Rolling up a Minotaur- Questions?

[shortnsweet456]

One of my players in our 3.5 game is trying to role up a minotaur based on the monster character rules from the 3.5 book savage species, where you take the race as class levels before you take levels in a normal class. In the case of some undead classes I've understood it to be that he has to got through the entirety of the 'race/class' in order to multiclass, and we're not sure if that is a requirement here, or if he can simply stop at level 4.

If he can stop at level 4, it brings up the issue of whether or not he can at some point go back and take more levels in the 'race/class' of minotaur. To me, this feels pretty broken a person could depending on how it worked, so I wanted to know if anyone knew the exact rules for these? I'm having a bit of trouble finding them.

Thanks, I really appreciate it :-)

[Galvin]

I'm not sure... just like a human can't put hit dice in humanoid, a minotaur might not be able to put hit dice in minotaur. A creature's hit dice measures it's power at adulthood. Thus, I would say, that a minotaur PC cannot put additional hit dice in the mounstrous humanoid template.

[Lord Vukodlak]

In the case of some undead classes I've understood it to be that he has to got through the entirety of the 'race/class'
I do believe that applies to all of them actually minotaur included.

[shortnsweet456]

I'm not sure... just like a human can't put hit dice in humanoid, a minotaur might not be able to put hit dice in minotaur. A creature's hit dice measures it's power at adulthood. Thus, I would say, that a minotaur PC cannot put additional hit dice in the mounstrous humanoid template.

Actually, it's a variant to do monster classes from the 3.5 book Savage species. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd%2Fex%2F20030202

[Galvin]

I do believe that applies to all of them actually minotaur included.

Indeed. As I said, he would have to have all 4 Hit Dice in Monstrous Humanoid template. That represents adulthood, so a young adult minotaur would have lower hit dice, and he would have to go all 4 Hit Dice before he could take PC class levels.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Indeed. As I said, he would have to have all 4 Hit Dice in Monstrous Humanoid template. That represents adulthood, so a young adult minotaur would have lower hit dice, and he would have to go all 4 Hit Dice before he could take PC class levels.
Minotaurs have six hit dice not four.

[Galvin]

Minotaurs have six hit dice not four.

Woops, my bad.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Woops, my bad.

You we're probably thinking of ogre's.

[Urpriest]

Yeah, you have to finish the monster class and can't take anything else until you do. The only exception to that are the Savage Progressions from the WotC website.

[shortnsweet456]

Yeah, you have to finish the monster class and can't take anything else until you do. The only exception to that are the Savage Progressions from the WotC website.

This is, I believe, the progession I am referring to. I linked it above, but it's here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd%2Fex%2F20030202

Does this mean they do not have to go the full amount? and if they stop, can they go back into it later?

[Galvin]

I think that you could go back, but I'm not positive.

[Lord Vukodlak]

This is, I believe, the progession I am referring to. I linked it above, but it's here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd%2Fex%2F20030202

Does this mean they do not have to go the full amount? and if they stop, can they go back into it later?
No you have to go the full amount the only exception to stopping are lycanthropes which makes the difference between afflicted and natural. I don't know where he's getting the idea the savage progressions are an exception.

[Galvin]

Woops. The alternate progression is only slightly better than just being a standard minotaur. A minotaur, with 6 HD and 4 LA, to the progression, with 8 levels, so the minotaur progression allows entrance into PC classes two levels earlier, though the progression does not give the full gore damage, nor the full STR bonuses, so I personally would favor just the normal minotaur, though it depends on the level of the campaign.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Woops. The alternate progression is only slightly better than just being a standard minotaur. A minotaur, with 6 HD and 4 LA, to the progression, with 8 levels, so the minotaur progression allows entrance into PC classes two levels earlier, though the progression does not give the full gore damage, nor the full STR bonuses, so I personally would favor just the normal minotaur, though it depends on the level of the campaign.

No it ends up exactly the same as a regular minotaur, the starting racial adjustments are +2 Str, +2 Dex, -4 Int, -2 Cha, after eight levels in the monster class they get another +6 Strength(for a total of eight) and +4 Con and a 1d8 gore just like a minotaur.

A Minotaur and ECL 8, the savage progression just breaks that down into class levels a PC can start playing the minotaur at level one.

[shortnsweet456]

The intention of my player was to only go 4 levels into minotaur, and then go into ranger for another 2 (as a level 6 character). My problem with this is that is doesn't seem to balance well, and from what I am understanding it is not supposed to be possible.

Are there any ways around it that would remain balanced?

[Runestar]

The intention of my player was to only go 4 levels into minotaur, and then go into ranger for another 2 (as a level 6 character). My problem with this is that is doesn't seem to balance well, and from what I am understanding it is not supposed to be possible.

Are there any ways around it that would remain balanced?

The intention here is to discourage players from cherry-picking monster HD early on. For example, if you look at the astral deva progression, they get 5 full outsider HD for the 1st 5 lvs. Without this rule, a cunning player could simply go Astral Deva 5 first (5 outsider HD), then take class lvs to avoid LA.

My suggestion is to just houserule it, but you have to keep an eye on the player's progression, and reach an understanding with him that he is expected to eventually complete the minotair's progression?

So maybe you could sit down with him and map out his progression - e.g.: He can take 2 class lvs every 2 racial HD or something. So long as he is not obviously more powerful than the other players at that point in the game, I don't see any issues.