Primary Defense: Hit Points

[Primal Fury]

I am currently working on a class that will rely solely on physical toughness (hit points) to survive in combat. I understand that save or suck effects will be a problem, which is why they will eventually become functionaly immune to them, by way of an Evasion-style ability for Fortitude saves. My only question now is: What is a reasonable amount of bonus hit points to give without it being overpowered or horribly weak?

[Glimbur]

What do you mean by 'rely solely on hit points'? Do they have armor class? Can they benefit from concealment/miss chance? Do they still make Reflex saves for half damage?

I'm imagining things like "take 10 hit points of damage instead of being slowed" and "take 30 instead of being petrified". If that is the case, I would throw another 5 or 6 hp per level, on top of a d12 hit die and other con-based class features.

That's another thing: defenses are nice, but a class should have active things it does. Maybe they get a smite powered by hit points. Maybe they burn hp for extra actions. Or something. But they need active abilities too.

[Primal Fury]

I really should have been more descriptive. :smallredface: What I mean is the class will rely more on hit points than anything else, even though they still have AC and other saves. Poison will be their weapon of choice. Essentially, every battle with them will be a battle of attrition. You're wailing on them with everything you've got, while they're just standing there, taking it, and watching you die.

[Qwertystop]

Hmm... Well, one suggestion is to give them access to other forms of Toughness as bonus feats. Somehow.

I'd like to see it when you post it - link it here?

[Network]

May I suggest you get a look at my homebrewed feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=290662)? The bloodletting feats are probably something you'd like to use in your class. Feel free to make more and repost the ones I made, as long as I get a mention.

I am currently working on a class that will rely solely on physical toughness (hit points) to survive in combat. I understand that save or suck effects will be a problem, which is why they will eventually become functionaly immune to them, by way of an Evasion-style ability for Fortitude saves. My only question now is: What is a reasonable amount of bonus hit points to give without it being overpowered or horribly weak?
Mettle as a class feature should do the job for the Fortitude thing. A reasonable amount of bonus hit points would probably be a minimum of +3 hit points at every level, per way of the Toughness feat (and, at some levels, they may get Dragon's, Dwarf's, Giant's or Improved Toughness instead).

[Primal Fury]

Hmm... Well, one suggestion is to give them access to other forms of Toughness as bonus feats. Somehow.

I'd like to see it when you post it - link it here?

I did that, and may have gone a bit overboard in the process. I gave them Toughness, Endurance, Diehard and Great Fortitude as bonus feats... at level one. I will probably scale that back a bit though. I want these guys to be really, REALLY tough.

And of course I will link it here. :smallsmile:

[NichG]

I feel like you have to watch out for dips into the class for this idea. I mean, in principle the bonus hitpoints are being balanced against lacking some other defense or abilities that another class would use to survive, and if you want someone who can stand there and take it in D&D, its going to have to have a lot of bonus hitpoints (at least a couple hundred by Lv20). At the same time though, someone could take most of their levels in another class but grab one level of this thing for a nice hitpoint boost.

I'd probably make the progression slightly nonlinear to counteract that effect. Like, the each level the class grants bonus hp equal to the number of levels you have in the class, so the first level is just +1hp but the last level is +20hp (which is 210 bonus hp total over the full class progression).

[Primal Fury]

I feel like you have to watch out for dips into the class for this idea.
I'm not worried about that. While that may be a lot of feats, anyone who only took a single level would be missing out on quite a bit.



I'd probably make the progression slightly nonlinear to counteract that effect. Like, the each level the class grants bonus hp equal to the number of levels you have in the class, so the first level is just +1hp but the last level is +20hp (which is 210 bonus hp total over the full class progression).
And thanks for this by the way. I had something, but was only coming up with 80 hp; this is much better.

[Realms of Chaos]

Posting from my phone will make this take far longer than it should but I've got ideas for you, gosh-darnit.

1. First of all, I see no natural relation between poison and toughness so how do you intend to flavor it?
2. How does this guy get poison? Poison is "evil", illegal, and expensive to boot. If this guy has to spend a few hundred hp for each kobold you want to kill, you have a bit of a problem.
3. A battle of attrition might not always be fun to play, especially as it would be one on both sides. You can just stand there taking attacks but you still need your opponent to be hit and fail a save so an opponent with high fort could simply outlast your finite supply of poison. Also, imagine how long it would take this guy to get through even a routine battle in pbp.
4. Battles of attrition don't really exist in 90% of games. As most encounters end in around 5 rounds, it's unlikely that your opponents will see the full effects of even one dose of poison. To get the desired effect of having opponents die while desperately trying to kill you, this thing would ONLY be usable in solo-campaigns, which hurts the usability.
5. To state the obvious, battles of attrition can't exist too effectively at low levels where even +5 hp leaves you a couple lucky rolls from flat-out being slaughtered by an Orc with an axe.

And now for the suggestions
-despite going for a tough guy that uses hp, actually giving bonus hp may not be the best approach a it can make you utterly invincible in early encounters and utterly useless in later encounters. Instead, perhaps consider giving this guy 5 temp hp/level at the start of each encounter so it can still be the tough guy no matter how many battles you have already faced.
-because poison contains a good many issues with its use in general, it might be easier to leave this guy purely martial, starting "battles of attrition" through inexorable strikes, gaining cumulative attack and dammage bonuses with each strike up to a set cap. That way, this guy could fill the traditional role of fighter and still do the job you envisioned without tying itself to a limited commodity of poison.
-instead of mettle or evasion, you might want to incorporate hp more directly, letting you succeed on a failed save by taking damage equal to the amount you failed by (or twice that much). Simarly, paying hp for other defensive abilities lets you deal with other threats while keeping the class hp centric.

[Network]

I'm just throwing an idea, but I think fast healing would be a good mid-level class feature. I personally think it would be better than temporary hit points, but you are the final decider.

Talking about fast healing, the class may also get barbarian-like damage reduction.

[Primal Fury]

1. First of all, I see no natural relation between poison and toughness so how do you intend to flavor it?
2. How does this guy get poison? Poison is "evil", illegal, and expensive to boot. If this guy has to spend a few hundred hp for each kobold you want to kill, you have a bit of a problem.
These points really hit home. I've been worrying that I'm giving this class too much, which is why I'll take anything to do with poison out.