PF - Soulbolt Wisdom Wonders?

[Chained Birds]

I'm working towards a Soulbolt that can do massive early damage using Intuitive Shot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/intuitive-shot-psionic), along with the Blade Skill: Focused Offense.

But I'm curious if Focused Offense actually works for Soulbolts (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/soulbolt); or at least the close range one?


Focused Offense

As long as the soulknife maintains psionic focus, she adds her Wisdom modifier to her attack and damage rolls instead of her Strength modifier.


Soulbolt

...and the short range bolt form is the largest and heaviest form and deals 1d10 points of damage with a 20 ft. range increment. A soulbolt adds her Strength modifier to damage rolls when using the mind bolt in the short range form.

So, does this work and will I not only get x2 Wisdom Mod of damage on a single Ranged attack by level 2, but also use my Wisdom for the Attack (This one I'm not too certain of)?

[Need_A_Life]

Why would you be getting Wis to attack? :smallconfused:

[Chained Birds]

Why would you be getting Wis to attack? :smallconfused:

Focused Offense says damage and attack; though I'm confused whether I get the attack benefit and the damage benefit, or I just get the damage benefit, or I get no benefit at all seeing as Strength only comes into play when determining damage and not attack with short range Mind Bolt?

Although, seeing as the skill was not excluded, I can't help but feel it was intended to work with the archetype in some way... Or something...

[StreamOfTheSky]

It seems to work like that. I just built a cohort using Soulbolt with that. I would agree, you need the close ranged version to get the wis to damage, wince focused offense replaces str to damage w/ wis to damage, and the other versions don't get str to damage.

So you're well off picking up Enhanced Range blade skill and the distance weapon property to give yourself sufficient range. And Close-Range Expert for when the enemies are a little too close.

I'm not sure Intuitive Shot is worth it; I'd just build around full attacking, as I would with any archer.

Focused Defense seemed interesting, too. The attack penalty for fighting defensively would hurt, but as far as I can tell, the wis to AC stacks with the normal +3 (3 ranks in Acrobatics) AC bonus, so my character for example can pull a +11 AC for -4 to hit...not bad at all.

[Chained Birds]

It is a character for a PBP, so expecting the character to go any higher than level 2 may be a little optimistic. So I just wanted to make a great damage dealer at this level, which seems like it worked out.

If the game was a higher level, I probably wouldn't really use Intuitive Strike and just get Deadly Aim instead (Which is still on my "to get list" around level 5). Though the x2 Wisdom Mod thing seemed too nifty to pass up. :smallsmile:

Currently doing 1d10+11 on a Standard Action, with a range of 20ft, at +7 attack (or +6 if I don't use Wisdom for the Attack). That seems pretty nifty for a Lvl 2 IMO.

Was even thinking of getting a dip into Marksman for Wind Reader so I can add my Wisdom Mod to my Ranged Attacks 4/day. Though I'm hesitant to Multi-class at all...

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Anyways, do I also use Wisdom for the attack as well (Due to Focused Offense)? Or is it just the damage?

I'm leaning to just Damage, but I really am not certain. :smallfrown:

[Psyren]

Mind Daggers to the rescue:


Mind Daggers: If a soulbolt selects the Mind Daggers blade skill, she gains the option to form her mind bolt into dagger form, dealing 1d4 points of damage, with a critical threat range of 19-20, a critical multiplier of x2, and a range increment of 30 ft. When making ranged attacks with the mind bolt in dagger form, a soulbolt adds her Strength modifier to damage rolls. When forming her mind bolt into dagger form, the soulbolt may either make a single mind bolt or a pair of mind bolts, so long as both are in dagger form. The mind bolt suffers the standard penalty for forming two items.

Basically, take the Mind Daggers bladeskill on your Soulbolt, and now you get Str to damage (which FO can replace with Wis to damage) without needing a short-range bolt or two hands.

[Keneth]

Just to throw a bolt into your gears; As far RAW is concerned, you can only receive an ability bonus to any particular value once. So if you receive Wis bonus to damage from two sources, it only applies once. The very odd exception to this rule is if the bonus from an ability is received as a different bonus type, which I believe I've only seen once.

[StreamOfTheSky]

You get wis to attack and damage. That's what FO does...


Just to throw a bolt into your gears; As far RAW is concerned, you can only receive an ability bonus to any particular value once.

Could you cite this rule, please? Multiple official paizo rules fall apart if that is true, such as targeted bomb admixture extract, where you give up splash on bombs in order to deal int to damage...again.

[Chained Birds]

Basically, take the Mind Daggers bladeskill on your Soulbolt, and now you get Str to damage (which FO can replace with Wis to damage) without needing a short-range bolt or two hands.

Hmm, isn't that just 10ft more than short range and trading a d10 for a d4? Could I also use the dagger for Melee purposes too?

I'm really not seeing the benefits sadly...

[StreamOfTheSky]

Hmm, isn't that just 10ft more than short range and trading a d10 for a d4? Could I also use the dagger for Melee purposes too?

I'm really not seeing the benefits sadly...

You're correct, and I agree. You're trading 1d10 for 1d4 for just another 10 ft range increment, basically. Mind Daggers do two things other than that, both of little to no appeal to you most likely.

1. Not needing two hands. ...Big deal. Soulbolt even explicitly lets you use a buckler with any version of it. Once you get to level 5 and can free draw, it's entirely pointless.

2. Being able to TWF. Which would stack with Rapid Shot. This can be appealing, but IMO the feat costs, lowered to hit, and reduced enhancement bonus (unless you spend a blade skill tax to fix that) make it just not worth it. I'm sure at higher levels it is optimal, though.

[Psyren]

Hmm, isn't that just 10ft more than short range and trading a d10 for a d4? Could I also use the dagger for Melee purposes too?

1) Yes, you can melee with the dagger (I left that part out of the cite because it wasn't relevant to your question.) Ranged-only abilities like Distance deactivate when you do this, but you still get Wis to attack and damage with them.

2) As you no doubt know from 3.5 (or should know, anyway), the actual die of a weapon is the least source of the damage it does. Iteratives and stat modifiers are far more important.

3) That's a range increment, not a range. You can throw it further than that, up to 5x (or 150 ft.) since its thrown. You will simply take penalties to attack for doing so. But your short range bolt has a 10ft. increment, meaning you every 10ft. beyond the first you take penalties, and furthermore you can't go above 50ft.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Or he could spend the blade skill on Enhanced Range instead of Mind Daggers and have a 40 ft increment instead of 30 ft. And the d10 (which, if he were to get Gravity Bow via a wand, would suddenly be quite a noticeable difference from a d4).

I would agree MD are great if they were a free bonus option. But they have a cost. And the cost is not worth it.

[Psyren]

Or he could spend the blade skill on Enhanced Range instead of Mind Daggers and have a 40 ft increment instead of 30 ft.

20ft. actually (without MD, he has to use the short-range form to get Str, and therefore Wis, to attack and damage via FO.)

I don't see the rationale for it not being worth it. Plenty of builds use multiple feats and dips to become SAD, and this doesn't even need dips.

Okay, so I did flub the math on that one, thinking the short-ranger was 10ft. I mixed it up with 2H-throw. Yeah, enhanced range will indeed get you to 40ft.

[Chained Birds]

Aren't Short Range Mind Bolts 20ft range increments, so a max of 100ft at full penalties? Or did I miss something?


range increment, and the short range bolt form is the largest and heaviest form and deals 1d10 points of damage with a 20 ft. range increment.

Edit: Do I really need to be so far away (kind of need to be within 30ft to even use Intuitive Shot).

[Psyren]

See my edit above. I will add though that Mind Daggers gets you the ability to melee without provoking or needing Close-Range Expert. So it does actually save you a bladeskill even though the damage is lower.

Tradeoffs! Good design!

[Novawurmson]

I actually asked on the DSP forum about this before. The response was (as far as I can recall): If you'd normally use Str (i.e. for the "short range" soul bolt), then you replace the Str with Wis, but not for the attack roll (which would go off Dex as normal).

Found it (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewtopic/t=1723/).

[StreamOfTheSky]

I actually asked on the DSP forum about this before. The response was (as far as I can recall): If you'd normally use Str (i.e. for the "short range" soul bolt), then you replace the Str with Wis, but not for the attack roll (which would go off Dex as normal).

Found it (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewtopic/t=1723/).

The response looked quite mixed to me.

And your claim makes no sense. If it were a mindBLADE, doing melee, wisdom would be used for attack. But because it's a mindBOLT doing ranged, wisdom is not used for attack?

FO lets you use Wis for attack *and* damage. That's what it says. You can argue about whether there's no stat normally affecting the roll (ie, medium and long range mindbolt damage rolls) that it does not add wis to damage (and that's how I see it), but that's the only thing really up for dispute...

[Chained Birds]

I actually asked on the DSP forum about this before. The response was (as far as I can recall): If you'd normally use Str (i.e. for the "short range" soul bolt), then you replace the Str with Wis, but not for the attack roll (which would go off Dex as normal).

Found it (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewtopic/t=1723/).

Thanks.

Good thing my Dexterity is my second highest score so I'm hitting at a +6 instead of a +7.

Edit: It still could be interpreted in the favor of mono-stat Wisdom, but having high Dex and Wis isn't that hard to pull off (with Con as 3rd).

[Psyren]

Agreed with Stream. By RAW, Focused Offense works with both the bolt and blade, and by RAW, it makes you Wis-SAD.

Note that questions asked on the forums have confused Jeremy with their wording before; if he feels particularly strongly about a given rule's intent he'll issue errata.

[Dark.Revenant]

Prestige into Soul Archer to get a massive range boost and a free hand and the ability to use the Manyshot feat. Emulate Ranged Weapon can also work but you don't get some of the bells and whistles that Soul Archer grants.

[Keneth]

Could you cite this rule, please? Multiple official paizo rules fall apart if that is true, such as targeted bomb admixture extract, where you give up splash on bombs in order to deal int to damage...again.

Actually, targeted bomb admixture doesn't give you Int to damage twice. It explicitly gives you double your bonus to damage, which entirely different.


However, the bomb deals its base damage plus double your Intelligence modifier instead of just its base damage plus your Intelligence modifier.

While no actual FAQ or errata has been made on this topic yet, there have been a great deal of developer posts on the forums that clarify the issue. I may have been premature in calling it RAW since I thought I saw an FAQ on it way back. I guess that makes it more RAI than RAW, but when it comes to forum posts, that line is often blurred in Pathfinder anyway.

Here's a few posts from JJ on the issue of Agile Maneuvers/Weapon Finesse + Fury's Fall, which is the most common example of this kind of ability bonus stacking (and was easiest to find).

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=385?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#19247
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=386?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#19274
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=444?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#22160

[Psyren]

@ Keneth:

JJ is specifically referring to CMB checks in both quotes. It's not a general rule (if it can be even called one, since he's basically saying "this is how I would handle it") that can be applied to the much simpler situations of attack or damage.

He also quite plainly says "we rely on DMs to make adjustments like these in many cases" - which is as good as an admission that his proposal is not RAW, emphasis on the W.

[Keneth]

The first post in my edit is actually the one that's more general, since the other two are specifically on the issue of finesse + fury's fall.

Edit: The need for adjustment in his posts refers to the wording of Fury's Fall which leaves some room for rules nitpicking, not the way ability bonuses work.

[Psyren]

Ah, actually missed the first quote. Well, being Wis-SAD once is enough anyway.