The Price of Psionics [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

tyckspoon

2013-08-10, 10:50 AM

Ultimate Psionics is over 400 pages of psionic material for both GMs and players and was publicly playtested with players all over the world! This is the book you need for all things psionic!

It's a friggin' huge book, and the rest of the listing sounds like it's pretty content-dense. I can't deny that the hardcopy is expensive, but that probably *is* fair price for it.

Talya

2013-08-10, 11:00 AM

$20 for the PDF, then print it if you really want to kill a tree.

Psyren

2013-08-10, 11:01 AM

There's going to be a much cheaper PDF, not to mention the SRD which will be free. But yeah, as Tyck said, 400 color pages in a hardcover ain't cheap.

Ninjas, ninjas everywhere

Drachasor

2013-08-10, 11:05 AM

There's going to be a much cheaper PDF, not to mention the SRD which will be free. But yeah, as Tyck said, 400 color pages in a hardcover ain't cheap.

Ninjas, ninjas everywhere

Hmm, still rather expensive to me, even as a PDF.

I'd note some DMs, like my brother, insist on having at least one hard-copy of any book that is used. He even has an iPad! I really don't get him on this.

AmberVael

2013-08-10, 11:11 AM

It's a friggin' huge book, and the rest of the listing sounds like it's pretty content-dense. I can't deny that the hardcopy is expensive, but that probably *is* fair price for it.

Maybe. This is the kind of thing I was thinking too, but then I saw that the two books that comprise most of its content were about $25 each. Generally you'd expect compiled content- even with a bit of bonus content- to be about the same price or at most just a bit higher. If it cost $60 or something, that I could understand. Without some further explanation though, $80 seems surprisingly expensive.

Are their printed books usually softcover and black and white? That might make some sense.

Palanan

2013-08-10, 11:25 AM

Couple of comments here. First, to answer Agent451's question, go here (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20130710) and here (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20130805).

Big green guy, three eyes, can't miss him. Pretty much all of his expressions are appropriate here.

Also:

Originally Posted by tyckspoon
It's a friggin' huge book, and the rest of the listing sounds like it's pretty content-dense. I can't deny that the hardcopy is expensive, but that probably *is* fair price for it.

It's the fact that eighty dollars for a gaming book is considered a "fair price" that saddens me--as well as provoking quite a stir of other emotions. I seriously doubt that production costs account for all that much of it.

Pathfinder, it seems, has pushed hard at the upper envelope of what's considered an "affordable" gaming book, and other companies are taking heed.

Originally Posted by AmberVael
...but then I saw that the two books that comprise most of its content were about $25 each.

Bingo. And yet, they're charging nearly double that--and a lot of people think this is fair.

graargh.

Psyren

2013-08-10, 12:06 PM

Hmm, still rather expensive to me, even as a PDF.

I'd note some DMs, like my brother, insist on having at least one hard-copy of any book that is used. He even has an iPad! I really don't get him on this.

Then perhaps your brother (or even your entire gaming group) should pool resources with you if he is enforcing that rule.

Or print the cheaper versions (PDF/SRD) as Talya suggested; that's a hard copy.

Are their printed books usually softcover and black and white? That might make some sense.

1) There is brand new content unique to UP - new powers, new feats, new races, new archetypes, new rules even such as the rules to convert the entire system into "rune magic" that uses "mana" (for those DMs that don't like psionic flavor) and more besides. So it's not just taking PsU and PsE and smashing them together.

2) The art has been heavily overhauled. Wayne Reynolds is doing the cover for instance (he isn't cheap, you may have heard) and the interior art is also getting an upgrade. PsU was black-and-white, PsE was a mix of that and color, but UP will be full-color.

Here's an example of the art changes. Compare Rick Hershey's Blue Aegis on the cover of the Psionics Expanded serial pictured here:

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/images/744/95327.jpg

To the updated Blue Aegis by Joe Shawcross here:

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m633/PsyrenY/image-247124-full.jpg

All the art is getting this treatment, including the original black-and-white pieces that were in Psionics Unleashed. So yes, it's a lot more expensive than "Book A + Book B = Book AB."

Palanan

2013-08-10, 01:09 PM

Well, let me say first I have nothing but respect for Psyren, who combines a passion for the psionics system with the rare talent of not disparaging those who don't share it.

That said, I'm not convinced the buff-and-polish merits the projected price. Even with the revised artwork and additional material, much of this "new" book is really just a reprinting of two earlier publications, and I'm not sure there was all that much staff time invested in developing new content. I suspect the "new material" had already been developed for the earlier books, and not included at the time owing to limitations of space.

For a close comparison, there's the Rise of the Runelords omnibus edition (http://www.amazon.com/Pathfinder-Adventure-Path-Runelords-Anniversary/dp/1601254369/), which is a 420-page, full-color hardcover that reprints the entire Runelords AP. Like Ultimate Psionics, the omnibus version was also updated with new artwork, new maps, revised content, the works. I've seen it on the shelf and the production values are fantastic. Very much equivalent to Ultimate Psionics--and yet the price is $60. That's still borderline insane, but it's 25% cheaper, for something that's essentially the same mass and overall quality.

There's also the Pathfinder CRB itself, probably the largest single gaming book I've ever seen: a 576-page, lavishly full-color behemoth. There are some concerns about durability, at least for earlier printings, but the book is beautiful to page through. It's 27% larger than Ultimate Psionics, with equal or greater production values--and they're asking $50, which is 37% cheaper.

I think what's driving the price here is what the publishers expect their audience to be willing to pay...and it's sad they're expecting so much.

Eldan

2013-08-10, 01:14 PM

Well, now you know how we feel in Switzerland. Every DnD book I ever bought cost that much or more.

Psyren

2013-08-10, 01:22 PM

I appreciate the compliment.

However, comparing DSP - a small and until recently all-but-unknown publishing outfit - to the RPG powerhouse that is Paizo isn't exactly fair. Paizo has been in this business literally for decades, plenty of time to establish the kinds of business relationships and economies of scale that let it pump out more content for less. DSP has not. And Paizo has all kinds of ancillary businesses like miniatures, cards, and sanctioned events that let it absorb overhead from the book line and spread out their risk. DSP has no experience with any of that - recently for instance, they had a kickstarter for their miniatures line just so they could learn the business for the first time.

So simply saying "X book has Y pages and costs Z, this is a price point all products from every publisher everywhere should match" is unrealistic. DSP isn't out to gouge anyone, but if you truly feel that they are then speak with your wallet and don't buy the books. Complaining about it on an unrelated forum isn't going to change the reality of the situation.

Palanan

2013-08-10, 01:43 PM

You make some good points, and I'm not suggesting there's any particular malice on the part of DSP.

But those aren't the only economies in play. If I don't buy a copy, of this or a similar volume, it's not because it's any sort of protest vote; it's simply because I can't afford it. The fact that the company is a relative newcomer is well and good, but I can only make decisions from my own perspective, standing in front of the shelf.

And from that perspective, I lament the trajectory that the industry seems to be pursuing.

AmberVael

2013-08-10, 01:47 PM

1) There is brand new content unique to UP - new powers, new feats, new races, new archetypes, new rules even such as the rules to convert the entire system into "rune magic" that uses "mana" (for those DMs that don't like psionic flavor) and more besides. So it's not just taking PsU and PsE and smashing them together.

Still, the cost is about equal (a little more, actually) to three printed books at their normal cost. I'm willing to believe they have a good reason for the price being that high- I'm just not entirely sure where it is coming from. How much new content are they adding? Is the art really that expensive? Are they expecting few physical purchases, which makes it more difficult to profit? What exactly is going on?

I won't hold it against them, particularly since I find that PDF price much more affordable (in fact, for that amount of content that's pretty nice), but I would be very interested in a cost breakdown, and I really do wonder how many they're expecting to sell. It IS a rather daunting price.

2) The art has been heavily overhauled. Wayne Reynolds is doing the cover for instance (he isn't cheap, you may have heard) and the interior art is also getting an upgrade. PsU was black-and-white, PsE was a mix of that and color, but UP will be full-color.
War, huh? Gotta be honest, when I first got into D&D I used to laugh at his illustrations. The sheer number of them with ludicrous weapons and bared teeth made me giggle. He does make stuff I like, (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/moi_gallery/91026.jpg) but his style often displays rather amusing quirks. (http://image.blizzgame.ru/assets/GalleryPhoto/1/Strength-Of-Arms-By-Wayne-Reynolds.jpg)

erikun

2013-08-10, 01:54 PM

$80 isn't unheard of for that amount of content, although it is surprisingly high. I'm sure that being hardcover and in full color is a big factor in the price. The black and white version (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/Store/product/pid=111.html) is only $60, a much more reasonable alternative.

I'd also want to have a good idea of what's different between Ultimate Psionics and the Psionics Expanded/Psionics Unleashed books, as it looks like I can get both of the latter for around $45 through Amazon. I'm not quite clear on how up-to-date those books are, though.

Psyren

2013-08-10, 02:42 PM

And from that perspective, I lament the trajectory that the industry seems to be pursuing.

Then all I can do is offer my sympathy and point you once more to cheap PDFs and free SRD as alternatives.

If all you're doing is venting, you certainly have that right.

Still, the cost is about equal (a little more, actually) to three printed books at their normal cost. I'm willing to believe they have a good reason for the price being that high- I'm just not entirely sure where it is coming from. How much new content are they adding? Is the art really that expensive? Are they expecting few physical purchases, which makes it more difficult to profit? What exactly is going on?

Content and art would be the reasons I'm sure.

Asking here where Jeremy rarely looks is not very productive if you're serious about getting rationale.

Also, given that the UP kickstarter funded roughly 22x its requested amount, I don't think "expecting few physical sales and jacking up the price to compensate" was the consideration at play here.

War, huh? Gotta be honest, when I first got into D&D I used to laugh at his illustrations. The sheer number of them with ludicrous weapons and bared teeth made me giggle. He does make stuff I like, (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/moi_gallery/91026.jpg) but his style often displays rather amusing quirks. (http://image.blizzgame.ru/assets/GalleryPhoto/1/Strength-Of-Arms-By-Wayne-Reynolds.jpg)

Latter link seems broken, or at least it just leads to a picture of a URL or something.

Spuddles

2013-08-10, 06:13 PM

Couple of comments here. First, to answer Agent451's question, go here (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20130710) and here (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20130805).

Big green guy, three eyes, can't miss him. Pretty much all of his expressions are appropriate here.

Also:

It's the fact that eighty dollars for a gaming book is considered a "fair price" that saddens me--as well as provoking quite a stir of other emotions. I seriously doubt that production costs account for all that much of it.

Pathfinder, it seems, has pushed hard at the upper envelope of what's considered an "affordable" gaming book, and other companies are taking heed.

Bingo. And yet, they're charging nearly double that--and a lot of people think this is fair.

graargh.

Yes, because the only costs involved are production costs...:smallconfused:

Novawurmson

2013-08-10, 06:29 PM

Here's a pre-Kickstarter discussion (http://www.dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewtopic/t=1507/) of the prices of printing and shipping a hard-cover book.

AmberVael

2013-08-10, 06:56 PM

Here's a pre-Kickstarter discussion (http://www.dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewtopic/t=1507/) of the prices of printing and shipping a hard-cover book.

Oh, very good find. Thanks for that.

I also like how Jeremy repeatedly mentions expecting a lower number of physical sales. Vindication! :smalltongue:

In that case, this printed book would almost be more of a collector's edition piece, which would help explain the higher price (and the substantially lower price of the PDF).

Psyren

2013-08-10, 07:03 PM

I also like how Jeremy repeatedly mentions expecting a lower number of physical sales. Vindication! :smalltongue:

Here's a pre-Kickstarter discussion

You checked the date on that thread Nova linked you to, right? :smalltongue: None of that discussion has anything to do with pricing Ultimate Psionics (in its current form.) Your conclusion doesn't really follow.

Autopsibiofeeder

2013-08-10, 07:06 PM

Well, now you know how we feel in Switzerland. Every DnD book I ever bought cost that much or more.

:smallbiggrin:

Just imagine what this book is going to cost over here :smallwink:.

On a more serious note: I have not read the book, nor am I a PF player, but all I can say is that for 80 dollars it had better be a pretty good book. It strikes me as rather steep, no matter what.

EDIT: I just checked, just for checking's sake, that the Draconomicon I bought has a price tag of 40 dollars printed on the back. I paid 68 dollars (50 Euro's) for it, back then, in The Netherlands.

Palanan

2013-08-10, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by Novawurmson
Here's a pre-Kickstarter discussion of the prices of printing and shipping a hard-cover book.

Thanks for finding this. Looks like the very birth of Ultimate Psionics, right in that thread.

There are a number of people saying, almost verbatim, "I'll preorder no matter what it costs." And much mention of a collector's-edition approach.

Note also that Jeremy Smith originally mentions a rough price of $50, right in line with the Pathfinder CRB. I'd love to know the factors that went into the decision to notch it up another $30.

Originally Posted at DSP by Jeremy.Smith
Just to give you an idea of the kind of rates you'd be talking about for someone like Wayne Reynolds, I would expect in the range of $150 or more per piece based upon discussions I've had with different artists.

Interesting. Much less than I would've thought. I've dealt with wildlife artists who charged a great deal more.

Originally Posted by Eldan and Autopsibiofeeder
*awful European prices*

Well, I do feel for you guys.

If nothing else, it makes me all the more appreciative for the items I was able to pick up in Brazil, in particular the Cenário de Campanha Forgotten Realms (FRCS). That was a while ago, and the exchange rates were more in my favor then, but even so the local prices were on a par with the US cover price--or maybe a little less.

Still really expensive for a lot of Brazilians, though. :smallfrown:

AmberVael

2013-08-10, 07:39 PM

You checked the date on that thread Nova linked you to, right? :smalltongue: None of that discussion has anything to do with pricing Ultimate Psionics (in its current form.) Your conclusion doesn't really follow.

It's not a direct translation, no, but it gives you a sense of how Dreamscarred thinks of its target audience. Two years isn't so long that you can turn a few hundred expected book sales into thousands. The kickstarter kinda goes towards that evidence too- they really did raise a lot of money, but there were only about 500 backers- and a lot of those backers are going to be cut out of actually purchasing the book later on, as most of them got a version out of their reward tier.

With the kickstarter they've paid the necessary costs, but if they want to make a decent profit with remaining books, the book cost still needs to be kinda high.

Palanan: The extra $30 in price would be adding in a second book and color. He's talking about B&W Psionics Unleashed there, not color Psionics Ultimate.

Malroth

2013-08-10, 07:51 PM

Spuddles

2013-08-10, 07:58 PM

There are a number of people saying, almost verbatim, "I'll preorder no matter what it costs." And much mention of a collector's-edition approach.

Note also that Jeremy Smith originally mentions a rough price of $50, right in line with the Pathfinder CRB. I'd love to know the factors that went into the decision to notch it up another $30.

Looks like you answered your own question. :smallbiggrin:

AmberVael

2013-08-10, 08:13 PM

according to that post, they only get 1/3 the cost of the book and then have to pay for the printing, artists and shipping out of that 3rd before they see profits, what i'm wondering though if they're paying for the printer and the distribution who is gettitng the other 54 dollars?

Mostly the retailer, according to his cost breakdown. The wholesaler takes a fraction, but the retail stores are still buying at less than half price. (For Psionics Unleashed as an example, they purchase for about 43% of the cover price).

Looks like you answered your own question. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, I'll point this out again: That pricing is about Psionics Unleashed in black and white, not Psionics Ultimate. The markup in price is for additional content, color, and a second book. 30 dollars more, but for a lot of stuff.

Psyren

2013-08-10, 08:44 PM

Not just color, but higher quality art even. The Blue example I posted is actually the smallest upgrade. Those of us on the kick starter got plenty of sneak peeks into the new artwork and it is well worth the premium we paid. When you pick up this book, it will fit right in with Ultimate Magic and all the other 1st-party material on your shelf.

Novawurmson

2013-08-10, 08:49 PM

Also, I'm fairly certain that the color Ultimate Psionics is a limited thing - at least, they originally were a Kickstarter-exclusive thing, iirc., which they eventually opened up to non-Kickstarter people. I can't find anything to confirm it, as the Kickstarter was updated.

However, I would also just like to throw out there that the DSP guys have full time jobs - publishing is a hobby they do on the side, not a primary source of income.

Palanan

2013-08-11, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Novawurmson
...the DSP guys have full time jobs - publishing is a hobby they do on the side, not a primary source of income.

Well, not sure if "hobby" is quite the word I would use here. It looks like DSP has been in business for about seven years, highly praised by their devotees and generally well-received beyond. They seem to be expanding their line and forging new ground, especially with Path of War. I'd call that an extremely successful sideline, or maybe even a second career.

Originally Posted by Novawurmson
Also, I'm fairly certain that the color Ultimate Psionics is a limited thing....

This would fit with what AmberVael was saying about a collector's edition, which was also mentioned in the DSP thread. I don't see anything in the product description (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/Store/product/pid=112.html) about a limited run, but I'm just looking at that one page.

Best thing to do is just ask them what the full-color print run will be. That would clarify a lot of assumptions all around.