What Can Ghosts Touch? Let's Grapple!

[intothenight]

One of my melee party members is working on a good grapple build. He took the Kensai PrC and added Ghost Touch to his unarmed strike. What kind of stuff should he be able to grapple or shut down? Specifically, what kind of interaction would that have with enemies using:

-Teleport
-Incorporeality
-Etherealness
-Freedom of Movement
-Gate
-Ectoplasmic Form
-other stuff along that line

Also, for things that Ghost Touch grapple wouldn't be effective on, how would that change? Homebrewed spells or feat trees, or is there something in an actual sourcebook that can help here?

Oh, and just to keep the grappler from being too comfortable, are there any good counters for the grappled to employ against a surprisingly effective grapple?

[Rubik]

According to the incorporeal subtype (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype), incorporeal creatures are immune to grapple, and ghost touch doesn't overcome that, and neither do [force] effects like Telekinesis. Incorporeals have no Strength score, so they couldn't grapple regardless. The only way to grapple manifesting ghosts and whatnot is to force them to become corporeal and push them into having a Strength score -- though I have no idea what the Str score of, say, a wraith would be. 10? 15? No idea.

[Crasical]

... So what happens if you throw a Ghost Touch net at an incoporeal creature?

[Norin]

I asked about something similar in this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15788421&postcount=1425) but got no reply yet.

I also found this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194455) from a while back that contradicts your statement Rubik.

Is there any sage\faq sort of place where it's officialy stated that it's not possible to grapple them even with force spells?

It really got me thinking after using it a few sessions ago vs a ghost.

[Rubik]

I asked about something similar in this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15788421&postcount=1425) but got no reply yet.

I also found this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194455) from a while back that contradicts your statement Rubik.

Is there any sage\faq sort of place where it's officialy stated that it's not possible to grapple them even with force spells?

It really got me thinking after using it a few sessions ago vs a ghost.Anyone saying that incorporeal creatures can grapple other incorporeals or force effects is mistaken. The subtype explicitly says they're immune to grapple and cannot grapple themselves. Anything that tries to force a grapple check, including force effects, fails, unless the effect in question explicitly explains that it can grapple incorporeals and how to do so.

Specific overcomes general, don'chaknow.

[danzibr]

I agree with the great cube. I mean Rubik.

It appears by RAW it is absolutely impossible for an incorporeal creature to be involved in a grapple. I'd personally house rule it and say the Monk could grapple incorporeal creatures.

[cerin616]

Ghost touch can be thought of as "functions as if it were incorporeal"

since incorporeal cannot grapple, ghost touch cannot be used to grapple. In fact, ghost touch on a weapon states only "deals damage as normal" and says nothing about any other attack properties (such as tripping)

the spiritjaws spell is a bit more complex. Primarily because i feel like the spell shouldn't involve grapple checks at all.

[Lord Vukodlak]

However... ghosts are only incorporeal when they manifest on the material plane, the part left behind on the ethereal plane is not incorporeal and thus susceptible to grapple so long as its an effect that extends into the ethereal plane.

[Psyren]

... So what happens if you throw a Ghost Touch net at an incoporeal creature?

He goes through the ground and escapes? :smalltongue:

But yeah, RAW is that incorporeal = immune to grapple, even by a force or GT effect.

Pity, I was really looking forward to nabbing that ghost with Bigby's Grasping Hand.

[Crasical]

Net
[...] If you hit, the target is entangled. An entangled creature takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty on Dexterity, can move at only half speed, and cannot charge or run. If you control the trailing rope by succeeding on an opposed Strength check while holding it, the entangled creature can move only within the limits that the rope allows.


Ghost Touch
A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. (An incorporeal creature’s 50% chance to avoid damage does not apply to attacks with ghost touch weapons.) The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder.

Nonability STR means that "The creature automatically fails Strength checks", so I think throwing a ghost-touch net over a ghost entangles it and keeps it from moving further than the length of lead your trailing rope.

[Psyren]

That depends. While the net doesn't say "grapple," using it to restrict the incorporeal's movement could still count as "physically manipulating an opponent" and thus they would ignore it.