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Fortuna
2013-08-10, 11:55 PM
So this is a thing that I've thought now and again, but since it's just managed to ruin another game for me I figure I might as well come here and rant/rage/whine about it.

Basically, I can't have fun while playing characters. Most often I build a character who's incompetent in general, and then I feel bad because I'm useless. Occasionally I manage to build a character who's good at something. You'd think that would make me feel better. But when I get a character who can actually do things, I feel bad every damn second that I'm in the spotlight and succeeding, 'coz I feel like I'm overshadowing the rest. The only characters I've ever really had fun playing have been in D&D 4e, where I played Defenders and Leaders and loved how I could set other people up to be in the spotlight. In short, I'm bad at that side of the DM screen.

'course, I'm bad at the other side too, but that's just 'cause I'm disorganized and stuff rather than any specific lack of facility with that task.

Iunno why I bothered typing this up, to be honest, but it's something I felt like I should put on the playground. Seemed like a good idea at the time. Has anyone else had an impression like this? What did you do about it?

Felhammer
2013-08-11, 12:04 AM
Declare that you are making a character that is good at three things before character building gets underway. Now everyone will build characters that are good in other areas of the game and you can feel free to be good at your three areas of expertise.

Fortuna
2013-08-11, 12:12 AM
It doesn't much matter whether my areas of competence overlap with others'. When I'm in them, I feel like I'm overshadowing.

zimmerwald1915
2013-08-11, 12:16 AM
The only characters I've ever really had fun playing have been in D&D 4e, where I played Defenders and Leaders and loved how I could set other people up to be in the spotlight.
I sense a solution...

Metahuman1
2013-08-11, 12:17 AM
Build support themed characters.

Characters who lock down enemy's, draw aggro/suck up the hits, heal people, make enemy's worse at what they do so others can finish them off, buff allies so there lot's better at what there doing, that kinda stuff.

Felhammer
2013-08-11, 12:24 AM
It doesn't much matter whether my areas of competence overlap with others'. When I'm in them, I feel like I'm overshadowing.

Have you asked any of the other players if they feel that way? :smallconfused:

Also, have you considered being a DM?

Anxe
2013-08-11, 12:30 AM
Get assertiveness training? Otherwise that support character thing sounds right.

Fortuna
2013-08-11, 12:32 AM
I sense a solution...

Yeah, 'cept in the circles I move in 4e D&D is practically a dirty word, and 4e doesn't really work well for playing by internet.


Build support themed characters.

Characters who lock down enemy's, draw aggro/suck up the hits, heal people, make enemy's worse at what they do so others can finish them off, buff allies so there lot's better at what there doing, that kinda stuff.

I've tried that, but I often get the same kind of feeling - either I'm not contributing enough, and I feel bad, or I'm contributing to the point where I'm overshadowing the person I'm supporting, and I feel bad. It's bloody impossible to strike the right balance.


Have you asked any of the other players if they feel that way? :smallconfused:

Also, have you considered being a DM?

No, the other players don't feel that way. This is all in my head. And yeah, I've tried DMing, but like I say, I'm disorganized and stuff, and it tends to fall apart.

Felhammer
2013-08-11, 12:35 AM
No, the other players don't feel that way. This is all in my head. And yeah, I've tried DMing, but like I say, I'm disorganized and stuff, and it tends to fall apart.

Then you just have to keep telling yourself that you aren't overshadowing anyone else. In fact, have the other players tell you if you happen to overshadow them. Then your mind can be at ease because the burden of detecting the overshadowing is taken off your shoulders.

You can be incredibly disorganized and still be a good DM. Beyond running modules, you can tape a piece of paper to your DM screen that reminds you of the plot and which monsters you want to use and where they are located. :smallsmile:

Big Fau
2013-08-11, 12:44 AM
Yeah, 'cept in the circles I move in 4e D&D is practically a dirty word, and 4e doesn't really work well for playing by internet.

If you are interested in playing a 3.5 buff-based character, play a Bard, Cleric, or Transmutation-focused Wizard.

Fortuna
2013-08-11, 12:46 AM
Me DMing tends to work fine in the midst of the session. I have a talent for the infinitely-prolonged collapse which somehow comes across as clever improvisation. It's outside the session, where I need to organize sessions or keep track of people or just keep enough time free to run the game, that the game tends to fall apart.

And honestly, I've tried that, I've taken every reasonable step, but it just doesn't matter that no one else feels overshadowed. In myself, I still feel like I'm taking play time that isn't mine to take.


If you are interested in playing a 3.5 buff-based character, play a Bard, Cleric, or Transmutation-focused Wizard.

Clerics and wizards tend to make me feel like the buffs are doing more of the pulling than the players. Bards tend to make me feel like I'm just not doing enough.

Beowulf DW
2013-08-11, 12:58 AM
I've tried that, but I often get the same kind of feeling - either I'm not contributing enough, and I feel bad, or I'm contributing to the point where I'm overshadowing the person I'm supporting, and I feel bad. It's bloody impossible to strike the right balance.

No, the other players don't feel that way. This is all in my head. And yeah, I've tried DMing, but like I say, I'm disorganized and stuff, and it tends to fall apart.

Support clerics could work pretty well for this in Pathfinder. Dedicate yourself to helping your friends kick butt, and stand side by side with them in battle. They're pretty easy to build, too.

As far as your concern about hogging the spotlight goes, well...I guess you're just going to have to try changing your way of thinking. If your character is suddenly in the spotlight, that's usually because circumstances have worked out in such a way that your character's abilities are exactly what were needed at that moment. There are people out there who deliberately seek out the spotlight for their characters, and they don't tend to last long in most groups. If your group isn't running you out with pitchforks and torches, I'd say to just stop worrying about it. It's not going to happen overnight, but if you keep working at it on a conscious level, it may eventually leak into the sub-conscious.

Yukitsu
2013-08-11, 01:04 AM
The point of an RPG as best I can tell is that each person should from time to time feel as though they are the star of a story. That should include you, so just take them when they come, but don't take every single moment, just take your own.

Kol Korran
2013-08-11, 01:30 AM
Hey Random_Person. I can't say I fully understand how you feel (I'm not in your shoes), but it feels like you're burned out from continuing to try to improve. You found some things you feel are at fault, and you've tried time and time again to overcome them, but your efforts didn't work, and now it's just too exasperating, too frustrating, too depressing.

That is part of the normal course in self evolution, not necesserily in game, but in life. Nearly every player/ DM that are worth their salt that I know struggle with some personal issues or skills in order to get their game better. Some people agonize over this more, some less... It is really a matter of choice. A few thoughts:
- A perfectly balanced group is nearly nonexistent. In most crowds there will be more dominant people, some people who power game more, some who just make uselss character and so on. We do not aim at perfection, or utter balance. ENOUGH balance is good, but that differs from party to party. I feel that you are striving to some impossible point where you are contributing EXACTLY enough to the party without overstepping your boundries. Let it go- that point comes about by happenstance at best, not by planning. If you and the others are having fun, than just have fun. Try to actively relax, actively let go, and yes- actively bring more to the table than your peers, as long as they don't tell you it's too much.

- You sound like you are fighting your turmoil alone. ask your friends to help, and LISTEN TO THEM, when they are telling you that you are ok. Try to take it to heart, to believe in that. After quite a few such attempts, you may find out that you start to see their point.

- As to the DMing stuff. I think what you described is good, not bad. So you have poor organizing skills. I don't know a DM who didn;t have their strength points and their weak points when they started out. The great DMs try to improve their skills. I've been DMing for many years now, and I still find some skills lacking, and working on them. At times it is frustrating, at times sessions or things I planned go less than ok. At times I find out I put my game into a real mess, that causes grief to my group. THIS HAPPENS- apologize, learn better, and try to improve.

You got poor organizational skills? Ok- time to work on them (these are good for general living too after all!) Find a friend who is good at this stuff, or maybe some online free courses or the like, and start working on your self, either in the game, or in life. Remember- Players know that you are human, and not perfect. They just ask you to try and put up a good game conscientiously.

Hope this helps,
Kol.

BWR
2013-08-11, 03:28 AM
Some people naturally take up more of the spotlight than others. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, and the way you put it it sounds like you don't like to do anything because you feel you are overshadowing the others.

Don't worry.
You are not overshadowing anybody. Every character deserves their own time to shine. If there are situations where one character dominates the situation, this isn't a bad thing in itself. It gets to be a problem when one character/player regularly dominates the situation at the expense of the others.

Much of this is the DM's duty. A DM should look at what the characters can do and try to tailor things to let various ones shine. If you manage to build a partially decent character a DM should be able to make situations where you can do your thing. E.g. in my PF group one player wanted to play a healer cleric and his build is based entirely on being a great healer, so I throw enemies that deal a lot of damage at the group. I could really screw the party over (and did last session) by sending debuff/controllers at them but I don't want to make the players regularly feel their characters are useless so I mostly stick to damage dealing opponents.

Most importantly, interesting personalities, histories and goals for the characters give the DM lots of material to work with and good reasons to have bits or even entire adventures focused on one character without reducing the others to mere window-dressing.

Autolykos
2013-08-11, 04:39 AM
You're probably not bad compared to other players, but you somehow chose to compare yourself to perfection. Don't. That path only leads to frustration. I know it's harder said than done, but don't think about it too much and just do it. Take the spotlight when your character is good at something, and let others handle it when they're more competent. Working your way up with support roles might work, but is a slow way to tackle these issues. I'd prefer to take it head first. Pick something your character should be the best at, and when his time comes, get to the front and do your thing. And when you're done, step back. That isn't overshadowing, that's teamwork. It only becomes a problem if you try to take over everybody else's specialty, too (but you seem to be as far away from that as anyone possibly can).
For GMing, being disorganized is actually more of a strength than a weakness once you're getting confident with your ability to make up stuff on the fly - and the only way to get good at it is doing it. Players will always try what you least expect, and having too much preparation can tempt GMs into railroading. At the beginning you'll probably screw up now and then, but that doesn't matter much. You're there to play (which is actually a form of learning), not to build the perfect game. Just remember: Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment.

BayardSPSR
2013-08-11, 06:08 AM
Is game balance the problem? If you like support, but Clerics and Wizards are too strong, and Bards aren't strong enough, it sound like it might be.

Fallbot
2013-08-11, 08:16 AM
Yeah, 'cept in the circles I move in 4e D&D is practically a dirty word, and 4e doesn't really work well for playing by internet.


4E works brilliantly over the internet, maybe even better than IRL, as long as you use a program like Maptool or Roll20 for positioning, preferably paired with Skype/Ventrillo/Google Hangouts/Whatever for voice chat.

erikun
2013-08-11, 08:20 AM
As I mentioned in the chat, if changing systems is a possibility, then you might give Fate Core (http://www.evilhat.com/home/fate-core-downloads/) a chance. The system free (a big plus) and the Accelerated Edition is short enough that you should easily get the idea and start creating characters in one gaming session.

The two biggest problems with Fate Core is that the general concept is quite different from standard RPGs - the goal is to create and use aspects to your advantage - and that the only mechanical benefit from an aspect is a +2 bonus on a roll. That's a significant bonus for the system, but it may trigger your "just buffing" reaction when seeing it. Of course, in the game it isn't just a mechanical buff - you are granting the character the ability to attack twice, or hobbling the giant for an opening, or something similar.


Other than that, I would recommend trying to follow the advise of a few others in the thread and try enjoying having your own time to shine in the spotlight. You aren't overshadowing other characters in doing so, so don't feel like you are.

That, or try to locate a D&D4e group and join that. It seems to be the best fit of a system for you, apparently.

Sebastrd
2013-08-11, 09:31 AM
I recommend you see a professional. It sounds like your issues are deeper than just game-related anxiety. You'll get a lot farther with a professional therapist treating the underlying cause than you will treating the game-related symptoms.

Jay R
2013-08-11, 11:03 AM
When your character gets the glory role, make a point of thanking everyone else for making it possible. You need to recognize that teamwork is real, and that things are done by a team.

In a recent 1E game, our low-level party was attacked by many warriors. All I had left were 2nd level spells.

All our melee fighters formed a shield wall, and my wizard cast a Flaming Sphere, which rolled up and down the backs of the bad guys until some were dead and the others fled screaming and burning.

My character did more than 75% of all the damage, but could not have done so without that shield wall. It was a team effort, and I made a point of saying so.

valadil
2013-08-11, 11:34 AM
How do you feel in non combat situations? If you don't like mechanically overshadowing the rest of the party or being mechanically overshadowed by the rest of the party, what about those times when you're not using combat mechanics? When the group takes 30 minutes to discuss whether to kill, tie up, or free the captive, how do you feel? I find roleplay between party members to be a bit less competitive than combat, so I'm wondering if maybe that's a part of the game you'd enjoy more.

Driderman
2013-08-11, 05:30 PM
I recommend you see a professional. It sounds like your issues are deeper than just game-related anxiety. You'll get a lot farther with a professional therapist treating the underlying cause than you will treating the game-related symptoms.

I wanted to say something along these lines, but couldn't really figure out how. This doesn't really sound like a gaming-problem as such, more like a psychological/emotional issue that emerges during gaming.

Amphetryon
2013-08-12, 06:45 AM
Consider:


Bard
Marshall
Dragon Shaman
Support Cleric


All of the above can be played as straight party buffer/defender types whose whole point is to make everyone else better at their job. War Weaver is a nice PrC complement to this concept, with at least one handbook floating around.

kyoryu
2013-08-12, 01:16 PM
Me DMing tends to work fine in the midst of the session. I have a talent for the infinitely-prolonged collapse which somehow comes across as clever improvisation. It's outside the session, where I need to organize sessions or keep track of people or just keep enough time free to run the game, that the game tends to fall apart.

Maybe enlist someone to help with the organizational aspects of the game?

And the key to avoiding the "infinitely prolonged collapse that looks like improvisation" is to not have a definite path/end goal in sight in the first place. Some GMs work better with improvisation, and it sounds like you're one of them. Instead of trying to think of a bunch of events to put the players through, have opposition, and have the opposition react.


I recommend you see a professional. It sounds like your issues are deeper than just game-related anxiety. You'll get a lot farther with a professional therapist treating the underlying cause than you will treating the game-related symptoms.

I second this. Seeing a professional isn't bad, and doesn't mean there's something "wrong" or "broken" with you - think of it as a coach. And the best professional athletes in the world have coaches.


As I mentioned in the chat, if changing systems is a possibility, then you might give Fate Core (http://www.evilhat.com/home/fate-core-downloads/) a chance. The system free (a big plus) and the Accelerated Edition is short enough that you should easily get the idea and start creating characters in one gaming session.

That's not a bad idea. The G+ group often has people playing online, and Fate Core is a great game for people that want to "enable" others and not necessarily take the spotlight, while still not feeling like a "buff-bot".

Sebastrd
2013-08-12, 02:37 PM
I second this. Seeing a professional isn't bad, and doesn't mean there's something "wrong" or "broken" with you - think of it as a coach. And the best professional athletes in the world have coaches.

If you break your arm or get a cold, you go to the doctor. But for some reason there's this stigma about illness of the mind. Your brain is an organ just like any other and can have issues - especially chemical imbalance issues.

Also, consider that you have plenty of physical education while growing up, but there is no life/mental/emotional/social education. It stands to reason that folks could use a little guidance now and then dealing with life issues as an adult.

Mr Beer
2013-08-12, 08:28 PM
I recommend you see a professional. It sounds like your issues are deeper than just game-related anxiety. You'll get a lot farther with a professional therapist treating the underlying cause than you will treating the game-related symptoms.

This, you have some kind of anxiety disorder, it's not the game as such, that's just an environment where you find your symptoms manifesting.

KillianHawkeye
2013-08-12, 10:06 PM
If you find buffing too stressful, maybe try just healing?

Drachasor
2013-08-12, 10:14 PM
I am inclined to agree with those that recommend professional help.

You seem to have some deep-seated issues regarding your self-worth. This is making it so no matter what you do in the game, you feel like you are a bad person. Either because your character isn't made well or because you do well but don't feel you deserve to ever have the spotlight.

So the real question is, do you have similar feelings crop up in other areas of life? If you are given any special notice at school/work/whatever do you also feel undeserving?

gdiddy
2013-09-01, 06:11 AM
I recommend you see a professional. It sounds like your issues are deeper than just game-related anxiety. You'll get a lot farther with a professional therapist treating the underlying cause than you will treating the game-related symptoms.

This post is very much correct.

Seek help, young man.

Gaming has tipped you off to a real problem you are facing. That doesn't mean the gaming is the problem. It sounds like you have no self worth and it's only manifesting in game.

Cough...The fact that 4e enabled and encouraged this has confirmed all my personal opinions about 4e....cough

prufock
2013-09-01, 08:04 AM
Maybe I should ask: if you aren't having fun, why do you play?

Ailowynn
2013-09-06, 09:36 PM
Random_Person--

You suck at gaming?

You can't do RPGs wrong, and I think you are doing them as right as possible.

You're thinking about the other players. You're thinking about how the group functions. You're thinking about how you can help everyone else.

That's brilliant.

Do you know how rare that is? Roleplaying isn't uncommon, but neither is power gaming. Nearly every player I've met has, to some degree, been trying to optimize his character to fill his slot, and someone else's. It's a rarity to meet someone who actually cares about what other people might want to do, and how your character will help or hinder that. If anyone is at fault, it's everyone else.

----------

Perhaps I read into your words too much, but I think that ultimately, your type of player is rarer and rarer. As for the system...

If 4E is what you want to play, try and get a game going. Head over to your FLGS. Ask your group if they're willing to try it once more.

In 3.5/PF/whatever...it's harder. I mean, I love Pathfinder, and I really don't like 4E. But striking that balance of power and not stealing the spotlight is tricky, and something I've never attempted (again, a testament to your outlook on the game, that you consider it this important). But I think the best way to do this is simple tactics. Not the strict military kind, but the teamwork kind--the kind where you distract the goblin with your skills while the rogue sneak attacks him, or the kind where you cover the wizard as he concentrates on his spells. Basically, just think about what everyone else is doing, and use your strengths to help them. Teamwork feats (PF) might help with that.

And I know everyone who has read my recent posts is sick of me advertising Edge of the Empire, but I think you should give it a try. It's FFG's new Star Wars game, and my favorite SW game to date. But the reason I think you should try it is that it really encourages team play, while letting everyone shine. The initiative system, threats and advantage, the speed of the combat turns, the destiny pool...it all creates a game where it's easy to build off of each other's actions, and for everyone to be in the spotlight at once.

EDIT: oh--and as far as "help" goes, I'd say the Adventure Coach (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i5Yw4ZoDO0) could help :smalltongue: