few published materials beyond core and FR books, and character progressions have been naively narrow and basic.

[ericp65]

To put it into context, a level 41 wizard is stronger than Torm. And that's without stupid cheese.

It's partly because the characters feel as though they've outgrown Faerun that they plan to embark on an adventure among the planes. By ones and twos, they'll retire, eventually, or go out in a blaze of glory, but there's a dance or two in each one yet.

[herrhauptmann]

Have you thought of the Mageslayer line of feats? As a paladin 27, you've got more than enough caster level to survive a few paltry -4's. Although your chalice CL might not survive.

Pierce Magic Concealment will let you ignore any miss chances from spells, even Epic spells. And there's a lot of those.

Pierce Magic Protection will let you ignore any AC boosts from spells (not magic plate +10 though). As a further bonus, you'll dispel their AC boosters if you deal damage. Even if it's an Epic spell.

Have you thought of turning Knight of the Chalice into an epic prc? As a 10 level class, it's eligible.

If you're at this level, I guess all the gods are now Gestalt creatures? Or is the DM dipping into the Immortals Handbook for enemies?

Why are you playing someone elses character? Unless the table has an ironclad rule where you must work your way up from level 1, I'd prefer to play my own character.

[Alleran]

The arcane spellcaster, Darnèlle, is only a 36th level character, and she never felt sufficiently mighty for her experience...
What.

Okay, for FR comparisons. That arcane spellcaster has more levels than Elminster (7 more in 2E, 1 more in 3E, and in 3E the level difference is in non-arcane classes). She has as many levels as Shoon did in 2E, is more powerful than Telamont Tanthul (35th level Netherese Arcanist), is within spitting distance of Karsus (41st level arcanist), and is only ten levels away from Larloch, who's powerful enough to probably crack the planet in two if he was of a mind. Even gods only have approximately 40-50 character levels.

By the time you've hit levels like this in 3rd edition, you're operating on Pre-Mending Planeswalker levels from Magic the Gathering. Creating entire planes, effectively immortal, virtually gods in your own right. Ignore the conversion guides, these characters are capable of taking over the Abyss and remodeling it into a bed and breakfast in a morning's work. The demon lords are so much weaker that you don't even get XP for defeating them.

[Sith_Happens]

The characters were all converted according to published conversion guides, and have gained every level from experience. With the exceptions of this character, and his close friend and sworn defender, I don't consider any of my characters to be terribly high in level. The arcane spellcaster, Darnèlle, is only a 36th level character, and she never felt sufficiently mighty for her experience...but then, all my playing has been with few published materials beyond core and FR books, and character progressions have been naively narrow and basic.

Sounds like the conversion guidelines are a little off, then. 36th level in 2e is more or less the equivalent of 20th level in 3e/3.5 (IIRC. 36th is usually the max, right?).

[ericp65]

Sounds like the conversion guidelines are a little off, then. 36th level in 2e is more or less the equivalent of 20th level in 3e/3.5 (IIRC. 36th is usually the max, right?).

When I converted my characters from 2e to 3e, their character levels were not the same as they were before, of course.

[ericp65]

Sounds like the conversion guidelines are a little off, then. 36th level in 2e is more or less the equivalent of 20th level in 3e/3.5 (IIRC. 36th is usually the max, right?).

There is no level cap in 2e anymore, unless it's 100th level. It was increased considerably when the Bloodstone series (H1 - H4) was released. Previously, 36th was about the highest a "mortal" character could attain, but the H series included advancement for up to 100th level. My highest characters were of 25th - 36th level when they converted over, and I have only a handful of those, the rest being low-epic and pre-epic.

[ericp65]

Have you thought of the Mageslayer line of feats? As a paladin 27, you've got more than enough caster level to survive a few paltry -4's. Although your chalice CL might not survive.

Pierce Magic Concealment will let you ignore any miss chances from spells, even Epic spells. And there's a lot of those.

Pierce Magic Protection will let you ignore any AC boosts from spells (not magic plate +10 though). As a further bonus, you'll dispel their AC boosters if you deal damage. Even if it's an Epic spell.

Have you thought of turning Knight of the Chalice into an epic prc? As a 10 level class, it's eligible.

If you're at this level, I guess all the gods are now Gestalt creatures? Or is the DM dipping into the Immortals Handbook for enemies?

Why are you playing someone elses character? Unless the table has an ironclad rule where you must work your way up from level 1, I'd prefer to play my own character.


I'll keep these in mind, too. Most likely, I'll reduce Paladin levels dramatically, to make room for other classes. KotC might increase into epic.

This is a rare case where someone else turned over a character to me, asking that I continue using it either as a PC or as an NPC.

[ericp65]

I do appreciate the power scales at least in that I don't plan to run every character I have to megapower.

[ericp65]

Triadic knight (Champions of Valor) also looks like a good PrC for this character. Would taking levels in this class add value?