[3.5] Caster Level + Mystic Ranger + Spellthief Shenanigans

[RFLS]

Question: Assume a 9th level character. The build is Spellthief 1/Combat Wizard 1/Mystic (Shooting Star) Ranger 7. The character possesses the feats Master Spellthief and Sword of the Arcane Order. What is this character's caster level?

Here are the points where I get stuck:


I'm not sure what a Mystic Ranger's default CL is. The ACF doesn't alter it, but if it remains 1/2, the Mystic Ranger can't cast his spells at 1st level.
I'm not sure if Sword of the Arcane Order grants an arcane caster level.
I'm also not sure if you can actually combine the Shooting Star sub levels with Mystic Ranger.
How does Master Spellthief interact with all of this?


Even assuming it doesn't produce an insane caster level, I'm going to stick with it, I think. Having a Duskblade-esque casting progression on that chassis, but with all the versatility of wizard spells, seems very powerful.

[Fax Celestis]

It's...complicated.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95070

The RAW is that you lump all your caster classes together when determining your CL. The RAI, I think, is to add your spellthief level to whatever caster classes you have when determining your CL for that specific class.

So in your example (and because of the way Master Spellthief works), your CL, regardless of whatever classes you had would be equal to your Spellthief level + other class level even if those classes generally cast at 1/2 caster level. Your example would cast at CL 9 for wizard, spellthief, and mystic ranger spells (assuming RAW) or CL 8 (assuming RAI). Not that you'd have any spellthief spells, or any spells for wizard beyond first.

[RFLS]

I'm not sure I quite agree. Here's my reasoning:


Initial CLs are as follows:

Spellthief: 0
Wizard: 1
Ranger: 7 (we'll assume Mystic Ranger grants full CL for now)

Adding SotAO does this:

Spellthief: 0
Wizard: 8
Ranger: 7

Now we add Shooting Star:

Spellthief: 0
Wizard: 8
Ranger: 7 (initial) + 2 (bonus from Shooting Star) + 8 (stacking from Wizard) = 17

And finally, Master Spellthief:

Spellthief: 0 (Can steal 4th level spells)
Wizard: 26
Ranger: 26



I'm fully aware it's a very, very dicey set of interpretations, but I'm interested in the RAW. For playing....I'll probably self-inflict a cap of CL = HD.

EDIT: Typo on the level of spell able to be stolen.

[Andion Isurand]

I would impose my custom errata.

Complete Scoundrel, page 79
The Master Spellthief feat is altered to revise the following excerpt: "Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells."
The revision reads as follows: "When determining the caster level for any arcane spell you cast, you may add your spellthief class levels together with every other class level that advances some kind of arcane spellcasting."


House Rules and Custom Errata (http://magerune.blogspot.com/2011/10/houserules-and-custom-errata.html)

[RFLS]

I would impose my custom errata.

Complete Scoundrel, page 79
The Master Spellthief feat is altered to revise the following excerpt: "Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells."
The revision reads as follows: "When determining the caster level for any arcane spell you cast, you may add your spellthief class levels together with every other class level that advances some kind of arcane spellcasting."


House Rules and Custom Errata (http://magerune.blogspot.com/2011/10/houserules-and-custom-errata.html)

Yes. Very balanced. Similar, in fact, to what I said I would be self-imposing. However. The question was about the RAW surrounding that combination of classes and feats.

[Fax Celestis]

And finally, Master Spellthief:

My one issue here: while you technically don't have the ability to cast spells as a 1st level spellthief, Master Spellthief would still give you a caster level. It would also be 26.

[RFLS]

My one issue here: while you technically don't have the ability to cast spells as a 1st level spellthief, Master Spellthief would still give you a caster level. It would also be 26.

Hrm....I'm not sure it would. It just says Spellthief and arcane CL stack to determine your CL for all arcane spells.

[Fouredged Sword]

The way I read it

"Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells" means run a tally throughout your build.

I wouldn't allow loops. You do a single pass in the order best suited for that particular use.

SO

Spellthief - Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells

Sword of the Arcane Order - the sum of your wizard, paladin, and ranger class levels stack for caster level.

These do basically the same thing. Note they stack LEVELS in the classes directly, not adding Caster levels together.

This means that, at the levels stated you would have a Spellcasters levels and Caster levels

Spellthief - 1CL per level - 6 effective levels - CL 6
Wizard - 1CL per level - 6 effective levels - CL 6
Ranger - .1CL per level (assuming nice DM) - 6 effective levels for arcane casting 6 for divine casting - CL 5 for arcane spells, CL 2 for non arcane spells

Does anyone see issue with my reasoning here?

[Fax Celestis]

Hrm....I'm not sure it would. It just says Spellthief and arcane CL stack to determine your CL for all arcane spells.

...and spellthieves cast arcane spells.

[RFLS]

...and spellthieves cast arcane spells.

Not at first level, they don't.

[Fax Celestis]

Not at first level, they don't.

Doesn't matter. The feat says your spellthief and arcane caster levels stack to determine your CL for all arcane casting classes. A paladin still has a spell list at 3rd level--this is why he can use a wand of cure light wounds without UMD. Same thing with spellthieves.

[Fouredged Sword]

The example given in the master spellthief feat states that a spellthief 4 / wizard 4 casts at Cl 8 for both.

Also note that spellthiefs lack a clause in their class entry for a lower caster level or stating they start gaining caster level at some given point, thus start gaining 1 caster level per level from 1st level on. They have a caster level before they can cast spells actually.

[RFLS]

Doesn't matter. The feat says your spellthief and arcane caster levels stack to determine your CL for all arcane casting classes. A paladin still has a spell list at 3rd level--this is why he can use a wand of cure light wounds without UMD. Same thing with spellthieves.


The example given in the master spellthief feat states that a spellthief 4 / wizard 4 casts at Cl 8 for both.

Also note that spellthiefs lack a clause in their class entry for a lower caster level or stating they start gaining caster level at some given point, thus start gaining 1 caster level per level from 1st level on. They have a caster level before they can cast spells actually.

Huh. Interesting. ♫ the more you know ♫

[gorfnab]

If you worried about CL for a first level Spellthief you could take the Trickster Spellthief ACF from Dragon #353.

[RFLS]

If you worried about CL for a first level Spellthief you could take the Trickster Spellthief ACF from Dragon #353.

No, I think Fouredged and Fax were right on that one. Spellthief 1 has a CL of 1. I should go and look at the calculations again to see if that changes anything. I suspect it'll boost overall CLs by 2 or 3.

[RFLS]

Does anyone else have any input? I'd really like some sort of consensus here.

[RFLS]

Rearranged some stuff. This is...more entertaining.


Initial CLs are as follows:

Spellthief: 1
Wizard: 1
Ranger: 7 (we'll assume Mystic Ranger grants full CL for now)

Adding SotAO does this:

Spellthief: 1
Wizard: 8
Ranger: 7

Now we add Master Spellthief:

Spellthief: 16
Wizard: 16
Ranger: 16

And finally, Shooting Star:

Spellthief: 16
Wizard: 16
Ranger: 32