3.5 Helpless = No Ability Score?

[Omegas]

I was just browsing the D&D Wiki site and happened upon http://dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Ability_Score_Loss. According to them "having a 0 in any ability score, other then constitution, results in a character becoming [Helpless]."

I can understand strength & dexterity. If you can not lift your arm or coordinate your movements then your completely useless on the battle field.

Intelligence & wisdom also make since to a point. Intelligence more then wisdom but I can summit to believe that a character is too simple to understand how to attack or lacking the competence to know they are in a battle.

My problem is Charisma. Charisma is defined in the PHB as "Personality, Persuasiveness, Personal Magnetism, Ability to Lead, and Physical Attractiveness." All of which is not necessary to stab something in the face.

So my question = "Is this a RAW mechanic or is it assumed, and if it is RAW in what book & page can I find the information?"

Personal opinions are appropriated but I am looking for RAW facts.

[EyethatBinds]

Charisma is also the ability to differentiate yourself from your surroundings. When reduced to 0 you cannot act because your personality and will cannot be exerted in any meaningful way.

It is kinda BS, but those are the rules as written.

Edit: DMG page 290.

[thethird]

While any loss is debilitating, losing all points in an ability score can be devastating.

Strength 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground.
Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.
Constitution 0 means that the character is dead.
Intelligence 0 means that the character cannot think and is unconscious in a coma-like stupor, helpless.
Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless.
Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless.

Srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm)

[Medic!]

Think of Charisma a lot like Ego (in the clinical sense, not the popular sense).

If your brain doesn't recognize that you exist...well...there you have it.

Sorcerers don't create lightning bolts and death-rays based on their good looks you know!

[Yuki Akuma]

Charisma is one of the two ability scores that makes something count as a creature. If you don't have Charisma, you're an object. In this sense, Charisma is defined as the ability of something to differentiate itself from its surroundings.

And Wisdom is its ability to perceive that it and its surroundings even exist, being the second required score to be a creature. You can't have a Wisdom score without a Charisma score and vice versa.

[Omegas]

Charisma is also the ability to differentiate yourself from your surroundings. When reduced to 0 you cannot act because your personality and will cannot be exerted in any meaningful way.

It is kinda BS, but those are the rules as written.

Edit: DMG page 290.

So it is. Hum I have read the DMG more time then I can think but there it is. Strange I get your points and thanks everyone, but it looks like I need to adjust my perspective of Charisma.

[TuggyNE]

So it is. Hum I have read the DMG more time then I can think but there it is. Strange I get your points and thanks everyone, but it looks like I need to adjust my perspective of Charisma.

The most important thing about D&D Cha is that it's a mental stat, with all that implies. Once you grok that, most of its other quirks fall into place.

[Yuki Akuma]

Going off on a bit of a tangent here...

It's probably possible to have a Strength score without being a creature (Unseen Servants do, and various effects list an effective Strength score). I can see a hydraulic mechanism having a Strength score.

Plants probably have Constitution scores, due to being living objects.

Can anyone think of a way an object could have Dexterity or, Gygax forbid, Intelligence?

[Deophaun]

Can anyone think of a way an object could have Dexterity or, Gygax forbid, Intelligence?
A computer might have an intelligence score. No wisdom or charisma, though.

[Siosilvar]

A robotic arm would have a Dexterity score. I'm not sure there's any way to get one in 3.X without some variation of an animated object, which wouldn't be an object but a construct.

[Khatoblepas]

My problem is Charisma. Charisma is defined in the PHB as "Personality, Persuasiveness, Personal Magnetism, Ability to Lead, and Physical Attractiveness." All of which is not necessary to stab something in the face.

Without Charisma, you aren't you. You have no motivation, no drive, no ego.

You will simply drop to the floor, unable to do anything. Sure, you might be a little conscious. Your eyes may be open, but you aren't home. You can't even bring yourself to defend yourself if attacked. You might feel worthless, or even like you aren't a person at all.

You'll just sit there. Being nothing.

Charisma is one of the most terrifying things to lose, since you're not just losing your ability to reason, or your ability to see outside of yourself, but your identity as a person.

How can you raise your sword to protect yourself, if you feel that there is no you to protect in the first place?

[TuggyNE]

Can anyone think of a way an object could have Dexterity or, Gygax forbid, Intelligence?

Traps (of the ranged attack variety) should, but don't seem to in the rules, mostly because attack bonuses are abstracted to a single number.

Come to think of it, though, Dex is mostly the ability to react flexibly and appropriately (to attacks, spells, propioceptive feedback, or danger in general), and as such doesn't fit well on anything that's an object, because objects tend to be fairly rigid in their responses. Maybe a crude robot could make it, though, if you can figure out a way to avoid slapping a Wis score on it.

[Invader]

As a side question when a creature deals ability damage and in the description it says for instance when a creature is reduced to 0 str he dies is this a case of specific trumps general or the writer of that entry doesn't know how the game works?

[J-H]

Without Charisma, you aren't you. You have no motivation, no drive, no ego.

You will simply drop to the floor, unable to do anything. Sure, you might be a little conscious. Your eyes may be open, but you aren't home. You can't even bring yourself to defend yourself if attacked. You might feel worthless, or even like you aren't a person at all.

You'll just sit there. Being nothing.

Charisma is one of the most terrifying things to lose, since you're not just losing your ability to reason, or your ability to see outside of yourself, but your identity as a person.

How can you raise your sword to protect yourself, if you feel that there is no you to protect in the first place?

And this, class, is the problem with G-23 paxilon hydrochlorate.

[Medic!]

As a side question when a creature deals ability damage and in the description it says for instance when a creature is reduced to 0 str he dies is this a case of specific trumps general or the writer of that entry doesn't know how the game works?

That would be specific trumping general, i.e. the Wight's strength damage and disturbing reproductive tactics.

[Lateral]

And this, class, is the problem with G-23 paxilon hydrochlorate.
I'm thinking inhaled potion, with initial being a calm emotions effect, secondary being 3d6 CHA.

Either that, or I suppose you could do drug rules, with its effect being calm emotions, but its overdose being CHA damage, and if you get to 0 there's a .1% chance of becoming a reaver, which I might stat as being a permanent frenzy (as the frenzied berserker ability), with no allies.

[TuggyNE]

As a side question when a creature deals ability damage and in the description it says for instance when a creature is reduced to 0 str he dies is this a case of specific trumps general or the writer of that entry doesn't know how the game works?

As Medic! said, it's specific trumping general.


That would be specific trumping general, i.e. the Wight's strength damage and disturbing reproductive tactics.

I think you mean Shadow; Wights do negative levels. (They still reproduce disturbingly, though.)