Lycanthrope Animal Form

[BeyondLimitatio]

One of my players and myself began a semi-argument about lycanthropes earlier today. The main crux of the argument was what happens when a Crusader (or another maneuver/stance using class) contracts lycanthropy and eventually goes into animal form. Would say a Wererat get to use his maneuvers while as a Dire Rat?

I initially said no, based on a specific line in the Monster Manuel. That line basically says that in animal form, the lycanthrope fights like the animal it resembles. Now, I've never seen a Dire Rat, Bear or Dire Boar use manuevers, so that kinda tells me that maneuvers and stances should be banned while in animal form.

His argument is that those base animals have intelligence of 1 or 2, while a lycanthrope in animal form retains his intelligence, so he should be capable of using most of his class features. Also maneuvers can be used as part of natural attacks, so he's not necessarily limited in that way either.

He put up a good argument, but something about it just isn't feeling right based that one throwaway line I read. So, I'm coming here to find a consensus on this. Now, the examples above were focused around maneuvers and stances, but I'm curious as to what abilities are/aren't useable in animal form. Any help would be appreciated, though no particular rush.

[Xervous]

Does he retain his class levels when transforming? Of course he does...
Therefore he can use those stances and maneuvers.

Here, read Alternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm), which is the ability that Lycanthropes use to transform.

[molten_dragon]

One of my players and myself began a semi-argument about lycanthropes earlier today. The main crux of the argument was what happens when a Crusader (or another maneuver/stance using class) contracts lycanthropy and eventually goes into animal form. Would say a Wererat get to use his maneuvers while as a Dire Rat?

I initially said no, based on a specific line in the Monster Manuel. That line basically says that in animal form, the lycanthrope fights like the animal it resembles. Now, I've never seen a Dire Rat, Bear or Dire Boar use manuevers, so that kinda tells me that maneuvers and stances should be banned while in animal form.

His argument is that those base animals have intelligence of 1 or 2, while a lycanthrope in animal form retains his intelligence, so he should be capable of using most of his class features. Also maneuvers can be used as part of natural attacks, so he's not necessarily limited in that way either.

He put up a good argument, but something about it just isn't feeling right based that one throwaway line I read. So, I'm coming here to find a consensus on this. Now, the examples above were focused around maneuvers and stances, but I'm curious as to what abilities are/aren't useable in animal form. Any help would be appreciated, though no particular rush.

The descriptions before a monster's entry aren't rules, so the line about 'fights like the animal it resembles' doesn't have any bearing on the rules.

The rules state that a lycanthrope's alternate form works like polymorph, with a few specific exceptions that have no bearing on this discussion. Polymorph references alter self, which contains the text:


You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack). You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels...

All maneuvers and stances (as far as I'm aware) are exceptional or supernatural abilities, so it's quite clear that he'd keep them. It also makes no sense that they'd lose access to them, so RAW and RAI seem to agree in this case. Your player is right.

The one exception might be if the character is an afflicted lycanthrope who is not in control of their character when they change. In that case, while RAW would still allow them use of those abilities, it seems logical that they are basically overcome with their animal mind, and would not be aware of those abilities. At that point they're essentially an animal, until they can get control again.

[Dimers]

That line provides good input on running a generic NPC lycanthrope, but it shouldn't apply to someone otherwise trained. One counter-example exists within the template itself -- you can have a weapon/claw/bite attack routine, something no animal naturally does.

Personally I'd impose a short-term penalty on attacks that use maneuvers with natural weapons. He's considered proficient with them, and he knows how to use maneuvers with other weapons, but it'll take some time to learn to combine the two. I'd say -3 penalty during the first fight where he uses natural-weapon maneuvers, -2 in the next, then -1 for a fight or two, then gone. He's tried them out under real-world conditions and gotten used to how they work together.


The one exception might be if the character is an afflicted lycanthrope who is not in control of their character when they change. In that case, while RAW would still allow them use of those abilities, it seems logical that they are basically overcome with their animal mind, and would not be aware of those abilities. At that point they're essentially an animal, until they can get control again.

Yeah, atavism could be a problem. If the rules say his mind isn't his own for a while, he shouldn't be using maneuvers during that time.

[BeyondLimitatio]

Thanks guys, that was exactly the information I was looking for. My gut told me no, but I was just looking in all the wrong places to prove that I was indeed wrong. I already let him know he was right (which of course he accepted graciously, lol). I think he's now trying to think of a way to convince a Werebear to bite his Crusader.

[Blackhawk748]

I can see how you could use a lot of you maneuvers in Hybrid form, as you have claw attacks and your still a humanoid, but how would you actually do some of those in animal form? Lets go with Order Forged From Chaos. Ok there's nothing stopping you from using this, but your supposed to have yelled orders to get everyone to move, which you cant do as an animal cuz you cant talk. Now i agree that you can probably do most maneuvers or stances while in animal form, but some honestly dont make any sense, id treat it mainly in a case by case scenario.

[CRtwenty]

The idea of a Wererat in Dire Rat form using the ToB maneuvers is just too funny for me not to use. I'd allow it in my games for that alone. :smallwink:

[molten_dragon]

I think he's now trying to think of a way to convince a Werebear to bite his Crusader.

Just remind him if he does that he's going to pick up a level adjustment and a hefty number of racial hit dice.