Star Wars Rebellion Beta Announcement

[Hopeless]

Well they announced this yesterday and apparently next week they're releasing this as GenCon 2013...

You can stop covering up your told you so with coughing okay? (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite.asp?eidm=245&enmi=Star%20Wars:%20Age%20of%20Rebellion%20Beta)

May the force be with you...

[Alejandro]

Except this time, I will not be giving them $0.000000000000000000001 for the book at Gencon. :)

[Jerthanis]

Wait, what? Doesn't Edge of the Empire already take place in the Rebellion Vs. Galactic Empire era? What is the difference between this product and that product?

[Sith_Happens]

Wait, what? Doesn't Edge of the Empire already take place in the Rebellion Vs. Galactic Empire era? What is the difference between this product and that product?

It's sort of like the difference between setting books. Edge of the Empire is focused on underworld characters, while Age of Rebellion is focused on Rebel Alliance characters.

[Hopeless]

And hopefully Imperial characters since there are two sides to every story unless you're minbari then there's three!:smallsmile:

Personally if they do go Empire and Rebel Alliance it opens up new avenues for games, how do you fancy running an Imperial team who are actually fighting the darker side of the Alliance the ones even they won't admit to?

There's far more to the story of Star Wars than previously thought, well it would be if they entertain that notion!

[Drachasor]

It's a bit fuzzy to me.

Either they felt it would make more money to split up the character classes between books. Or they felt that having a smuggler, a rebel, and a jedi in the same party wasn't realistic.

Yeah...I have not been impressed with these products.

[neonchameleon]

Wait, what? Doesn't Edge of the Empire already take place in the Rebellion Vs. Galactic Empire era? What is the difference between this product and that product?

Edge of Empire is designed for Han, Chewie, and Luke at the start of Star Wars. It's almost impossible to e.g. pull the X-wing out of the swamp at Dagobah with the Force in Edge of Empire unless you've basically reached the end of the XP tables. And you start off with the party having one beaten up old ship, and everyone with 500 credits each (which isn't much given that a decent blaster pistol costs 300).

What it doesn't cope so well with is half the party in X-wings, wealth, prestige, and power. You aren't meant to take on AT-ATs and the tone is in many ways close to Firefly.

Or to put it another way it's a tier system.

Edit: And you can have a smuggler, a rebel, and a jedi in Edge of Empire. But look at how little Obi-Wan actually uses The Force in A New Hope. You have The Force at that sort of level of power. The rebel is either disconnected from the main rebellion or a rebel without a clue. Either way they don't have logistical support.

[Hopeless]

You know I wonder if Edge of the Empire was released intended to take advantage of Star Wars 1313 and the Underworld tv series that was talked about the last few years.

Maybe part of the problem is that when Disney cancelled or put out to bidder Star Wars 1313 they basically shot Fantasy Flight's plans so it hasn't come across half as well as they expected.

This year with Age of Rebellion maybe the new Star Wars Rebels animated series due out late next year was going to focus more interest in Fantasy Flight's second release on its star wars licence but...:smallfrown:

Maybe I'm assuming too much but it does feel a little odd that their first release was the underworld side of the star wars universe just as two other ideas were being unveiled... Star Wars 1313 specifically, if I was very cynical and suspicious I'd wonder why Disney decided to fold that game as well as put Star Wars Detours in hiatus when this would be the perfect time to advertise the return of the Star Wars franchise!

With the Clone Wars series ending and apparently next to no news on star wars barring a schematic of the ghost for the Star Wars Rebels series it doesn't feel like they're using their new acquisition properly...

[Alejandro]

It's pretty simple for me. They haven't shown me why I should quit using Saga. Until they do that, I don't need their books.

I did have a great time playtesting it, and I'll visit them again this Gencon. But their material is like 25% of the content you get in the main Saga gamebook alone, and costs just as much. No thanks.

[GungHo]

Star Wars 1313 specifically, if I was very cynical and suspicious I'd wonder why Disney decided to fold that game
Scuttlebut is that it was an absolute mess and that aside from the tech demo, the team assigned to the project were spinning their wheels.

[Stray]

Maybe I'm assuming too much but it does feel a little odd that their first release was the underworld side of the star wars universe just as two other ideas were being unveiled... Star Wars 1313 specifically, if I was very cynical and suspicious I'd wonder why Disney decided to fold that game as well as put Star Wars Detours in hiatus when this would be the perfect time to advertise the return of the Star Wars franchise!


One possible reason: Disney has some general idea what the new movies will be like and gritty shooter set in Coruscant underworld does not fit into this vision.
Other possible reason: LucasArts did not develop a good game in a loooong time and their game development division was a money sponge. Last Star Wars game not subcontracted to another studio was Republic Commando in 2005. It sucks for those people that got fired, but it's reasonable buisness decision.

Generally Star Wars franchise never went away, since there always were Star Wars products coming out. But if you mean return of the movie franchise, I think best advertisement will be in a form of a new movie, not in a bunch of niche products unrelated to the upcoming movies.

[Gamgee]

I felt disappointed at Edge of the Empire in the beta, then I seen their video and got some experience and was super excited, and then I played it in practice.

I feel it's an alright system. I think the hype of it being Star Wars is over riding any sort of critical thought. It's not "bad" and it's not "good" it's in this... generic zone of meh. I guess SAGA kind of spoiled me. In the end I feel Edge of the Empire is really clunky system since my players freaking hate having input into the game. I also already do the whole "describe their actions in cool ways thing" so the dice system seems pointless.

Then Lo and Behold out of the shadows Numenra appears. It does everything Edge of the Empire set out to do, but even simpler. I dare say it might even in some ways improve or best SAGA edition for some things. I feel downright embarrassed I bought into the hype. I mean a month or two back it looked awesome. Then I played it and it looked okay... then Numenera happened and it looks downright novice.

My players were so frustrated how we could just do everything Edge of the Empire does... in Saga.... the whole edition just seems so... redundant. We roleplayed our character so well we didn't need obligations, we had them naturally occurring. We don't need rules for that kind of stuff. I also hate how hard it's going to be converting between systems because this is FFG and you just know a ton of **** is going to happen to **** **** up.

When did simple convenience die out? My heart sunk into my gut when they announced Dark Heresy 2.0, I know right now they are lying when they say nothing else is getting a reboot. I wanted a centralized core rules that would enable more balanced play at various levels of power, but it seems that's not the case.

[Asmodai]

In the end I feel Edge of the Empire is really clunky system since my players freaking hate having input into the game.

How is this a behaviour that should be encouraged?

[neonchameleon]

To me it feels like a pretty average early 2000s system with some effective dice that are a watered down version of the WFRP 3e dice. Not that the WFRP dice are at all bad.

As for Edge of Empire vs Saga, everything I know of Saga says that it's the ideal system for The Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones, complete with the rampant jedi. Edge of Empire on the other hand feels more like A New Hope. And isn't a d20 game. Both reasons to prefer it.

[Alejandro]

To me it feels like a pretty average early 2000s system with some effective dice that are a watered down version of the WFRP 3e dice. Not that the WFRP dice are at all bad.

As for Edge of Empire vs Saga, everything I know of Saga says that it's the ideal system for The Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones, complete with the rampant jedi. Edge of Empire on the other hand feels more like A New Hope. And isn't a d20 game. Both reasons to prefer it.

True, but that is only because of GMs. The GM can simply not let players make Jedi characters, and said problem is solved.

[neonchameleon]

True, but that is only because of GMs. The GM can simply not let players make Jedi characters, and said problem is solved.

The problem there is that the only two good cases for Saga are no Jedi and all Jedi - Jedi are just overpowering otherwise.

[neonchameleon]

True, but that is only because of GMs. The GM can simply not let players make Jedi characters, and said problem is solved.

You mean that the GM needs to know that the system is broken and doesn't do what it says on the tin, and the system works effectively in binary (either all Jedi or none) if it works at all. There's a good reason to switch IMO.

[Hopeless]

There's one way to resolve that situation.

Maximum careers' allowed is three, the one your character starts with any two extra you select either at the start or during your career.

This means any player who wants a Jedi from Force and Destiny has to seriously focus on what career's their character has if they want them to pick one of those available when that book turns up a couple of years from now...

At least using the Fantasy Flight system you've finally got the answer as to how to keep a level playing field since the amount of points they need to sink into being a potent Jedi, any other character could overwhelm them at any point during their campaign, I guess they're the wizards from original dnd where at low level they're not considered good but at high level they become game breakers... if they survive that long of course.

Now it falls to the gm to remember that being a Jedi during the classic era is supposed to be tough and that means finding someone to teach your character or an artefact that should be nigh on impossible to find and not conveniently located when the Empire are also hunting these finds at the same time and even with the Rebel Alliance irritating them the Empire has the upper hand...

Now try running that properly!

[Gamgee]

How is this a behaviour that should be encouraged?

Well its preference. If they don't want to be describing their actions then I won't force them too. The ones that do add little flairs to how they show themselves fighting already do that, but only one player does and only plot related fights of major importance. It's just not their concern.

I'm not going to hate on any one or any group that likes it since everyone likes different things. Personally we feel it slows the game down.

Also I meant in the success vs failure system they don't like the input. I still let them choose how to react to situations, and if they suggest something that's plausible given the environment I'll let them know (shooting lights out, or knocking some pipes down). We just don't need dice to tell us when to do these things. It's sort of just organically grown itself into our methods through years of play.

Edit
I found killing Jedi in Saga remarkably easy. Same with the rest of our group, if anything we thought of them as really underpowered in many aspects.

[Drachasor]

SAGA Jedi require pretty good Rules Mastery to make effectively in my experience. If you do so, then they are very hard to kill and very effective while still being versatile. At least that's what my group found at levels below 10 (we didn't ever get higher than that).

That said, SAGA's biggest flaw is the skills system. It just isn't balanced compared to Attack and Defense, yet it interacts with them. This is probably where the biggest problems with Jedi originates. A quick and dirty fix might be to have skill rolls use Character Level + Ability Modifier when targeting a defense stat with perhaps a +1 or so bonus if you a trained and another +1 if you have skill focus. Though it would probably be best to get rid of the diminishing returns on Block and Deflect (and maybe roll them into one talent) if you did this, since a big reason why they have diminishing returns is the huge bonus you can have at low levels.

Overall I think the flaws in SAGA aren't too hard to address.

That said, I haven't seen anything about the new Star Wars game that looks all that great. The skill system seems pretty flawed -- it has the classic problem of someone being good at a skill still being able to fail at basic tasks a decent percentage of the time -- the problem with most dice pool systems. Some people like that, but I find it immersion-breaking when basic competency cannot be assured.

Obligation seems rather hamfisted and limited. I'd sooner grab Aspects from FATE and integrate them with Force Points. That handles a lot more character concepts with a lot more ease.

And I immensely dislike how they've split up character classes and concepts. Saying that A New Hope somehow doesn't count as having a Smuggler, Jedi, and Rebel in the some group is a cop-out. Kenobi uses force powers as they are needed. There's not a huge call for awesome force stunts overall, so you don't really see any (that and Sir Alec Guinness was rather old). And if Leia being cut off from Rebel resources (save in the beginning and the end) somehow means she isn't really a Rebel anymore, then that's a big problem in campaigns. Overall this just seems like a poor excuse for a cash grab.

[neonchameleon]

And I immensely dislike how they've split up character classes and concepts. Saying that A New Hope somehow doesn't count as having a Smuggler, Jedi, and Rebel in the some group is a cop-out. Kenobi uses force powers as they are needed. There's not a huge call for awesome force stunts overall, so you don't really see any (that and Sir Alec Guinness was rather old). And if Leia being cut off from Rebel resources (save in the beginning and the end) somehow means she isn't really a Rebel anymore, then that's a big problem in campaigns. Overall this just seems like a poor excuse for a cash grab.

Every single force stunt Obi-Wan does in A New Hope is represented in the rulebook. You can even (just) pull an X-Wing out of a Dagobah swamp using The Force (Silhouette 3 or 4, several rolls, two force dice). What you don't have is Attack of the Clones style Jedi who tapdance all over the plot and make it warp round them. And even in the original trilogy the more Luke became a Powerful Force Wielder the less he had to do with anyone else.

Leia is a Politico. She's still a rebel. Where's the problem?

The big thing that Edge of Empire is lacking is X-Wing vs TIE Fighter combat.

[Drachasor]

Every single force stunt Obi-Wan does in A New Hope is represented in the rulebook. You can even (just) pull an X-Wing out of a Dagobah swamp using The Force (Silhouette 3 or 4, several rolls, two force dice). What you don't have is Attack of the Clones style Jedi who tapdance all over the plot and make it warp round them. And even in the original trilogy the more Luke became a Powerful Force Wielder the less he had to do with anyone else.

Leia is a Politico. She's still a rebel. Where's the problem?

The big thing that Edge of Empire is lacking is X-Wing vs TIE Fighter combat.

Just because the powers Kenobi used in A New Hope are in the first book, doesn't mean you can represent Kenobi or another Jedi. There's a big difference between copying particular actions a character does in one movie and representing the whole character.

And yeah, Leia is a rebel. That's my point. Because you can't even make the basic Star Wars characters without buying multiple books because of how they've decided to split up classes.

Like I said, it is one of the problems with this new Star Wars RPG.

[neonchameleon]

Just because the powers Kenobi used in A New Hope are in the first book, doesn't mean you can represent Kenobi or another Jedi. There's a big difference between copying particular actions a character does in one movie and representing the whole character.

And yeah, Leia is a rebel. That's my point. Because you can't even make the basic Star Wars characters without buying multiple books because of how they've decided to split up classes.

Like I said, it is one of the problems with this new Star Wars RPG.

Leia is a rebel. This does not have to be a character class and I don't see what actual abilities she uses aren't in Edge of Empire. Or should Princess be a class in its own right too?

And whether you can represent Obi Wan Kenobi using Edge of Empire depends on what you take as your canon. Whether you take the Trilogy as a work in their own right (in which case you can) - or whether you want to include the Prequels and the Expanded Universe.

Now me, I think the prequels stink. I think Yoda's flying whirlwind impression is silly. I think Force Lightning was much, much cooler when only The Emperor had it. And I think the Mandalorean Fetishism is especially silly when you take into account that in practice Boba Fett never actually does anything useful on screen.

Further I find that the Star Wars EU is vastly inferior to the Star Wars Trilogy for a simple reason. At its core the Star Wars Trilogy is a story about hope and about things getting better. On the other hand in order to keep telling the same sort of stories as Star Wars the fundamental rule of the Star Wars EU is that things can never get better. There always must be something bigger and badder ****ing up and overrunning the place making the entire Star Wars universe into a crapsack universe rather than one in which the good guys ever get to win.

So that the Jedi are "only" as powerful as in the original trilogy (i.e. able to deflect blaster bolts, able to fly, able to control minds, able to lift X-wings with their own mind) and Edge of Empire goes by that and not the EU is, in my opinion, a feature and not a bug.

In order to be true to the original trilogy, Edge of Empire mechanically needs one more thing. X-wing and other space fighter combat. And probably also large scale fleet combat. As far as I'm concerned the Prequel and Expanded Universe Jedi belong alongside Jar-Jar Binks as far as the universe is concerned. And alongside Kender in terms of things I want in my Star Wars RPG.

[Crossblade]

A First Look Review was posted, for those interested:

http://gsa.thegamernation.org/2013/08/15/first-look-star-wars-age-of-rebellion/

Wanted to share it, because I enjoy seeing this board's shared interest.

[Drachasor]

Leia is a rebel. This does not have to be a character class and I don't see what actual abilities she uses aren't in Edge of Empire. Or should Princess be a class in its own right too?

And whether you can represent Obi Wan Kenobi using Edge of Empire depends on what you take as your canon. Whether you take the Trilogy as a work in their own right (in which case you can) - or whether you want to include the Prequels and the Expanded Universe.

You seem to be forgetting the Obligation mechanic, which Leia, Luke, the droids, and Kenobi don't have. It only really fits Han.

[Hopeless]

You seem to be forgetting the Obligation mechanic, which Leia, Luke, the droids, and Kenobi don't have. It only really fits Han.

Kenobi is wanted by the Empire especially Darth Vader as he's the Sith Lord's former Jedi Master and the man who left him for dead so he has to wear that suit to survive...
That alone should be a pretty big obligation.

Leia is in support of the Rebel Alliance and wanted by the Empire after her initial arrest and escape from captivity on the space station she was partly responsible for destroying.

Luke on the other hand is largely an unknown he's Wanted for the destruction of the Death Star and at this point has gained the interest of Darth Vader since as of the end of A New Hope he's only aware he's force sensitive.
Still Wanted by the Empire even if they haven't id'd him yet is bad enough!:smallwink:

So obligation...:smalleek:

How the heck do they avoid having a combined total beyond a 100 I don't know!

[Drachasor]

Kenobi is wanted by the Empire especially Darth Vader as he's the Sith Lord's former Jedi Master and the man who left him for dead so he has to wear that suit to survive...
That alone should be a pretty big obligation.

Leia is in support of the Rebel Alliance and wanted by the Empire after her initial arrest and escape from captivity on the space station she was partly responsible for destroying.

Luke on the other hand is largely an unknown he's Wanted for the destruction of the Death Star and at this point has gained the interest of Darth Vader since as of the end of A New Hope he's only aware he's force sensitive.
Still Wanted by the Empire even if they haven't id'd him yet is bad enough!:smallwink:

So obligation...:smalleek:

How the heck do they avoid having a combined total beyond a 100 I don't know!

Except Luke isn't wanted by the Empire for most of A New Hope, and Kenobi being wanted is rather unclear (as they don't know if he's alive or not). It's not really the same as someone who's actively engaged in society and has his picture and ID out there. Leia wasn't even wanted by the Empire for most of her time with the Rebellion by the time a New Hope comes along, that's more of a plot-related element of the adventure.

So it isn't like people are actively hunting Luke or Kenobi. And I don't think being part of the Rebellion is best represented by Obligation. This is undoubtedly why they are tossing the mechanic out for Rebel characters, and will undoubtedly be tossing it out for Jedi.

By their own admission, their first book isn't suited to actually playing a group of protagonists from any Star Wars book. You need multiple books for that.

[Hopeless]

Speaking of which have they live tested the new Beta yet like they did last year with the edge of the empire version?

[Asmodai]

Speaking of which have they live tested the new Beta yet like they did last year with the edge of the empire version?

This is a topic about the Beta which came otu this gencon. Again paper only and for $$.

[Hopeless]

But no one reporting on gameplay?

The podcast dealing with an early version of this Beta suggests there's some overlap since Bothan, Droids and Humans are part of the species available to play and the Slicer and Pilot being covered in both versions.

In addition to being able to select a freighter as the party's ship they could instead select a base and gain an apparent 2500 extra credits to start off with or a variety of other choices such as a land vehicle but until someone with an actual copy posts I'm taking this with caution.

However the GenCon video from yesterday courtesy of Fantasy Flight revealed a couple of new ships for their X-Wing game and if I ever get a game of this off the ground again hopefully with a copy of Age of Rebellion I'm seriously thinking of giving them a Corellian Corvette as a base!:smallamused:

[Asmodai]

The problem with their distribution method is that the book is only out in physical form and had to be bought at Gencon. That makes it rather hard for a lot of people to land their hands on it.

[Hopeless]

The problem with their distribution method is that the book is only out in physical form and had to be bought at Gencon. That makes it rather hard for a lot of people to land their hands on it.

Last year there was an audio podcast regarding the game play then Order 66 got a bit more serious on the matter as the first video was released on You tube.

That was a year ago, given the reaction from the announcement of Edge of the Empire I figured there be more... I don't know more interest perhaps someone actually on FFG's side releasing a video rather than leaving it up to Fiddleback to wet everyone's appetite for this new Beta...

Sorry but unless they've left it for today (Sunday) I can't help wondering why no one's reported live from GenCon save for an odd note on the FFG message board...

Still it is a good pic... (http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/88656-has-anyone-played-this-yet/)

[neonchameleon]

Except Luke isn't wanted by the Empire for most of A New Hope, and Kenobi being wanted is rather unclear (as they don't know if he's alive or not).

In Kenobi's case it's very clear. A massive bounty - but the DM rolls for the bounty and didn't hit Kenobi's. Next point?

[Hopeless]

So any updates from Gen Con?

[Alejandro]

I was at Gencon. Looked through the book. Put it back down and bought some of their cool X-wing ships for use as props in my Saga game instead. :)

I did notice fewer people lining up to buy this book, than were lined up to buy Edge of the Empire last year. I think people got the idea that they were being soaked for cash to playtest.

[Hopeless]

I was at Gencon. Looked through the book. Put it back down and bought some of their cool X-wing ships for use as props in my Saga game instead. :)

I did notice fewer people lining up to buy this book, than were lined up to buy Edge of the Empire last year. I think people got the idea that they were being soaked for cash to playtest.

Not surprised given how little information coming back about the Beta.

Glad to hear about the new ships they're releasing and seriously thinking of picking up the Kyle Katarn ship when its released hopefully end of this month.

Not interested in their star wars ship game, but would love it if they released more types of ships like the Z-95 Headhunter for example but at least I'll be definitely thinking about picking up the Corellian Corvette and the Gallofree transport.

[Hopeless]

So has anyone bought a copy of the Age of Rebellion Beta or better yet actually played it at Gencon?

[Alejandro]

I watched a group play for a while at the playtest tables, and saw the provided character sheets. It was basically just like Edge of the Empire, except swap in Duty for Obligation, and some more restrictions on what you can and can't have in terms of equipment, or that you have to be a member of the Alliance (the book is written such that it assumes no one will want to play Imperials, but you technically could with the rules, you'd just have to redo some of them.)

[Hopeless]

I watched a group play for a while at the playtest tables, and saw the provided character sheets. It was basically just like Edge of the Empire, except swap in Duty for Obligation, and some more restrictions on what you can and can't have in terms of equipment, or that you have to be a member of the Alliance (the book is written such that it assumes no one will want to play Imperials, but you technically could with the rules, you'd just have to redo some of them.)

I'd consider that a mistake hopefully the feedback might support that so they'll look into that avenue after all more than a couple of rebels originated within the Empire including Biggs Darklighter.

Thanks for the response I was beginning to wonder if anyone participated in a game at Gen Con even with that pic as evidence they were running AoR games.

[Alejandro]

Well, that isn't really what I meant. Any player can say 'here is the PC I made, he is a Rebel pilot that used to be an Imperial pilot.'

What I meant was, you can't play a team of Imperials smashing Rebels.

[Dogbert]

Reason #2 to split Star Wars books is to divide the game in tiers as per their Warhammer Model.

This reason makes perfect sense given how in terms of resources and agency a Tusken Rider is inferior to the Rogue Squadron in every way, just like non-Jedi are inferior to Jedi in every way, so they state from the start that people from different tiers belong to different games altogether. This is reasonable.

Now reason #1 of course, is money.