Sewers and Skums

[EyethatBinds]

The party is going up against a potentially very difficult encounter against a team of Skum in my sewers. They have had a few minor encounters so far, an angry sewer manager dwarf, and a dungeonbred Otyugh, so they aren't at full power. With Skum being a CR2, I decided to make one of them a large Skum, which apparently makes it a mere CR 4 monster.

So would 4 medium (average) Skum and a single large Skum with a slightly higher Int (and no other abnormal stats) be an overwhelming encounter for a group of 5?
The party is 4th level consisting of a beguiler, a cleric, a druid, a barbarian, and a dragon shaman. So most of the party can heal in some capacity and they aren't badly optimized. I figure if the beguiler can get lucky on his sleep spells the lesser skum won't be an issue, and the big guy is pretty deadly but concerted effort should be able to bring it down.

Am I wrong? Thoughts?

[Omegas]

I would not say it is overwhelming but defiantly difficult. Overwhelming is an iffy statement at low levels. It all depends on your players. Do they function well as a team or do they all do their own thing and hope none of their teammates get singled out or crushed? If they can distract part of the force or face smaller portions at a time then it is just a difficult encounter and the set up of the sewers might allow of that.

Alternatively is the goal to kill them or simply progress beyond the enemy? You might suggest they sneak by the grunts and target the BBG. Or they can single out targets with hit and run tactics. Being sewers they can poke the closest target slow the rest of them down with tangle spells while they focus on one or two of them at a time. And there are many other options.

Just because your the DM does not mean you can not make suggestions. Wise players can play a simple character, but it dose not work the other way. Character's are attuned to living in their world, they are (at the DMs grace) able to offer a few ideas of their own. Weather their players choose to follow those ideas is up to the player. I commonly offer several simple but good suggestions when I think my players are in a rough situation.

If your really worried have an alternated BBF Have a natural enemy of the Skum lurking in the shadows. Just because the party is there to pick on them does not mean they dont have other problems. If things turn bad have the sound of the battle attract a stronger natural enemy. While it focus on the Skum the party has the opportunity to escape. If they are foolish enough to attack the distraction one of them should die. After they escape and lick their wounds they can return to find the Skum forces reduced or dead and the natural enemy retreated. Offer lower EXP and treasure should this happen.

One last note. Have you though about the Exp and Treasure rewards from this encounter? Should a player die it could effectively place them two levels behind the rest of the party. One from the level loss and the other because the Exp could level several party members.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Depends on how well the Beguiler and Druid can Battlefield Control and Lockdown. If they can seperate the big fellah from his companions, they could probably defeat the enemy in detail. With spells like Entangle from the Druid and things like Glitterdust from the Beguiler, they should have enough battlefield control to manage this.

The Barbarian should be able to carve up any of the smaller Skum in a single round without many problems, so once they get locked down, he can go through them like a scythe through wheat. It's only if the relatively squishy Beguiler gets dogpiled that he's going to have problems. The Druid's got Shelaligh so he's got a surprisingly nasty punch, even though he doesn't get Wild Shape until next level. And don't forget his animal companion or the fact that he can spontaneously cast SNA

I'm a bit surprised I'm seeing Dragon Shaman and 'fairly optimized' used in the same context, though. What does he really bring to the table?

[EyethatBinds]

The dwarf dragon shaman mostly pulls fighting duties and does minor healing and buffs. So he's mostly just a backup fighter with some ability to affect the barbarian's attacks. Basically, I consider him a hybrid fighter/bard but without the spells or skills. So while he might seem useless, the high con and decent hitpoints make him a great damage sponge.

The druid and cleric tend to be a nasty enough combo on their own, so I guess the SRD calculator can suck it. Thanks guys.

[Cirrylius]

an angry sewer manager dwarf

:smallbiggrin:This one brings tears to my eyes. Are you saying the players got into an actual combat with an angry utility worker administrator?

[EyethatBinds]

Absolutely, why wouldn't he be there and angry? Sometimes I like having the enemies be both realistic and ridiculous.

[EyethatBinds]

A quick update: They all died, except the druid who left early for out of game reasons.

[Spuddles]

A quick update: They all died, except the druid who left early for out of game reasons.

Can we get a bit of play by play for that? Sounds amusing.

[EyethatBinds]

Can we get a bit of play by play for that? Sounds amusing.

Well, the party encountered the Skum the first time in a large circular room mostly dominated by water. The room was 80 feet in diameter and oblong, with the entrance they came in having a 10 foot drop to the water, which appeared clear, cool and refreshing (Aboleth illusion, creature itself not present). When they jumped in to investigate the first time the Skum attacked (they even were hit by the Large Skum, thusly KNEW it was there) and they all retreated quickly to the surface to alert the city. The city naturally asked them to retrieve proof of some sort before they would risk the city guard on a chase into caverns below the sewers filled with water.

Before they went down again, the druid's player had to go as he needed some rest before his 12 hour shift the next day. His character left play and I quietly cut the number of normal Skum from 4 to 2.

So they come back and the Dragon Shaman uses his Spider Climb spell-like to walk on the wall and avoid disturbing the water, carrying the barbarian with him to investigate where they originally found the remains of a humanoid by the far shore (where I had planned the party to be assaulted from one side as the Skum exit the water). The Dragon Shaman then splashes at the edge of the water to lure out one of the Skum, quite a clever tactic so I planned to just have one exit the water to investigate.

The barbarian and dragon shaman dropped it in one round with it only hitting once for 7 damage (considerable, but hardly a death blow). Then the stupidity began...

The Beguiler decided to enter the water (rather than use Spider Climb) to swim across to join the party. The large Skum and the other normal one were already about to swim out of the water to attack the barbarian and dragon shaman, and so were less than 30 feet away from the Beguiler when he jumped in. The big Skum bit him for 24 hp, dropping him so low he could count his remaining on one hand. And the player then decided it would be a good idea to climb out, so he started to cast a spell. I reminded him it MIGHT be a good idea to cast defensively, and so he rolled. What I didn't know is he hadn't bothered to put a single rank into concentration and bombed the skill check. The next round the Skum did a full attack dishing out 38 points of damage, dropping him to negative 34... so now he's kinda dead.

The cleric, deciding to be heroic, ties a rope to a piton he plants in the stone and jumps into the water after his body (for raise dead). Meanwhile the dragon shaman tries to carry the dead Skum across the wall from his end but keeps failing the strength check to heft the body. The Skum then tears the cleric apart in two rounds without a scratch laid on him and begins to move towards the shore to go after the barbarian, who at this point the player looks about to wet herself with fear.

Finally the dragon shaman gets the dead skum off the ground (seriously 3 rounds to make a DC 10 Strength Check) and manages to carry it across the wall to the other side as the barbarian battles the massive Skum. She does tear a few of his hit points off as she both rages and power attacks him, but the 4d6+9 of his bite (improved natural attack) will not be denied. The Dragon Shaman races back to help flank and defeat the creature, but the barbarian is torn to pieces after three rounds toe to toe with the beast and drops. It turns and rips the Dragon Shaman down from full HP to unconscious in one round because of a lucky crit with a claw.

So everyone is dead now, except the druid. I even had an NPC tell them (who they knew as an expert on aberrations) not to go back down there. Didn't even have to use the other Skum still floating in the water.

I'm never trusting the monster advancement tables again.

[Maladaptive]

I'm never trusting the monster advancement tables again.

I wouldn't go that far (though most CR-related stuff is pretty unreliable anyways). The party was using some really suboptimal tactics.

Who in their right mind would spend several rounds attempting to pick up a corpse while combat is in progress a dozen feet from them? :smallsigh:

...I only just realized the above sentence applies to TWO DIFFERENT PLAYERS. :smallyuk:

[denthor]

From the DM telling the story
The Beguiler decided to enter the water (rather than use Spider Climb) to swim across to join the party. The large Skum and the other normal one were already about to swim out of the water to attack the barbarian and dragon shaman, and so were less than 30 feet away from the Beguiler when he jumped in. The big Skum bit him for 24 hp, dropping him so low he could count his remaining on one hand. And the player then decided it would be a good idea to climb out, so he started to cast a spell. I reminded him it MIGHT be a good idea to cast defensively, and so he rolled. What I didn't know is he hadn't bothered to put a single rank into concentration and bombed the skill check. The next round the Skum did a full attack dishing out 38 points of damage, dropping him to negative 34... so now he's kinda dead.

This sounds like good dice on your part.


Per the story teller:
Finally the dragon shaman gets the dead skum off the ground (seriously 3 rounds to make a DC 10 Strength Check) and manages to carry it across the wall to the other side as the barbarian battles the massive Skum. She does tear a few of his hit points off as she both rages and power attacks him, but the 4d6+9 of his bite (improved natural attack) will not be denied. The Dragon Shaman races back to help flank and defeat the creature, but the barbarian is torn to pieces after three rounds toe to toe with the beast and drops. It turns and rips the Dragon Shaman down from full HP to unconscious in one round because of a lucky crit with a claw

Bad dice on the Barbarians part and the dragon shaman doing something I do not understand.


Quote The "bard"
The cleric, deciding to be heroic, ties a rope to a piton he plants in the stone and jumps into the water after his body (for raise dead). Meanwhile the dragon shaman tries to carry the dead Skum across the wall from his end but keeps failing the strength check to heft the body. The Skum then tears the cleric apart in two rounds without a scratch laid on him and begins to move towards the shore to go after the barbarian, who at this point the player looks about to wet herself with fear.


I do not understand the why having to move a dead body by any PC. What was the dragon shaman thinking? Any ideas!!!!


This is a dice game bad/cold dice will kill you!!

One last thing who says the PC have to win after all someone before them tried and failed.

[Spuddles]

Bad luck, dangerous environment, and overwhelming stupidity.

It wasnt your fault, but in the future, it looks like they cant handle serious combats because they have ADD.