[Pathfinder-ish]Feats for an Abjurer?

[Grey Watcher]

So, I'm playing in an all-Wizard campaign. The gimmick is that we're each apprentices of a school if magic, and our masters all disappeared or were killed recently under Mysterious Circumstances (TM). I'm the Abjurer and I'm a little stymied on what feat to take. Among other houserules, we've got a custom feat schedule. I'm probably gonna hit level 3 next session (a week from now), and I'm wondering what feat to take. Sources are basically anything from the Pathfinder SRD, no metamagic feats, no item creation feats, no Spell Focus (abjuration) (since we get those on a separate schedule). My character is:

Human Abjurer (Lawful Good) (Evocation barred)
STR 8, DEX 10, CON 13, INT 18, WIS 16, CHA 9
I've already taken Combat Casting and Improved Initiative. My spellbook contains all 0 and 1st level spells except Evocation, [Evil], and [Chaotic] ones.

Some feats I'm already considering:
-Detect Expertise - Knowing our enemies definitely seems a little wise, though I've yet to figure out how often we'll be facing enemies with character classes vs monsters.
-Improved Counterspell - I don't really know how heavily I want to get into counterspelling per se, but this is definitely tempting.
-Scholar - not terribly sexy, but making knowledge checks has definitely saved us some headaches, as well as giving us a heads up on quests.
-Skill Focus (Spellcraft) - There's a whole houseruled set of item crafting rules, and Spellcraft plays a central role. Crafting is our main source of magic items, so it might be worth it to be extra good at Spellcraft.
-Spell Penetration - Again, without knowing how likely we are to hit Spell Resistant enemies, I can't begin to guess how useful this might be. Plus, is it really worth it for an Abjurer?
-Summon Good Monster - This one has possibilities, but thus far I haven't bothered to do much summoning.
-Uncanny Concentration - I haven't actually had to make a concentration check yet, but if it ever comes up, does it make sense to be as good at it as possible?

[Psyren]

Are you married to the idea of being a pure caster? Are your stats set in stone?

I ask because, if I were the abjuration specialist, I would consider gishing it up to be the party "tank" - using the Scrollmaster archetype and my protective buffs to be more effective at that role. I'd also move the 16 from Wis to Dex, and put the 10 in Str. When your dispels and other abjurations are not needed, you can take the front line and help block the more offensive wizards.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Dispel Synergy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dispel-synergy) is sort of ok...same basic save penalty an intimidate would've gotten you, but whatever. It's higher level, but Destructive Dispel (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/destructive-dispel) is pretty nasty, great for anyone with maxed out CL who planned to dispel a lot anyway.

Admittedly, neither of these are 3rd level feats.

Not sure what your "feat schedule" includes, but metamagic feats, crafting feats (especially Wondrous Items, available at 3rd level), and even Toughness are solid core stand-by choices.

Have you also considered Additional Traits? There are a lot of traits that are just plain better than half a feat each.

[Grey Watcher]

Are you married to the idea of being a pure caster? Are your stats set in stone?

I kinda am, for RP reasons. Plus I'm pretty sure that the rules forbid multi- and prestige classing. (This was sold to me as a Wizard campaign, so I knew what I was getting into in that regard.) And yes, the stats are set, we've already been through two sessions. :-)


I ask because, if I were the abjuration specialist, I would consider gishing it up to be the party "tank" - using the Scrollmaster archetype and my protective buffs to be more effective at that role. I'd also move the 16 from Wis to Dex, and put the 10 in Str. When your dispels and other abjurations are not needed, you can take the front line and help block the more offensive wizards.

Funny story. I think I'm actually among the squishiest (our Dwarven Transmuter and Half-Orc Evoker do pretty well in the melee department, and yet, I've not so much as skinned a knee. :smalltongue:


Dispel Synergy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dispel-synergy) is sort of ok...same basic save penalty an intimidate would've gotten you, but whatever. It's higher level, but Destructive Dispel (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/destructive-dispel) is pretty nasty, great for anyone with maxed out CL who planned to dispel a lot anyway.

Admittedly, neither of these are 3rd level feats.

These are actually pretty high on my list, once I qualify. :smallbiggrin:


Not sure what your "feat schedule" includes, but metamagic feats, crafting feats (especially Wondrous Items, available at 3rd level), and even Toughness are solid core stand-by choices.

Basically, I get a feat every level, and it rotates between prerequisite-free Item Creation Feats (woo hoo!), feats that cannot be either Item Creation or Metamagic, and Metamagic feats. Spell Focus (Abjuration) is a freebie at Level 3. Yes, it's a pretty high powered campaign.

I had kinda ruled out Toughness. We all got our raw Con score for starting HP, so we're a little ahead of standard Pathfinder rules on HP, but maybe I should give it another look?


Have you also considered Additional Traits? There are a lot of traits that are just plain better than half a feat each.

Additional traits as in alternate racial traits? Again, kinda stuck with what I got (default human), due to being two sessions in.

[Psyren]

I kinda am, for RP reasons. Plus I'm pretty sure that the rules forbid multi- and prestige classing. (This was sold to me as a Wizard campaign, so I knew what I was getting into in that regard.) And yes, the stats are set, we've already been through two sessions. :-)

Well, to be clear, you wouldn't have to multiclass or PrC - Scrollmaster is an archetype. But it's moot anyway. My only worry was that (a) you'd get bored with dispel/counter/buff/dispel all the time (abjuration has little else) and (b) you'd have nothing to do when there wasn't an enemy mage to fight. You can cast spells from other schools of course (I hope), if you don't mind breaking away from the theme occasionally that is.



Funny story. I think I'm actually among the squishiest (our Dwarven Transmuter and Half-Orc Evoker do pretty well in the melee department, and yet, I've not so much as skinned a knee. :smalltongue:

...The Evoker is better at melee? Huh.



These are actually pretty high on my list, once I qualify. :smallbiggrin:

Those are indeed great, but again, do nothing for you if there's nothing to dispel, or if a target is relying on magic items and you're targeting them for suppression.



I had kinda ruled out Toughness. We all got our raw Con score for starting HP, so we're a little ahead of standard Pathfinder rules on HP, but maybe I should give it another look?

PF Toughness is an improvement over 3.5 and goes well with your defensive focus and free non-wizard feats. You can never have too many HP.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Additional traits as in alternate racial traits? Again, kinda stuck with what I got (default human), due to being two sessions in.

Additional Traits as in the APG feat to pick another two traits (or simply pick two, if your game didn't give you two for free as part of the starting package) from the massive Pathfinder traits list (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits). Which is different from the "racial traits" human and such grant. Despite there being a traits category called Race Traits. Yeah, it's confusing. It's why I've been trying lately to refer to stuff like a dwarf's darkvision as a "racial feature," and hoping that catches on, to remove the confusion.

Now, most traits are awful. But, there are many very powerful ones. Off the top of my head, and useful to a wizard (or anyone) are...

Finding Haleen: Completely broken; bonus hp and skill point per level on top of normal favored class bonus.
Magical Lineage: Reduces the metamagic costs on one spell of your choice by -1, down to a +0 modifier.
Wayang Spellhunter (d20pfsrd calls it Metamagic Master): As Magical Lineage, but spell must be 3rd level or lower. You can take both! And even apply them to the same spell!
Focused Mind: +2 concentration. Note, unlike Combat Casting, this applies to ALL concentration checks.
Two-World Magic: Gain a 0-level spell from ANY other spell list and add it to your own.
Fate's Favored: Adds +1 to ANY luck bonuses you have. Best w/ Halfling or Half-Orc for racial +1 luck to saves, but still good for anyone. Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier is 5000 gp and gives +1 luck AC and protects from a crit 1/day; stone of good luck is +1 luck to saves, skills, and ability checks (init is a dex check); etc...
Student of Philosophy: Use Int instead of Cha for Bluff (except feinting) and Diplomacy (except Gather Info) using sheer cold, calculating logic to make your point.
Pragmatic Activator: Use Int instead of Cha for Use Magic Device (you can already use most magic devices as a Wizard, so maybe not as useful to you).
Defensive Strategist: You're not flatfooted at the start of an encounter. Aside from the AC boost, you also can't use immediate actions while flatfooted, iirc, so it helps there potentially, too.
Lessons of Chaldira (d20pfsrd calls it Second Chance): 1/day reroll any save. Invaluable!

I'm sure there's more good ones. Additional Traits gives you 2 traits, so as long as both are at least half as good as a feat, it's a good trade. Potentially worth far more than that. Note you can't take more than one from the same category... half the ones I listed are Magic Traits. :smallwink:

[Grey Watcher]

Well, to be clear, you wouldn't have to multiclass or PrC - Scrollmaster is an archetype. But it's moot anyway. My only worry was that (a) you'd get bored with dispel/counter/buff/dispel all the time (abjuration has little else) and (b) you'd have nothing to do when there wasn't an enemy mage to fight. You can cast spells from other schools of course (I hope), if you don't mind breaking away from the theme occasionally that is.

I've been doing pretty well so far. I forget whether I mentioned it or not, but memorized spells work like 4e encounter powers (except cantrips, which are at-will), so unless we end up in a single long fight, we'll never run out of spells (although I came close to doing just that last session, when he had to running-fight some orcs inside their own fortress).

I actually like throwing out buffs, as it synergizes well with the fluff background. (The character was bullied as a kid, but was helped by his big sister who grew up to be a Paladin, and the desire to be able to protect people like she does is what brought him into the study of abjurant magic.) Plus between spells like Corrosive Touch and Color Spray and the fact that I'm gonna grab Arcane Blast when it becomes available, I'm doing alright in the offense department.


...The Evoker is better at melee? Huh.

Yeah, the stat generation is a little restrictive, but I think it's fair given how generous the rest of the chargen/level-up system is. We had to roll stats in order.


Those are indeed great, but again, do nothing for you if there's nothing to dispel, or if a target is relying on magic items and you're targeting them for suppression.

PF Toughness is an improvement over 3.5 and goes well with your defensive focus and free non-wizard feats. You can never have too many HP.

Still not sold on Toughness, but not ruling it out. Must ponder..... :smallconfused:


Additional Traits as in the APG feat to pick another two traits (or simply pick two, if your game didn't give you two for free as part of the starting package) from the massive Pathfinder traits list (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits). Which is different from the "racial traits" human and such grant. Despite there being a traits category called Race Traits. Yeah, it's confusing. It's why I've been trying lately to refer to stuff like a dwarf's darkvision as a "racial feature," and hoping that catches on, to remove the confusion.

Now, most traits are awful. But, there are many very powerful ones. Off the top of my head, and useful to a wizard (or anyone) are...

Finding Haleen: Completely broken; bonus hp and skill point per level on top of normal favored class bonus.
Magical Lineage: Reduces the metamagic costs on one spell of your choice by -1, down to a +0 modifier.
Wayang Spellhunter (d20pfsrd calls it Metamagic Master): As Magical Lineage, but spell must be 3rd level or lower. You can take both! And even apply them to the same spell!
Focused Mind: +2 concentration. Note, unlike Combat Casting, this applies to ALL concentration checks.
Two-World Magic: Gain a 0-level spell from ANY other spell list and add it to your own.
Fate's Favored: Adds +1 to ANY luck bonuses you have. Best w/ Halfling or Half-Orc for racial +1 luck to saves, but still good for anyone. Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier is 5000 gp and gives +1 luck AC and protects from a crit 1/day; stone of good luck is +1 luck to saves, skills, and ability checks (init is a dex check); etc...
Student of Philosophy: Use Int instead of Cha for Bluff (except feinting) and Diplomacy (except Gather Info) using sheer cold, calculating logic to make your point.
Pragmatic Activator: Use Int instead of Cha for Use Magic Device (you can already use most magic devices as a Wizard, so maybe not as useful to you).
Defensive Strategist: You're not flatfooted at the start of an encounter. Aside from the AC boost, you also can't use immediate actions while flatfooted, iirc, so it helps there potentially, too.
Lessons of Chaldira (d20pfsrd calls it Second Chance): 1/day reroll any save. Invaluable!

I'm sure there's more good ones. Additional Traits gives you 2 traits, so as long as both are at least half as good as a feat, it's a good trade. Potentially worth far more than that. Note you can't take more than one from the same category... half the ones I listed are Magic Traits. :smallwink:

Those are really neat! Student of Philosophy and Two-World Magic have the added bonus of fitting in nicely with my backstory. (Religious upbringing, very chummy with the town Cleric, the aforementioned big sister Paladin....) Thanks for letting me know about them!

[Grey Watcher]

So, an update and another question: The Additional Traits feat is out. (DM figures there are enough things for the more new-to-D&D/Pathfinder players to deal with without throwing traits into the mix.) In the meantime, the siren song of item crafting is too much, and I've decided to go with Skill Focus (Spellcraft) for level 3 and Uncanny Concentration penciled in for level 6.

Apparently part of the idea was for us to spend our non-item creation non-metamagic feats on non-magical feat trees, so getting better at archery or dodging or something. Problem is, with my sucky physical stats, none of them seem worthwhile. Even getting Endurance, Diehard, and Fast Healing hardly seem worth the effort compared to boosting my spellcasting or ability to create quality defensive gear to avoid getting hurt in the first place.

So other than Combat Casting and Uncanny Concentration, anyone have any suggestions for boosting Concentration? What about Spellcraft, beyond Skill Focus?

[Karoht]

If you are taking the Counterspell branch of the Abjuration school, you get Improved Counterspell for free at level 6, and you can use an Immediate Action to Counterspell, as opposed to a readied action. This can be used several times per day depending on level. Action economy = good.
You also gain a touch power, note that you can use the spell Spectral Hand to deliver touch attacks.

Parry Spell comes online when you have 15 ranks of spellcraft. It's prereq feat is Improved Counterspell. If you are not going to take the Counterspell branch of Abjuration, take this feat as it makes preventing spells easier and is a prereq for Parry Spell.

Someone else mentioned Dispel Synergy and Destructive Dispel. In my opinion, if you are going to dispel ongoing effects on one person, you might as well get something out of it. Also, even if the target makes the save on Destructive Dispel, they are still Sickened, which is a further debuff.
When you use Greater Dispel Magic on a single target, and it has multiple effects which you successfully remove, it is unclear if the target gets one save or has to make one for each effect removed. Check with your DM. If it is multiple times, chances are they will succeed the first, be sickened, and then have to make the saves at -4 penalty (2 from sickened, 2 from Dispel Synergy).
It is also unclear if the save penalty or stun chance triggers from using a Targeted Dispel on their attended items (does it count as a Targeted Dispel VS an Opponent?). Turning off their items AND debuffing AND a chance to stun? Sounds fun to me, but again, check with your DM.

I would also like to draw your attention to a certain item.
http://www.pathfindersrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/necromancer-s-athame
The flexibility this offers is most excellent. Now, yes, this says Necromancy. I'm very certain that there is a similar item which will work with Abjurations, and there is another one that you can change the spell school each day, but it has to be your bonded item. Have a look, it can be a very handy tool, especially if you were considering taking a bonded item rather than a familiar.

[Psyren]

When you use Greater Dispel Magic on a single target, and it has multiple effects which you successfully remove, it is unclear if the target gets one save or has to make one for each effect removed.

Even with GDM you only make one check - that one check is merely compared with multiple spells, and unlike DM, does not stop at the first success.

[Karoht]

Even with GDM you only make one check - that one check is merely compared with multiple spells, and unlike DM, does not stop at the first success.Right.
"When you successfully make a targeted dispel check against an opponent, that opponent must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC equals the DC of the spell used to dispel) or be stunned until the start of your next turn."

So lets say I GDM and there are 4 effects. I successfully dispel all 4. Would each effect being dispelled not be considered a success?

Also, relevant item.
http://www.pathfindersrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/headband-of-counterspelling
Does what the school power for the Counterspelling branch does. Bad news is that it is a headband slot, which will likely be taken up by something else.

[Reprimand]

I know this isn't completely related but you can get a turtle familiar from ultimate magic because it fits with your concept of defense (abjuration spec) before offense (evocation ban).

Plus, turtles are adorable.

[Vaz]

If 3.5 is Grandfathered in...

Iron Will. (Incantatrix).