Tiamat and Rat Lied to the Dark One

[davidbofinger]

We know:

The Dark One got key parts of his information about the Snarl, Rifts, etc. from his allies, Tiamat and Rat.
Tiamat has a relationship with the IFCC, who wanted Girard's gate destroyed as part of a secret scheme.


On this basis "Tiamat and Rat lied to the Dark One" should be a real possibility. The next question, then is whether the Dark One's beliefs about the snarl &c are true.

Indicators:

Redcloak seems pretty loyal to his god so why deceive him?
Redcloak didn't seem surprised to see an ocean through the rift.
But maybe he didn't see it - he was kind of looking at its back from a distance?
Redcloak wanted to hang around, implying he wasn't worried Xykon would see something he shouldn't, implying this isn't a D1+RC vs. X secret.


What might Tiamat and Rat want? To let the snarl kill all the other gods, imprison it again and inherit the universe?

However it seems unlikely from a dramatic POV that a new divine villain would be introduced at this stage.

Where did Shojo get his information? Via a priest of the twelve gods?

I'm more confused now than I was when I started writing this. I think it shows.

[Vinsfeld]

Where did Shojo get his information? Via a priest of the twelve gods?

I always thought that Shojo got this information from Soon (indirectly). It's passed to the rulers of the Sapphire Guard.


As for Tiamat and Rat, we can only speculate, for now. But I think that the version in SoD and Shojo's version of the Snarl's story is wrong.

[Kish]

While everyone is speculating about the agendas of Tiamat and Rat, Loki is going to run off with the whole pie.

(In other words, the Dark One has three allies among the evil gods.)

I think it's more likely that Loki, Tiamat, Rat, and the Dark One have some plan involving the Gates that Redcloak doesn't know about, than that Loki, Tiamat, and Rat have some plan the Dark One doesn't know about.

[dps]

While everyone is speculating about the agendas of Tiamat and Rat, Loki is going to run off with the whole pie.

(In other words, the Dark One has three allies among the evil gods.)

I think it's more likely that Loki, Tiamat, Rat, and the Dark One have some plan involving the Gates that Redcloak doesn't know about, than that Loki, Tiamat, and Rat have some plan the Dark One doesn't know about.

That's an interesting idea.

Almost all of what we know of the Snarl, the rifts, and the gates, we know second-hand, but keep in mind that Xykon came into possession of Serini's dairy somehow, and the information in it clearly doesn't contradict what Redcloak has told him about the situation, nor what Redcloak knows that he hasn't told Xykon, and that what Redcloak believes about the whole mess also doesn't contradict what Shojo told Roy (as seen in the Crayons of Time). OTOH, what is seen within the rifts doesn't seem to match up with that info very well, so it seems that someone (maybe several someones) is either lying or simply doesn't know the truth.

[Scow2]

That's an interesting idea.

Almost all of what we know of the Snarl, the rifts, and the gates, we know second-hand, but keep in mind that Xykon came into possession of Serini's dairy somehow, and the information in it clearly doesn't contradict what Redcloak has told him about the situation, nor what Redcloak knows that he hasn't told Xykon, and that what Redcloak believes about the whole mess also doesn't contradict what Shojo told Roy (as seen in the Crayons of Time). OTOH, what is seen within the rifts doesn't seem to match up with that info very well, so it seems that someone (maybe several someones) is either lying or simply doesn't know the truth.Or the nature of the rifts and snarl has changed since the Order of the Scribble fought it. Perhaps the destruction of Dorukan's gate changed things.

[Ghost Nappa]

Or the nature of the rifts and snarl has changed since the Order of the Scribble fought it. Perhaps the destruction of Dorukan's gate changed things.

Or Soon's.

Or both.

[tomandtish]

We know:

The Dark One got key parts of his information about the Snarl, Rifts, etc. from his allies, Tiamat and Rat.
Tiamat has a relationship with the IFCC, who wanted Girard's gate destroyed as part of a secret scheme.



While I've always been saying that until recently everything we knew about the gates was second hand, let's be careful about reading too much into things.

Based on what we've seem in-comic, it is a stretch at the moment to say Tiamat has a relationship with them. What they had based on this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) comic was an exchange that appeared to be basically her being upset about the death of 25% of black dragons, and the IFCC agreeing to kill 5 good dragons for each dead black in recompense. They also appear to be misleading her with a "technical truth", that the plan is to destroy the gods of good (with the non-technical truth being that I suspect their plan involves destroying other gods as well).

In short, the only current relationship appears to be an offer of appeasement, and there's nothing to indicate they had any interaction at all prior to the incident.

Note: I'm not saying it's not a possibility. I'm just pointing out that there isn't anything in comic to support it. After all, if your neighbor whom you never spoke to suddenly killed 25% of your chickens, you'd want to have words with them as well.

[Bulldog Psion]

There are a lot of deep waters here that we haven't plumbed the depths of yet.

[Porthos]

We also don't know if the IFCC knew about the Gates before Sabine told them about their existence. In fact, the story implies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html) just the opposite (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html), though implication is all it is at the moment.

[factotum]

Tiamat has a relationship with the IFCC

The only relationship she's ever been shown to have with them is a hostile one, shortly after their machinations resulted in the deaths of a great number of her dragon worshippers. I think getting from "Knows they exist and can spot their handiwork" to "Is in league with as part of some massive secret plan" is a pretty wide logical canyon to cross, to be honest!

[David Argall]

We know:
Tiamat has a relationship with the IFCC, who wanted Girard's gate destroyed as part of a secret scheme.

Tiamat has a relationship, but only in the sense that you have one with a neighbor whose brats are trying to be a rock band at 2 am. We know of no other relationship, tho there is likely to be some.
Most likely Tiamat's previous opinion of the IFCC was bothersome pests who wanted her to do what she didn't want to do. Now she is screaming mad at them and expects them to "pay damages" [out of their hides if they can't pay in the hides of good dragons.]

[Giggling Ghast]

I would question the assumption that Redcloak saw anything in the Rift, as he was pretty far away from it. The Order of the Stick only saw an ocean because they were right next to the thing.

Anyway, I'm not sure there is any great godly conspiracy going on here.

:roy: No offense to your deity, Durkon, but we know that the gods have a blackout on information (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0697.html) regarding the Snarl and the rifts.

[Snails]

My bardic knowledge says it is unlikely that anything genuinely important to the main story will be difficult to understand without reading non-strip material.

That Redcloak and the Dark One are mistaken about something important is perfectly possible, if not darn likely. But that the real reason for RC misunderstanding cannot be that the Dark One deceived RC, but that is because Rat deceived the Dark One, and Loki is really pulling all the strings.

That there are secrets about the Snarlverse yet to be revealed is highly likely. Those secrets are probably not as yet divined by any of the gods relevant to the main story line.

Keep in mind that the mere fact the Snarl is slumbering for the moment has surely been noticed. But beings made of "divine stuff" are not going to want to find out if it is only because mortals smell insufficiently tasty...for the moment. A god peering through the rift or even a mere deva could very plausibly get those Snarl salivary glands lubricated.

Red Cloak and the IFCC are going to be the in comic "avatars" of the collective machinations of all the evil gods. Their agendas are not going to shift suddenly, except when reacting to the actions of protagonists. Bringing in another divine factor at this stage of the story would feel enormously awkward.

[Snails]

It does not actually matter if Redcloak saw something in the rift. His agenda is to give a powerful bargaining chip to the Dark One, such that a new order more fair to the goblins can be forged. Such a bargaining chip only has to be plausible to gain concessions. Whether the Snarl actually can be used as a useful weapon is not something that is in Redcloak's interest to see tested -- such an escalation is likely to provoke counterattacks that will result in the unmaking of his world.

Whether the Dark One sees things the same way is unclear.

[137beth]

It does not actually matter if Redcloak saw something in the rift. His agenda is to give a powerful bargaining chip to the Dark One, such that a new order more fair to the goblins can be forged. Such a bargaining chip only has to be plausible to gain concessions. Whether the Snarl actually can be used as a useful weapon is not something that is in Redcloak's interest to see tested -- such an escalation is likely to provoke counterattacks that will result in the unmaking of his world.

Whether the Dark One sees things the same way is unclear.

Although if the Dark One tries to move the rift to the outer planes, and the gods see "hey, there's no apparent snarl in this rift..." then the bargaining chip would be diminished...

[SoC175]

We know:
Tiamat has a relationship with the IFCC, who wanted Girard's gate destroyed as part of a secret scheme.
Why do you conclude that? Just because she made an angry phone call after these upstarts meddled with her worshippers? Propably any deity would have called them (or worse) after being responsible for a mass-slaying of their worshippers.

[Synesthesy]

Yeah, when you see that the most important thing of a story is not what it's supposed to be, there is something wrong somewhere.

A note about RC: our favourite goblin was the first NPC to see a gate, becouse in start of darkness he destroyed the forest's gate. So he should have seen throught it, shouldn't he?

Secondly, I think there is something strange about Azure City gate and Girard's. The difference between 'seeing a world within our world' (wich could be legittimate) and 'seeing an ocean' is big. Big enough to think there is something wrong.

However, if you read carefully the Sapphire Guard's Lore and the Secret Crimson Mantel Lore, there are little mistake here and there. First of all, the knowledge that (Roy said it) God have a blackout about the Snarl, but the Dark One (a god) asked about it the other god and some god (Tiamat, the Rat) answered him!

[Porthos]

Yeah, when you see that the most important thing of a story is not what it's supposed to be, there is something wrong somewhere.

A note about RC: our favourite goblin was the first NPC to see a gate, becouse in start of darkness he destroyed the forest's gate. So he should have seen throught it, shouldn't he?

Depends on whether or not oepning up to RiftWorld is a new thing or not.


However, if you read carefully the Sapphire Guard's Lore and the Secret Crimson Mantel Lore, there are little mistake here and there. First of all, the knowledge that (Roy said it) God have a blackout about the Snarl, but the Dark One (a god) asked about it the other god and some god (Tiamat, the Rat) answered him!

'Not telling mortals about the God Killing Abomination' is not the same as 'Not telling a possible ally amongst the Gods'.

It's even commented on when one of the Gods says, paraphrasing, "Maybe he should know about this."

[Slayer Lord]

Yeah, when you see that the most important thing of a story is not what it's supposed to be, there is something wrong somewhere.

A note about RC: our favourite goblin was the first NPC to see a gate, becouse in start of darkness he destroyed the forest's gate. So he should have seen throught it, shouldn't he?

Not necessarily. Lirian's gate was still intact around the rift, and from what we've seen of the other three gates that have been shown thus far you can't see anything through the rift while the gates are still in place. Otherwise Xykon and Redcloak would have realized something was up while trying to secure Dorukan's gate.


Secondly, I think there is something strange about Azure City gate and Girard's. The difference between 'seeing a world within our world' (wich could be legittimate) and 'seeing an ocean' is big. Big enough to think there is something wrong.
They could be looking at the Snarlverse from different perspectives.


However, if you read carefully the Sapphire Guard's Lore and the Secret Crimson Mantel Lore, there are little mistake here and there. First of all, the knowledge that (Roy said it) God have a blackout about the Snarl, but the Dark One (a god) asked about it the other god and some god (Tiamat, the Rat) answered him!
Probably because the Dark One is a fellow god. The blackout on information Roy was referring to probably only counts for mortals. Rat did say that the elven gods were told about the Snarl when they ascended.

[Sir_Leorik]

We know:

The Dark One got key parts of his information about the Snarl, Rifts, etc. from his allies, Tiamat and Rat.
Tiamat has a relationship with the IFCC, who wanted Girard's gate destroyed as part of a secret scheme.


The first statement is 100% correct, assuming Redcloak wasn't lying to Xykon, and that the information imparted to the Bearers of the Crimson Mantle by said mantle, is 100% accurate. Until I see anything that indicates otherwise, I believe that Redcloak only lied to Xykon about the parts Right-Eye called him out on. I also don't see any reason to believe that the Dark One is lying to Redcloak; he may be withholding info from Redcloak, but not he isn't outright lying to him.

As for Tiamat's relationship to the IFCC, she called to complain about 1/5 of the Black Dragons on the OotS's homeworld being killed because of V's actions. She apparently determined that they were responsible, and called Director Lee on the carpet. Director Lee managed to convince Tiamat that the Black Dragons' death were a necessary part of a secret scheme to bring down the gods of Good. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) Director Cedrik comments that what Lee said is "technically true". This implies that Tiamat has no idea what the IFCC Directors are up to.


On this basis "Tiamat and Rat lied to the Dark One" should be a real possibility.

It's possible, but it is not likely. Tiamat had no idea what the IFCC was doing, and she attacked Lee with all five of her breath weapon attacks during their phone call, before she calmed down.


The next question, then is whether the Dark One's beliefs about the snarl &c are true.

Indicators:

Redcloak seems pretty loyal to his god so why deceive him?
Redcloak didn't seem surprised to see an ocean through the rift.
But maybe he didn't see it - he was kind of looking at its back from a distance?
Redcloak wanted to hang around, implying he wasn't worried Xykon would see something he shouldn't, implying this isn't a D1+RC vs. X secret.



This is all WMG. Do you have any actual proof? As the Admiral said, "We need proof, not leads!" (Of course the Admiral was described as being "As clumsy as he is stupid!", but that was by someone with a strong connection to the Dark Side of the Force.)


What might Tiamat and Rat want?

To not tell the Dark One about the Snarl. He came to them, not the other way around. Tiamat flat out told the Dark One to leave the Rift alone, but Rat, sensing that the Dark One would ignore them, convinced her they needed to let him in on what happened to Zeus and the other Western gods.


To let the snarl kill all the other gods, imprison it again and inherit the universe?

All signs point to no.


However it seems unlikely from a dramatic POV that a new divine villain would be introduced at this stage.

More WMG. Have any proof at all? Could you at least launch a few probe droids or hire a bounty hunter or two? (But not Boba Fett; our budget's too tight for Boba Fett. I recommend his Mexican knock-off, Senor Jodo Kast (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jodo_Kast).)


Where did Shojo get his information? Via a priest of the twelve gods?

Shojo got the "secret lore of the Sapphire Guard" from his father, who got it directly from Soon. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html)


I'm more confused now than I was when I started writing this. I think it shows.

You said it, not me! :smallbiggrin: