Which Striker?

[Nightgaun7]

As the title indicates, trying to decide what striker to play in an upcoming game.

Options:
Avenger - I love the flavor here
Barbarian - same here
Berserker - pretty much just an essentials barbarian, is it not?
Blackguard - don't know much about this, but I've always wanted to play an antipaladin
Monk (gasp!) - I've heard they are not the best at single target damage but are quite fun to play
Slayer - it's named the Slayer, what more do you need?

[Alan_Pehnereas]

Well...

What more are you looking for? What does your team look like? What kind of character do you want to play? Every striker can be something worthwhile.

My personal favorite class, however, is the Blackguard. Not by any means the best, but I just love its flavor.

Also remember that there are more to the list than what you've posted - who can forget the Ranger, Rouge, and the Executioner, among a few others?

[Nightgaun7]

I will probably be the main or one of the main sources of damage, and I want to play an aggressive heavy hitter that is preferably relatively tough. However, there will likely be several sources of buffs and such, so I could possibly take something like a monk and pump it up via the Leaders.

I left off the ones I'm not particularly interested in.

[VeliciaL]

Warlock is a personal favorite of mine. :smallbiggrin:

But yeah, I think we'll need more info here. What do you enjoy? What are you looking for out of a character? What is the rest of your group playing?

EDIT: And it looks like you beat me to the bunch. :smalltongue:

For both tough and heavy hitting, it sounds like barbarian would suit you nicely. Monks also have a reputation for being absuredly hard take down. The aforementioned Blackguard could also work; I'm not familiar with the class but it's essentially a plate-wearing striker.

[Alan_Pehnereas]

I will probably be the main or one of the main sources of damage, and I want to play an aggressive heavy hitter that is preferably relatively tough. However, there will likely be several sources of buffs and such, so I could possibly take something like a monk and pump it up via the Leaders.

I left off the ones I'm not particularly interested in.

Okay. Respectably, I have to disagree on the Blackguard and Monk, as they are probably not what you want. The BG is tough, but it's overall damage capability is not as awesome. Monk can get anywhere on the field and attack a whole bunch of people at once, but is not exactly the man for focus-fire.

I second Barbarian. Very much the heavy hitter. Big weapon, tons of damage, and a really loud voice. Either that or a Slayer, for similar reasons.

[Kurald Galain]

The main question here is, do you want a character with a multitude of options in gameplay, or do you want one that does basically the same thing every round? In the former case, pick avenger/barbarian/monk; whereas in the latter, pick berserker/blackguard/slayer.

Another question is, what power level do you want to play at. The barbarian and slayer are the most powerful here, the monk and blackguard are average, the avenger has some issues and the berserker is pretty weak overall.

[Surrealistik]

It's all about Hellish Chris Hansen (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/713896/Photos/HellishChrisHansen.jpg) and his blazing bolts of fire.

Fire Elementalists are made of win and overwhelming force.

[Nightgaun7]

a character with a multitude of options in gameplay

This

The two I'm most interested in are the Avenger and the Barbarian. What sort of issues does the Avenger have?

[tcrudisi]

This

The two I'm most interested in are the Avenger and the Barbarian. What sort of issues does the Avenger have?

None if you are playing in Paragon tier or up.

The main problem it runs into is it's overall damage. Does it do damage every round? Yep - like clockwork. It won't miss. But just because it hits doesn't mean it's wowing everyone with big damage numbers. It does fine once paragon tier arrives, but it really requires some optimization to compete with the Rangers and Barbarians of the world.

If your leaders grant +damage boosts, Avenger is solid. If they grant +attack boosts ... not as much.

[Surrealistik]

The best/easiest way to optimize damage for both is to make them into Chargecheesers, but that inherently eliminates most of your variety.

[LimeSkeleton]

I will probably be the main or one of the main sources of damage, and I want to play an aggressive heavy hitter that is preferably relatively tough. However, there will likely be several sources of buffs and such, so I could possibly take something like a monk and pump it up via the Leaders.

I left off the ones I'm not particularly interested in.

If you want big damage that's pretty tough, go PHB2 Barbarian. Howling strike at first level means 1(W)+1d6+STR on at at-will, plus some extremely powerful encounter abilities and rage as you level up. Going Rageblood means that you'll have Con as a secondary, meaning high HP as well.

I played a Longtooth Shifter Barbarian in a combat-heavy one-off and I had lots of fun just smacking everything for tons of damage and generally being BA. :smallcool:

[tcrudisi]

If you want big damage that's pretty tough, go PHB2 Barbarian. Howling strike at first level means 1(W)+1d6+STR on at at-will, plus some extremely powerful encounter abilities and rage as you level up. Going Rageblood means that you'll have Con as a secondary, meaning high HP as well.

I played a Longtooth Shifter Barbarian in a combat-heavy one-off and I had lots of fun just smacking everything for tons of damage and generally being BA. :smallcool:

Marked out the incorrect information, at least from an optimization stand-point. Dexterity is the true secondary of the Barbarian. Otherwise it doesn't matter how many hp's you have; you will be hit every single attack and find yourself unconscious most of the time.

[Kurald Galain]

Going Rageblood means that you'll have Con as a secondary, meaning high HP as well.

Every class has high HP; it's called Auspicuous Birth.

[LimeSkeleton]

Yeah, I was mostly going by memory from the optimization thread on the WOTC forums, as I'm certainly no expert.

"Rageblood Barbarians do one thing, and they do it well; big damage and big toughness. They accomplish this by having a Constitution focus and the most charging incentive of all the Barbarian builds (heck, their Encounter power when they drop someone is a free action charge!). They pay for it in low Reflex and Will defenses, though, and they are kind of a one-trick pony."
-Barbarian's Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/charop/wiki/Barbarian/Handbook)

So yeah, the main problem there would be the lower non-AC defenses, correct.

[Leewei]

Rageblood is pretty fun. Dex needs to be high for better AC and Reflex. Con will probably be around 14 if you want to enjoy the THP generated by taking down enemies. There's decent feat and item support for Rageblood Vigor as well.

Barbarians have some difficulty with accuracy, so make sure you optimize toward this end. Starting Strength of either 18 or 20 is pretty much needed for effectiveness. My favorite race for this striker is Goliath, which comes with a nice stat bonus to Str and Con, as well as decent survivability due to Stone's Endurance encounter power. The racial +1 to Will defense is icing on the cake. One other point in favor of the Goliath is the Mark of Victory(?) feat. If you open up a fight triggering a rage, that higher of 2d20 on the first attack makes the opening attack far likelier to hit, or even crit.

[neonchameleon]

As the title indicates, trying to decide what striker to play in an upcoming game.

Options:
Avenger - I love the flavor here
Barbarian - same here
Berserker - pretty much just an essentials barbarian, is it not?
Blackguard - don't know much about this, but I've always wanted to play an antipaladin
Monk (gasp!) - I've heard they are not the best at single target damage but are quite fun to play
Slayer - it's named the Slayer, what more do you need?

What do you want to do?

Each striker does different things in a different way. (The 4e Monk is a wire-fu master, who can fly 30 feet like someone out of Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon as a level 2 encounter utility power).

The Slayer is boring - it's the striker for people who just want to say "I hit it" and not engage with the mechanics.

Beserkers are The Hulk. "You wouldn't like me when I'm angry". They start the fight as defenders and then at some point get mad - their defender aura goes down and they start whaling on the bad guys harder rather than protecting their team.

[Yakk]

How much mechanical complexity do you like?
How much can you handle?

Some strikers are more fiddly than others.


Avenger - I love the flavor here
Acceptable, so long as you worship Ioun. Killer librarians looking for overdue books are awesome.

Barbarian - same here
Easy to screw up, and optimizes into "charge really hard all the time".

Amusingly, wizards optimize to nearly as good of a charger.

Berserker - pretty much just an essentials barbarian, is it not?
More fiddly than the Barbarian, with the phase change. Good if you need a half-tank.

Blackguard - don't know much about this, but I've always wanted to play an antipaladin
Sounds like a good reason to play a Blackguard.

Monk (gasp!) - I've heard they are not the best at single target damage but are quite fun to play
In most games, you are not playing high optimization. So your level of damage becomes how much you want to optimize the class, not what the class provides, if you are willing to do the work.

Pick an optimization level (how many rounds to drop an even-level opponent?) you are aiming for. Figure out how to make a build that hits that target at level 1, 10, 15, 25 and 30, and leaves room for some fun.

Most classes can hit every reasonable optimization level.

Pay attention to how magic items will be distributed in the game: some optimization builds require specific items. Are uncommon/rare items DM fiat only?

Slayer - it's named the Slayer, what more do you need?
Least complex class, most drawn to chargecheese to keep up your damage output.

---

I say "you usually don't play high optimization", because high optimization is sufficient to break 4e. A high optimization striker can outdamage an entire group of non-optimized characters, which makes combat into something rather silly. The DM either has to rescale enemies to deal with your damage output (which sucks for your allies), or ignore it (which sucks for your entire group).

Plus, high optimization often relies on really ridiculous combinations.

---

That being said, my favorite anti-paladin is a Paladin|Warlock Con/Cha hybrid. As a Hybrid, it is high on the fiddly scale. Tiefling for a bunch of tasty feats.

You start off with Hellish Rebuke+Mark for a catch 22, and never look back.

[Blackfang108]

Every class has high HP; it's called Auspicuous Birth.

Some tables unilaterally ban things that cheesy.

[Nightgaun7]

What is this Auspicious Birth of which you speak?

[NecroRebel]

What is this Auspicious Birth of which you speak?

It's a Background benefit from DR366, which makes you use your highest attribute to determine hit points in place of Constitution. Since this affects your bloodied and healing surge values, it's quite powerful, especially in comparison to most other Background benefits.

[Dimers]

The value drops off over time as your total HP rise, but in the first couple levels, it can make a large difference. The main advantage to Auspicious Birth is that if backgrounds are used at all, it's much better than most benefits you can get from other backgrounds. A single language or +2 to one skill will be useful on occasion; more hit points and higher surge value are useful in every combat.

If you take Auspicious Birth, remember that your number of surges per day is still based on Constitution. So if you dump Con, you won't be able to last long compared with the stereotypical party.

[Nightgaun7]

Now that you say it, isn't there some other deal besides backgrounds? Bloodlines or birthrights or something?

[Dimers]

There are also "themes" -- if you're looking in D&DI, "Character Themes".

Themes from Dark Sun simply offer a different set of attack and utility powers you can take in place of your class powers. Other themes offer special abilities (usually minor or very niche, frequently noncombat) at level 1 and when you reach levels 5 and 10, and also offer some utility powers you can learn in place of class/race/skill utilities. There's at least one theme that does both -- gives you special abilities at 1, 5 and 10, and also offers special attacks along with special utilities.

Themes are a (mechanically) much stronger way to make your character different from all the others of her race/class combo than backgrounds are. There are even a few paragon paths that require a certain theme.

EDIT: For example, a Dune Trader themed fighter is a natural leader who directs her team's movement and focus; a Mercenary fighter is dirty and rough; a Knight Hospitaler fighter tends to play in a self-sacrificing and honor-bound way; a Scholar fighter has seen a lot in her time and really knows her targets as a result.

[Nightgaun7]

So they don't increase your ability, they just give you a new option for the ones you already have.

[NecroRebel]

So they don't increase your ability, they just give you a new option for the ones you already have.

Themes actually outright grant new powers and abilities. You take a theme (which has no cost; if they're allowed at all, they're free), and you get a free power and/or special ability at level 1, and most of the later themes also grant a free power and/or special ability at levels 5 and 10. Many themes additionally grant the option to take certain utility powers in place of your normal class powers.

I can see how you could parse what Dimers said as not increasing your character's power, but the correct reading is "They grant extra abilities. Furthermore, some give access to different powers," as opposed to how you seemed to read it as "They grant access to different abilities and powers."

[Ashdate]

So they don't increase your ability, they just give you a new option for the ones you already have.

As far as I recall, they all increase your ability, at least a little bit. The free encounter attack power alone is very useful at low levels where otherwise characters only tend to have one class encounter attack power.

There's basically no reason not to take one, as long as your DM allows them, but (as with any optional feature) check with him first.

My two cents on the Auspicious Birth thing: yeah it's kind of cheesy. Personally, I'd never take it because the option is super boring (but I could say that about all backgrounds), but then again, you'll need to check with your DM about what features he'd allow in the game.

[Kurald Galain]

As far as I recall, they all increase your ability, at least a little bit.

Yes, they do. Several of them have static bonuses (like +1 to will or +2 to damage) which are clearly an increase. Also, several have a level-1 power that's not a standard action, meaning you can use it in addition to your class powers, rather than instead of them. It's an action economy thing. This means that picking the right theme gives a clear and visible boost to character power.

(edit) and yes, I also ban Auspicuous Birth because it's flat-out better than all other backgrounds. I don't think backgrounds are even necessary any more now that themes exist, because they basically fill the same design space.

[Dimers]

As far as I recall, they all increase your ability, at least a little bit. The free encounter attack power alone is very useful at low levels where otherwise characters only tend to have one class encounter attack power.

I was thinking that the ten Dark Sun Campaign Setting themes only offered powerswaps, but that's wrong. They do each get an encounter power at character creation; they just don't get anything at levels 5 or 10 like most themes do.

@OP: Not only do quite a few themes have an extra encounter power, a lot of them are minor-action, free-action or even no-action, which improves your character's action economy A LOT for a freebie early in the game. And since themes are meant to work with lots of character concepts, the attack rolls for those encounter powers almost always use your best attribute score. They're a flavorful power-up. Can't ask for more than that from life :smallcool:

[Nightgaun7]

Sounds good to me! Having to pick one juicy ability per level or so saddens me. I want them all!

[dariathalon]

First, I think it's been said, but it bears repeating. Check with your DM if they'll allow them. I usually don't because I don't like the majority of them.

Also, note that each theme usually gives you one specific extra power. You choose this theme? Okay you get this one (usually encounter) power. Now as you level up, you DO NOT get more powers you can actually use, just a wider array to choose from. That will add to your problems of liking many powers but only getting to choose one, not take away from it.

[Nightgaun7]

Gotta say, I hate the tendency a lot of games have to give you a bunch of sweet abilities to choose from and then they say "pick one". If there were 6 choices and you could pick 3 it would be much more appealing.

[dariathalon]

Then you might want to look into the different varieties of wizard. I know they're called controllers, but you tell that to the blaster wizard I have in my real-life game. He is at least equal to, if not out-damaging the group's striker most of the time, and still able to provide some control.

Most varieties of wizard get the spellbook feature (or something similar). This means they get to choose multiples of several types of power to have access to, though they are still only able to ready one of their options of each level at a time. They can trade between them more freely though.

I'm actually kind of glad that they give so many options, it helps keep things fresh. You can create two different fighters, for example, that play very differently. If you were able to select half of the powers available, the two probably wouldn't be nearly as distinct mechanically. It would also be a lot more difficult to keep track of all the options I had each turn. And if you decide you really want to have one of the other options, remember you can trade one out each level.

[Nightgaun7]

By RAW, can you take both a theme and a background? They seem to be a bit different in terms of function.

[NecroRebel]

By RAW, can you take both a theme and a background? They seem to be a bit different in terms of function.

If each is allowed, yes. They are both explicitly optional rules, though, IIRC, so strictly speaking by RAW they aren't allowed at all (in the same way that inherent bonuses aren't allowed by RAW).

[masteraleph]

By RAW, can you take both a theme and a background? They seem to be a bit different in terms of function.

RAW, yes. Backgrounds tend to be more inoffensive, other than maybe Auspicious Birth/Born Under A Bad Sign for low level characters (those 2 backgrounds use your highest stat for HP calculations, which doesn't make a huge difference when you're in Paragon or Epic but is a big deal at level 1). Themes are definitely more powerful, but they do a lot for allowing concepts that are more difficult without them or for evening out power differentials (melee Rangers don't really benefit that much, relatively speaking from a minor action attack; classes that don't get minor action attacks benefit greatly from them).

[Nightgaun7]

Is there a comprehensive list of the theme sources? So far I've found ones from Neverwinter, Dragon, and Dark Sun.

[NecroRebel]

Is there a comprehensive list of the theme sources? So far I've found ones from Neverwinter, Dragon, and Dark Sun.

You could use the D&D Insider Compendium (http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/) and sort by Character Themes - this will show you where to find all of them. You can do this even if you do not have an Insider subscription, though finding out where those that appear in multiple places are exactly is somewhat trickier.

[masteraleph]

Looks like, in addition to Neverwinter, Dragon Magazine, and Dark Sun:

Heroes of the Feywild
Heroes of the Elemental Chaos
Into the Unknown: The Dungeon Survival Handbook
The Book of Vile Darkness

Council of Spiders has some, but I think they're all available in other source material.

Note that Dark Sun themes, BoVD themes, and Dragon themes specific to either BoVD or Eberron are illegal in LFR, because they're too closely tied to another setting or require/imply being of an evil alignment.

[Lord Haart]

Gotta say, I hate the tendency a lot of games have to give you a bunch of sweet abilities to choose from and then they say "pick one". If there were 6 choices and you could pick 3 it would be much more appealing.


Then you might want to look into the different varieties of wizard. I know they're called controllers, but you tell that to the blaster wizard I have in my real-life game. He is at least equal to, if not out-damaging the group's striker most of the time, and still able to provide some control.

Most varieties of wizard get the spellbook feature (or something similar). This means they get to choose multiples of several types of power to have access to, though they are still only able to ready one of their options of each level at a time. They can trade between them more freely though.

There's also the Sha'Ir (Heroes of Elemental Chaos), which is the only class in 4e that i can call a true successor to prepared casters of old editions (even 4e wizard's mechanics feels like a cross between a sorcerer and a swordsage). Whenever Sha'Ir ends an extended rest, he can replace any of his wizard daily or utility powers with another level-appropriate one. I still can't figure if it should be read as "you replace it for that day (so you can't have more than one replaced at the same time" or "you replace it, end of story, next day you're free to do something else" (help, anyone?), but even in first case you have a full access to the entire body of wizard dailies and utilities, picking whichever of them you'll need today all willy-nilly without having to note that on your charsheet in advance.

[Kurald Galain]

There's also the Sha'Ir (Heroes of Elemental Chaos), which is the only class in 4e that i can call a true successor to prepared casters of old editions (even 4e wizard's mechanics feels like a cross between a sorcerer and a swordsage).
Not quite. He can simply retrain one power per day, whereas everybody else can retrain one power per levelup.

If you want a striker wizard, I'd recommend going evoker&pyromancer mage, or simply staff of defense arcanist. The best race for this is genasi, for the elemental empowerment feat.

[Nightgaun7]

So lets say I am playing a Rageborn Minotaur barbarian.

Here're a few I could use or refluff easily enough
1. Uthgardt Barbarian from NWCS
2. Escaped Thrall from Dungeon Survival Handbook
3. Wasteland Nomad from DSCS

I haven't looked at any of the Dragon stuff yet though

Any of those worth bothering with?

[masteraleph]

Iron Wolf Warrior from Dragon 400 might well be worth it (bonuses on charge attack, and some actually interesting power swaps all the way up the line). Outlaw is ok, ditto Mercenary (both D399). Sohei (D404) and Ironwrought (HotEC) are both very strong, but might not match up well flavorwise. Fey Beast Tamer (HotEC) is good for most characters in the game, but might also be out on flavor (though you could probably flavor your fey beast as something more natural, or as a young owlbear you met in the wilderness, or something). Of the ones you mentioned, Escaped Thrall is probably the best.

[Nightgaun7]

Thanks, that's very helpful