Beguiler the Paladin?

[Gnome Alone]

I like the idea of playing a character who's a paladin that grew up as a street urchin. Usually it seems like anyone that wants to do the whole "rogue-ish paladin" thing (not that it's a garden-variety character conceptthough I do recall reading someone somewhere's idea that Frodo was kind of a paladin/rogue, which is an interesting way to represent him - but I digress, hence the spoiler tags) ends up doing something like "rogue 1/paladin 2" as a baseline set up. Indeed, such is proposed in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143396) here, which seems like a reasonable way to do it - but something that the famed helpful gentleman Person_Man said in the same thread piqued my interest, as a more radical and therefore more fun solution:

"There's also nothing stopping you from playing a Paladin 3 and saying that you grew up as an orphan criminal whatever, or play a Rogue 3 devoted to a Paladin code of ethics. Or you could play a re-fluffed Crusader, Swordsage, Beguiler, Factotum, Incarnate, or Psychic Rogue. Any of them would be a good option."

And I thought, now I love me the Beguiler class, and for a while now I've really wanted to play a paladin-type character (given that the vanilla 3.5 paladin kinda sucks and all) but I'm not sure how I could style a Beguiler properly to a simulate a convincing paladin - they are not exactly melee monsters; I've read people saying that Beguiler is like the worst possible base for a gish-type... But that's what the whole "refluffing" thing is for, right?

So I guess my question is, Playgroundhogs, how would you do it? Wear a white cloak, wave a rapier around like a prop, act hella honourable all the time and say that all the enchantments and illusions are granted to you by the cosmic forces of Good? Fun side note: depending on how "classes are metagame constructs*" you wanna go, this could either be supposed to be literally true, as in that is how the paladin call manifested to you and you are a paladin the same as someone using the bog-standard class, OR you could roll with it as the Beguiler just thinks this - their magic is intellect-based and inherent to them (spontaneous INT-based caster after all), but they attribute them to a grant from a higher power; this option strikes me as oddly satisfying in that it entails not a only a trickster tricking himself, but that self-deception being the fundamental trait by which his powers are derived. "Thus began the legend of St. Coyote..."Ever have a lot of trouble precisely phrasing what ye wanna say? :smallyuk:
Keep in mind I'm not asking "how my beguiler fight in melee?" (and I'm sure as butts not asking anyone to build a character for me) so much as I'm just fishing for thoughts on it being believable - I'm looking for ways to make it feel like a paladin. Of course, if that entails suggesting specific feats or whatnot, by all means, please thusly suggest. The most specific thing I've thought of so far is getting Maximize Spell for the Whelm line of spells and calling it "Smite Evil" or using it similarly.

*Unrelated idea: Plot Golems - the metagame constructs.:smallcool:

[Studoku]

How paladinesque do you need to be? If it's enough to adopt a holier than thou attitude, call yourself sir and use your mind control to compel evil to repents and fight for the forces of good and order, do that. That sounds awesome.

If you actually want to emulate a paladin's abilities, you'll have a problem with some of them. Specifically being competent in melee and lay on hands.

For the melee half, consider Abjurant Champion. It sounds like an odd choice for beguilers but you meet all the prereqs except the BAB with beguiler 1 thanks to rapier proficiency (martial weapon) and Undetectable Alignment (Abjuration spell). The abilities aren't amazing but you get full bab and caster levels.

[Larkas]

... Man, a Beguiler//Knight would be a blast to play under those constraints, if not synergistic at all.

A question: do you want to be competent in melee or are your spells good enough for you?

[Urpriest]

Beguilers actually get some pretty good mileage from being Good. Vow of Nonviolence is really sexy on a Beguiler, and Exalted Arcanist can add a few choice spells.

[Gnome Alone]

How paladinesque do you need to be? If it's enough to adopt a holier than thou attitude, call yourself sir and use your mind control to compel evil to repents and fight for the forces of good and order, do that. That sounds awesome.

If you actually want to emulate a paladin's abilities, you'll have a problem with some of them. Specifically being competent in melee and lay on hands.

For the melee half, consider Abjurant Champion. It sounds like an odd choice for beguilers but you meet all the prereqs except the BAB with beguiler 1 thanks to rapier proficiency (martial weapon) and Undetectable Alignment (Abjuration spell). The abilities aren't amazing but you get full bab and caster levels.

Huh, I probably wouldn't have thought of Abjurant Champion, that's hilarious considering how few abjurations they get. Also because emulating paladin abilities is not what I had in mind, it's way more the first: be holier-than-thou and call myself sir, that sounds like me cup o' tea.

I was kinda just wondering if that'd be enough, though, y'know? I mean, I couldn't really see doing that with a Commoner, I need to at least kind of look like a paladin while I'm mind-controlling evil.


... Man, a Beguiler//Knight would be a blast to play under those constraints, if not synergistic at all.

A question: do you want to be competent in melee or are your spells good enough for you?

The whole shebang probably would work a bit better in gestalt, I've long that Knight is a good other half of a gestalt, it being kinda lackluster on its own yet having a certain je ne se quois. I'm probably not likely to play any gestalt games soon, though...

To answer your question, spells are very much good enough for me, just trying to think of how to look competent in melee, so far cast some illusions of me looking like a better swordsman than I am is all I got.

[Talya]

To answer your question, spells are very much good enough for me, just trying to think of how to look competent in melee, so far cast some illusions of me looking like a better swordsman than I am is all I got.

Why just "look" competent when you can "be" competent?

Eldritch Knight - loses caster level with only full BAB in return, not really fond of it in general, Abjurant Champion is great. Swiftblade is spectacular, but you don't want to be in too long, you end up losing too many caster levels. Of course, most of those rely on having access to certain spells you may not have as a beguiler, so finding ways to add those spells to your spell lists is a good thing.

[Gnome Alone]

Cuz I figured look competent was the best I could hope for... But I probably will go Abjurant Champion at least; it's not like the Beguiler's class features are all that great.

[Larkas]

I was sure that Beguilers could cast Phantom Steed. If that was the case, it would be an awesome entry into Knight Phantom. :smallfrown:

[Studoku]

I was sure that Beguilers could cast Phantom Steed. If that was the case, it would be an awesome entry into Knight Phantom. :smallfrown:
Shadow Conjuration and a very lenient DM?

[Larkas]

Shadow Conjuration and a very lenient DM?

A very lenient DM. I'd rather let the Beguiler take the Warmage's Eclectic Learning than letting that fly as is. It's almost the same as saying that casting from an Eternal Wand qualifies. Not that it would break anything, mind you, it's just that that's pushing the rules a bit.

Edit: And not to sound too negative: I thought about that too. :smallbiggrin:

[ArqArturo]

I know three levels of lost caster class is too much, but Swashbuckler 3 gives you Insightful strike, that goes well with the Beguiler.

[Gnome Alone]

I know three levels of lost caster class is too much, but Swashbuckler 3 gives you Insightful strike, that goes well with the Beguiler.

See, I ain't one of them folks what cain't a'stand to lose caster levels ever, but in this case, I don't think it's really worth it - Insightful Strike is cool, but ultimately it's three levels to snag like 3, maybe 4 points of damager per attack. Chalk it up to another thing that'd be more worthwhile in gestalt, I suppose.

Actually, if I was gonna sink three levels in an entirely unrelated class on this character, I think I'd go Duskblade, and channel me some 3d6 "holy" electro-damage. "I got yer Smite Evil right here, pal."

[Flickerdart]

Beguiler-paladin lets you do something that a regular paladin should do but can't - fight with words. Instead of stabbing the bad guy in the face, you can convince him to release the hostages, back down, and turn himself in, or even start on the road to redemption. If you never need to draw a sword, then it doesn't matter if you suck as using it.

[ArqArturo]

See, I ain't one of them folks what cain't a'stand to lose caster levels ever, but in this case, I don't think it's really worth it - Insightful Strike is cool, but ultimately it's three levels to snag like 3, maybe 4 points of damager per attack. Chalk it up to another thing that'd be more worthwhile in gestalt, I suppose.

Actually, if I was gonna sink three levels in an entirely unrelated class on this character, I think I'd go Duskblade, and channel me some 3d6 "holy" electro-damage. "I got yer Smite Evil right here, pal."

Add Arcane Strike for "Divine Might" and we have amazing damage. Also, would Arcane Toughness be worth it?.


Beguiler-paladin lets you do something that a regular paladin should do but can't - fight with words. Instead of stabbing the bad guy in the face, you can convince him to release the hostages, back down, and turn himself in, or even start on the road to redemption. If you never need to draw a sword, then it doesn't matter if you suck as using it.

And why can't you do that as a vanilla pally? Maybe it's not the right question to ask, since we just had a big thread on why it's hard to play a paladin, but I think a paladin with enough Diplomacy can convince a guy to do just that.

[Flickerdart]

And why can't you do that as a vanilla pally? Maybe it's not the right question to ask, since we just had a big thread on why it's hard to play a paladin, but I think a paladin with enough Diplomacy can convince a guy to do just that.
There's a vast gap between the Diplomacy skill and the best that Enchantment and Illusion have to offer, especially when combined with great stealth abilities.

[Fable Wright]

My recommendation would be doing Unseen Seer with the Shadow Hands item to grant Assassin's Stance when you have Martial Study (Cloak of Deception). Flavor the Cloak of Deception as a blinding flash of light that dazzles anyone looking upon you, until you reappear, using Sneak Attack to strike evil down when it's shown its errors (the fear from not living a just life, the power of fully trusting another when flanking, the need to check every step you make when you've done wrong when struck from hiding, or its weakness in the face of the power of Good when you use Cloak of Deception) and using Arcane Strike as your Smite Evil of choice, as you have full caster progression (and on that note, the Militia feat at level 1 is a very good idea, to pick up proficiency with all martial weapons) and so a very good way to throw lots of d4s at people. Flavor the Divinations as Detect Evil (despite the fact that the array of Prying Eyes are combing the entire city for one specific form of evil, though potentially also following other, minor evildoers home for the Paladin to bust later) and pick up Commune, and you have a Beguiler/Unseen Seer with Shadow Hand maneuvers that is a force for all that is holy and just.

[Studoku]

And why can't you do that as a vanilla pally? Maybe it's not the right question to ask, since we just had a big thread on why it's hard to play a paladin, but I think a paladin with enough Diplomacy can convince a guy to do just that.
Paladins only get 2+int skill points and use every other attribute for something. They also need Ride to get use out of one of their class features and have to buy all the essential athletics/acrobatics/perception skills cross class. They really can't afford to keep diplomacy maxed, let alone sense motive.

Beguilers have 6+loads of int skills, can make charisma their second or third highest stat and can augment their diplomacy with illusions and enchantment.