Vampire Help

[Fecar]

My fiance and I have been playing in a campaign off and on going from level 1 to 5. She plays a Drow Vampire and while she really enjoys the fluff and the flavour of the powers, she is starting to feel the power difference between her and the rest of the party. When/if we get to play again I was hoping to have an updated character for her to play; I make her characters after she gives me direction in what she wants.

Details:

We are level 5, level 6 is not too far away
Currently in the underdark
Party consists of Vampire, O-Fighter, Blackguard, O-Rogue, Sentinel (myself)
The other characters are fairly optimized
Have access to the character builder and all materials are allowed
My fiance loves the durability of the Vampire and often goes out by herself into combat against multiple enemies



The DM allows for total reworking of the character mechanically as long as it stays the same race and we limit the thematic changes to very minor ones or ones that are easily explained away with a story excuse. Since the character has already multiclassed to rogue and carries a dagger I was considering rebuilding as Drow Rogue, multiclassed to Vampire at level 1 and working from there getting the full feel of the Vampire class before starting to optimize the character. I do not need to eek out every bit of damage possible but I do want to get the character more in line with the rest of the group.

I would like to keep the same stats (at level 5):
12 Str
12 Con
19 Dex
8 Int
10 Wis
19 Cha

Feats:
Vampirism (Level 1)
Martial Vampire (Level 2)
???Blood Thirst (Level 4)???

I am not sure about Blood Thirst as being a useful feat. It will complete the trifecta of vampire multiclass feats but it doesnt seem worth it. Martial Vampire already does something very similar, but better, and more.

The more I think about it, the more I am leaning towards just taking Vampirism and Martial Vampire at level 1 and 2 and then building a normal artful dodger rogue.


I have read that the best way to make a vampire stronger is to just make a multiclass vampire but never really hear much about the exact details.

[Kurald Galain]

I would strongly recommend using the Vampire Bloodline feat from dragon magazine, rather than the vampire class from 4.4. Just pick a solid class (like rogue) and tack on that feat for the flavor, and you'll be more effective than using the much-maligned shadow class. Seriously, the whole vampire class guide in the WOTC optimization forum is five pages of "don't play one".

You may want to spend some feats on durability, as well as take the Born Under A Bad Sign background.

[Epinephrine]

I think the normal approach is to hybrid the vampire in order to get decent powers. I'm not sure if you can do enough with a multiclass, but I am not in front of my books. I wonder if going hybrid with something like Blackguard could work (pick Charisma-based attack powers from Paladin), or if rogue and sorcerer are the best Dex/Cha type classes.

[Fecar]

I would strongly recommend using the Vampire Bloodline feat from dragon magazine, rather than the vampire class from 4.4. I was listing the feats from Dragon 400 (not 402, the compendium is wrong) which are for making a multiclass or hybrid Vampire using the 4.E/4.4/Essentials (however its being abbraviated now).

The Bloodline feats from Dragon 371 feel more like making a half-vampire like Blade/V/Alucard. You are not undead, not vulnerable to radiant, not weak to sunlight and you do not gain regen equal to charisma mod.


Just pick a solid class (like rogue) and tack on that feat for the flavor, and you'll be more effective than using the much-maligned shadow class. Yup, that was what I was starting with. The straight vampire from essentials has problems.
Seriously, the whole vampire class guide in the WOTC optimization forum is five pages of "don't play one". WOTC boards is my first stop for optimization when making characters but I could not find any resouces over there.


You may want to spend some feats on durability, as well as take the Born Under A Bad Sign background.
Born Under a Bad Sign is always good advice and I will be adding that.

[Fecar]

I think the normal approach is to hybrid the vampire in order to get decent powers. I'm not sure if you can do enough with a multiclass, but I am not in front of my books. I wonder if going hybrid with something like Blackguard could work (pick Charisma-based attack powers from Paladin), or if rogue and sorcerer are the best Dex/Cha type classes.

I do not see much advantage of going Rogue|Vampire vs Rogue multiclassed into Vampire. I only see disadvantages.

The hybrid rogue is weaker then a pure rogue.
The hybrid vampire gains extremely little over the Vampirism multiclass feat.

Am I missing something?

[Alejandro]

Since the Vampire does not need to breathe, are there any ways she could exploit being in caves and caverns (the Underdark) to her advantage? For example, if she could cause a lot of smoke or fire, she might rapidly consume or contaminate the local oxygen, causing big problems for any enemies nearby that need it, unlike her.

Of course, that also isn't very party friendly.

[Kurald Galain]

The Bloodline feats from Dragon 371 feel more like making a half-vampire like Blade/V/Alucard. You are not undead, not vulnerable to radiant, not weak to sunlight and you do not gain regen equal to charisma mod.

Here's the thing. The Vampirism feat from dragon 400 makes your character much, much weaker. You lose all your healing surges except two, get vulnerability to radiant, and now you have to beg and drain your teammates for surges. The regen-while-bloodied is too little to actually help you in combat. I'm not sure why you would want to spend a feat to become vulnerable to sunlight, but by the rules sunlight doesn't actually affect vampires anyway.

Then you spend a second feat to more-or-less make up for crippling yourself with your first feat. You end up two feats behind the rest of the team, and you said they were reasonably optimized.

The solution: play a Revenant rogue, and now you're actually undead and don't need to breathe.

[Surrealistik]

You do keep your extra surges from Constitution. Only surges granted by your class are reduced to 2.

When paired with another feat like Martial Vampire, Vampirism is a pretty strong option if you're Charisma specialized (or it's at least your secondary stat), though it's a pity that it takes up your multiclass.

[windgate]

Yeah, don't play a vampire. Nothing you can do with the build (even as a hybrid) will make you competitive with a non-essentials class.

Here a suggestion:
Ignore the name of the class. Make a list of the reasons why she wanted to be a vampire, and look for a class/build that can achieve it mechanically. Then just rename whatever you made into "vampire".

[Fecar]

Since the Vampire does not need to breathe, are there any ways she could exploit being in caves and caverns (the Underdark) to her advantage? For example, if she could cause a lot of smoke or fire, she might rapidly consume or contaminate the local oxygen, causing big problems for any enemies nearby that need it, unlike her.

Of course, that also isn't very party friendly.

This happened much earlier in the campaign. The DM started off with the campaign of H1 keep on the shadowfell and modified it. He kept the map and traps the same though so when the vampire charged ahead and triggered the drowning trap (get trapped in a small area as it fills up with water) the DM sat there stumped as the rest of the party ignored it and the vampire swam around.


When paired with another feat like Martial Vampire, Vampirism is a pretty strong option if you're Charisma specialized (or it's at least your secondary stat), though it's a pity that it takes up your multiclass.
This has been my view on it and depending on the number of fights in the day, can greatly increase your effective healing surges per day.

[vasharanpaladin]

I think the normal approach is to hybrid the vampire in order to get decent powers. I'm not sure if you can do enough with a multiclass, but I am not in front of my books. I wonder if going hybrid with something like Blackguard could work (pick Charisma-based attack powers from Paladin), or if rogue and sorcerer are the best Dex/Cha type classes.

The normal approach is, in fact, to play ANYTHING ELSE and write "vampire" somewhere on the sheet. The class is just that bad.


You do keep your extra surges from Constitution. Only surges granted by your class are reduced to 2.


Stealth-errata's annoying, isn't it? If you're any form of vampire your surges are reset to 2. No Con bonus, full stop.

OP, your best bet is to simply not be a vampire at all. If you absolutely must, acquire it by means of the Vampirism feat.

[Surrealistik]

Stealth-errata's annoying, isn't it? If you're any form of vampire your surges are reset to 2. No Con bonus, full stop.

Yeah, that kind of sucks.

Still, with Martial Vampire and the like it can still be very much worthwhile depending on your surge consumption, and synergies like say, the Runepriest's Scroll of Protection, lol.

[Firebug]

Perhaps the Executioner Assassin isn't that far fetched concept-wise?

Something like ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 5
Drow, Assassin (Executioner)/Warlock
Guild Attacks (Hybrid) Option: Red Scales (Hybrid)
Hybrid Assassin (Executioner) Option: Hybrid Executioner Fortitude
Eldritch Pact (Hybrid) Option: Dark Pact (Hybrid)
Hybrid Warlock Option: Hybrid Warlock Will
Eldritch Strike Option: Eldritch Strike Constitution
Blood Drain Option: Blood Drain Dexterity
Theme: Guardian

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 8, CON 18, DEX 18, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 15

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 8, CON 17, DEX 15, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 13


AC: 19 Fort: 18 Ref: 17 Will: 16
HP: 50 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 12

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +11, Endurance +11, Stealth +13

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +2, Athletics +1, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +2, Heal +2, History +2, Insight +4, Intimidate +7, Nature +2, Perception +4, Religion +2, Streetwise +4, Thievery +6

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Guardian Attack: Guardian's Counter
Drow Racial Power: Cloud of Darkness
Assassin Attack: Garrote Strangle
Assassin Attack: Quick Lunge
Warlock's Curse Power: Warlock's Curse
Feat Attack: Blood Drain
: Swap Daily For Poison Recipe
Warlock Attack 1: Eldritch Strike
Assassin Attack 1: Gloom Thief
Acrobatics Utility 2: Agile Recovery
Warlock Attack 3: Delban's Deadly Attention
Warlock Attack 5: Hellsworn Blessing

FEATS
Vampiric Heritage
Level 2: Cursed Shadow
Level 4: Ki Focus Expertise

ITEMS
Carrion Crawler Brain Juice
Magic Ki Focus +2 x1
Leather Armor of Dark Majesty +1 x1
Amulet of Protection +1 x1
Garrote
Rapier x1
====== End ====== Perhaps?

You can actually use blood drain, since Garrote Strangle does grab them. Though looking at it, Garrote Strangle says you can't make other attacks...

[neonchameleon]

Rather than a Rogue I'd go for a Monk. It's as tough as the vampire, more insanely mobile than the vampire and generally a good match for the concept. Monastic Vampire is weaker than Martial Vampire but hey. The Monk can keep up (generally by finding then beating up the artillery - or AoEs against multiple foes).

[Kurald Galain]

Perhaps the Executioner Assassin isn't that far fetched concept-wise?

It is, unfortunately, also very much an underpowered class.

[Epinephrine]

It is, unfortunately, also very much an underpowered class.
For all the complaints about it, a player in my current campaign is running one, and does pretty well with it. She's playing an Ossassin/Soul Thief with a MC rogue (for sneak attack 1/encounter and a power swap for low slash, IIRC) and Sohei as a theme.

She starts many fights with 4 shrouds on a target for +4d8+20 on that first attack (thanks to the feat that prevents enemies noticing shrouds and a super stealth skill), can dump additional shrouds on enemies by using "soul shards" upping her damage substantially. She's also (despite having the lowest HP) the toughest tank in the group, thanks to her immediate interrupt insubstantial twice per encounter (and she can extend one of them by a round, and can get another round via Shadowl Jack, for up to 4 rounds a fight insubstantial), and her very solid defenses since she teleports pretty much every round gaining a +2 bonus to AC and Reflex. Her novae are pretty decent thanks to the shrouds and action point feature of the Soul Thief, along with minor action attacks.

Maybe it's not CharOp level striking, but she delivers her share of damage pretty well, and is impressively hard to take out (unless you manage to daze her, at which point the lack of immediate actions means she takes full damage).

[Kurald Galain]

For all the complaints about it, a player in my current campaign is running one, and does pretty well with it.
But the OP explicitly noted that his group is reasonably optimized. That means that a class that "my friend has fun playing with" is not necessarily the best choice for him.

...after all, it's a striker. A striker is not supposed to do "pretty well" with a "pretty decent" nova. A striker nova is supposed to make your DM go "you did how much damage?!" And that's without optimization shenanigans, that's what the role is for.

[Firebug]

It is, unfortunately, also very much an underpowered class.

Depends on the rest of the party really. Exe|Lock is pretty up there in damage, on the order of 2d8+2d6 + stat at level 1 with its MBA (with another +4 and slowing all encounter 1/day) without any gear at all. And it applies to granted attacks and the guardian triggered attack. Only issue is not many minor action attacks, and both damage features are once per turn.

[Epinephrine]

But the OP explicitly noted that his group is reasonably optimized. That means that a class that "my friend has fun playing with" is not necessarily the best choice for him.

...after all, it's a striker. A striker is not supposed to do "pretty well" with a "pretty decent" nova. A striker nova is supposed to make your DM go "you did how much damage?!" And that's without optimization shenanigans, that's what the role is for.

Her action point rounds generally drop non-brutes in a turn, so she does alright. I just voiced it because I don't find that she's behind the curve in our group; it's not a completely hopeless class, just not top tier. It obviously works best if you have the ability to start every fight with the +4d8+20 bonus damage, which catches up a fair bit on the expected damage per fight, and a lot of her damage now comes from the Soul Thief paragon path, thanks to both the decent AP bonus and the ability to pound out a large number of extra shrouds per fight.

[Fecar]

Thanks for the replies, I have had a busy weekend and only just now been able to return to this.

I did make a Rogue with multiclass into Vampire using the feats from Dragon 400. The items are placeholders.
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Night, level 5
Drow, Rogue (Scoundrel)
Rogue Tactics Option: Artful Dodger
Rogue Option: Scoundrel Weapon Talent
Darkfire Option: Darkfire Charisma
Born Under a Bad Sign (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 12, CON 12, DEX 19, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 19

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 12, CON 12, DEX 16, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 16


AC: 19 Fort: 14 Ref: 19 Will: 17
HP: 51 Surges: 2 Surge Value: 12

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +11, Athletics +8, Intimidate +13, Perception +7, Stealth +13, Thievery +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +1, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Dungeoneering +2, Endurance +3, Heal +2, History +1, Insight +2, Nature +2, Religion +1, Streetwise +6

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Drow Racial Power: Darkfire
Rogue Attack 1: Piercing Strike
Rogue Attack 1: Deft Strike
Rogue Attack 1: Blinding Barrage
Rogue Attack 1: Dazing Strike
Rogue Utility 2: Tumble
Rogue Attack 3: Low Slash
Rogue Attack 5: Bloodbath

FEATS
Level 1: Vampirism
Level 2: Martial Vampire
Level 4: Backstabber

ITEMS
Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier) x1
Magic Leather Armor +1 x1
Magic Dagger +1 x1
Amulet of Protection +1 x1
====== End ======

With combat advantage, will be hitting against average reflex using piercing strike on a 3. The two vampire feats give charisma mod (+4) regeneration while bloodied, two extra surges each fight (one to keep for end of encounter to get back to full hitpoints, other can be used up by a heal/second wind/potion), undead shenanigans and vampire weakness crunch (pro as the player wants it, con as it does make her a lot weaker).

Comparing the old vampire to one above, at will damage with combat advantage:
Vampire Slam: +7 (+9 with CA) vs Ref; 1d10+11 (crit is 21+1d6)
Average damage: (30% chance of 0 dmg)+(65% chance of 16.5 dmg)+(5% chance of 24.5 dmg) = 11.95

Piercing Strike: +11 (+13 with CA) vs Ref; 1d4+2d8+7 (crit is 27+1d6)
Average damage: (10% chance of 0 dmg)+(85% chance of 18.5 dmg)+(5% chance of 30.5 dmg) = 17.25

Assuming target has Reflex = [level] + 11 and fighting equal level monster.



Rather than a Rogue I'd go for a Monk. It's as tough as the vampire, more insanely mobile than the vampire and generally a good match for the concept. Monastic Vampire is weaker than Martial Vampire but hey. The Monk can keep up (generally by finding then beating up the artillery - or AoEs against multiple foes).

I will have to build one when I get some free time to see how it looks. The increased mobility may be something that will attract her, as well as the multi-target abilities.


Perhaps the Executioner Assassin isn't that far fetched concept-wise?I have also heard that Executioner Assassin is underpowered in higher optimization games.



While I have not gotten a concise list of what she wants from her "Vampire" I do know that she often gets option paralysis at the table so anything too complicated is a no-go. Having her play a Swordmage only lasted two sessions before we had to rebuild her as a Slayer and that was with doing some one on one sessions to get her familar with the Swordmage.

[Dan Arcueid]

Comparing the old vampire to one above, at will damage with combat advantage:

I will have to build one when I get some free time to see how it looks. The increased mobility may be something that will attract her, as well as the multi-target abilities.

I have also heard that Executioner Assassin is underpowered in higher optimization games.



While I have not gotten a concise list of what she wants from her "Vampire" I do know that she often gets option paralysis at the table so anything too complicated is a no-go. Having her play a Swordmage only lasted two sessions before we had to rebuild her as a Slayer and that was with doing some one on one sessions to get her familar with the Swordmage.

Few ideas.

1. If you're not attached to Drow, human can be a nice option as vampire can be feat intensive and the extra at-will can be nice, not a requirement though it just makes early game easier.

Alternatively if you can make it work (might be hard though with rogue) Half Elf can be nice because multiclass dillente basically makes you a vampire without any of the downsides or regen but leaving you open for power swap feats if you want.


2. If done right vampire executioner hybrid can be a nice combination just like paladin vampire (prettymuch best hybrid options)

Hybrid rogue/vampire can work you just need to focus primarily on high dpr rogue skills where you can and for your 2nd at-will use something like taste of life which has decent temp hp for yourself as a backup skill.

3. As for the other vampire it's hard to keep it simple though a humorous combo i found once for multiclass could work.

Barbarian (Berserker) MC Vampirism STR/CHA setup. The berserker counts both as primal and martial. Get primal vampire for the 2 extra surges, martial for the 1 extra when bloodied ( get a theme that has a martial attack power for more surge stealing). Later you can get durable for 2 more surges.

With that you can have regen+6 surges daily + stealing more per encounter. Then from there defense-wise you just need to figure out if you want to weaken charisma a bit for some dex for some extra AC/Reflex. Getting thirst for blood at this point is then complely optional.

Playing it would be simple enough though i never got to test it but it didn't seem like that bad of a setup as Barbarians have skills that can utilize the higher charisma and you get to have alot of the vampire goodies while laughing at the surge issue.

4. This is all obviously assuming no homebrew is to take place. Honestly the class isn't horrid, you can get around the surge issue in many cases just the class suffers from a lack of options and their dpr looking nice around heroic tier and being badly underpowered epic tier as things like blood drinker having prettymuch no scaling and they're static damage bonus hidden might striker feature not keeping your at-wills on par. So mixing it with other classes generally is the best option when going the non homebrew route