PC vs party

[onua1]

I have been DM-ing a group for a while now and my group has been begging me constantly to pit them against a level 20 character or pair of characters. I know how tough those guys are and I was wondering what level should a party of 4-5 be in order to even stand a chance?

They have a sorcerer, bard, cleric, ranger, and rouge.

I was thinking a castle throne room, against an semi-optimized spiked chain fighter. Mostly straight fighter so they would not get killed too easily. I knew a caster could wipe them out immediately so yeah i felt a melee fighter would be slightly easier.

[Norin]

Depends alot on how the party is built and played. Also what situation the fight happens in.

And let's not forget what kind of build the lvl 20 char(s) they are fighting has.

I think you need to share alot more info about this to get some good feedback.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Depends heavily on what class they're fighting. I'd say level 15 at least, more if it's a full caster, less if it's a Fighter.

[Leonardo]

According to the DMG, in 5% of encounters they should not stand a chance. If they are asking for more challenge, I say go for it.

[elonin]

The request from the party is vague. In theoretical terms if the level 20 opponents were optimized or played with poor tactical choices then anythings possible.

[Tvtyrant]

A level 20 character?

Sorcerer 6/Wildmage 3/Intiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/Wildmage 4.

Now it can immediate action block anything (wings of cover, veils, random deflector) and use Arcane Spellsurge to get off a couple spells a round. Hit them with control and debuff spells, block everything that comes your way.

[sleepyphoenixx]

A level 20 character?

Sorcerer 6/Wildmage 3/Intiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/Wildmage 4.

Now it can immediate action block anything (wings of cover, veils, random deflector) and use Arcane Spellsurge to get off a couple spells a round. Hit them with control and debuff spells, block everything that comes your way.

You're being very generous. A full caster can most likely wipe out the whole party with a single spell (and make sure he goes first, too) if they are more than 3-4 levels lower.

[onua1]

I was thinking a castle throne room, against an semi-optimized spiked chain fighter. Mostly straight fighter so they would not get killed too easily. I knew a caster could wipe them out immediately so yeah i felt a melee fighter would be slightly easier.

[Tvtyrant]

You're being very generous. A full caster can most likely wipe out the whole party with a single spell (and make sure he goes first, too) if they are more than 3-4 levels lower.

I wasn't planning on instant winning, I was planning on "showing them their place." Bonus points if the caster wins using primarily low level spells on their arcane fusion. Beating a party with Glitterdust, piles of low level summons and stinking clouds? Priceless.

[Admiral]

I was thinking a castle throne room, against an semi-optimized spiked chain fighter. Mostly straight fighter so they would not get killed too easily. I knew a caster could wipe them out immediately so yeah i felt a melee fighter would be slightly easier.

The problem with a fighter is that a single Hold Person spell (cleric/bard level 2, Sor/Wiz level 3) can freeze them. Even a level 20 fighter has just 6+Wis Will save- even in a favorable situation that's around a 50% chance of failure.

So if the wizard/sorcerer/bard/cleric can hold them this way, the party's fighters can go for coup de grace attacks. Obviously he'll eventually make his Will save, but the party probably has ways of taking care of him in the meantime. This isn't just about fighters vs other classes- having a full, balanced party against a single person is never good for the single person, since much of the power comes from balance.

If you still liked your L20 fighter idea, you could set up the build to avoid the spells your party has prepared (Iron Will, Steadfast Determination from PHBII to boost Will saves, for instance, or giving him magic items that grant spell resistance or saving throw bonuses). However, your party might view that as cheesy. It wouldn't be teaching the lesson "You guys think you're tough, but here's a real tough guy," it would be "You guys think you're tough, but here's a guy I designed to specially counter all of your abilities."

ETA: Incidentally, a high level fighter + a high level cleric together would be much tougher, as the cleric could resist Will saving spells, dispel those on the fighter, and lay down different kinds of attacks (for example, having a summoned creature attack). But that would certainly overwhelm your party until they're at a fairly high level.

[Menzath]

If you still liked your L20 fighter idea, you could set up the build to avoid the spells your party has prepared (Iron Will, Steadfast Determination from PHBII to boost Will saves, for instance, or giving him magic items that grant spell resistance or saving throw bonuses). However, your party might view that as cheesy. It wouldn't be teaching the lesson "You guys think you're tough, but here's a real tough guy," it would be "You guys think you're tough, but here's a guy I designed to specially counter all of your abilities."


I think that would be A hexblade and/or crusader with those feats. Mettle is boss with those.

But I think the dual ranger(No pets) would be a good fight to pit them up against.
they have buffs, freedom of Movement, Resist's and heals as well as being Highly combat oriented (One can back row archery, the other melee dual wield) Ref is their worst save but spells can make up for that, for the ranger get zen archery an dump str for better will save and spells.

Not crazy Op cause I mean your not doing animal companions or wild shape ACF, but played right still a big challenge.

[Fyermind]

Make your fighter a Fighter 6 / Crusader 14. That way you still get Mettle and a 9th level maneuver along with dungeoncrasher. My preference would be to put this something that's naturally large, so it can get knockback.

Alternatively Cleric 9 / Monk 1 / War Hulk 10 is a fun build. Righteous Might lets you qualify for War Hulk. DMM Persist Righteous Might, Divine Power, makes it very powerful without much in the way of gear so you don't end up giving them the wealth of a level 20 pc/npc when they win. Since it won't be all that much of a caster when they fight it, I'd call it a very tricky challenge (if it has backup of some skullcrusher ogres or the like) for a party of 4-5 level 15s. Frankly though spells at that level will probably end the fight before it begins.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

I would say have a whole bunch of characters, have a strong melee build, a wizard who focuses on counter magic, and some dozen or so guards a few levels below the party.

In the throne room have enchantments that effect the room.

Use tactics to the full advantage.