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View Full Version : [PF] Small Grappler: Feats to help?



Mr. Zolrane
2013-08-11, 09:27 AM
I am about to DM a game in which half of the players are free-willed eidolons (long, irrelevant story regarding how they got that way). They have normal class levels, but also get a limited (probably 1 every two HD) pool of evolution points to apply to their bodies.

My question, is that the ninja wants, potentially, to play this creepy little... thing... that clings to ceilings, drops down onto you, grapples you and then shreds you with natural attacks (claws, rakes [which are for grapplers only] and the like) that all proc sneak attack.

Problem is, he's playing a small character (for the myriad benefits it grants a sneaky character, and because he just likes being small), and there are penalties to CMB and CMD that go along with that. Apart from growing extra arms with the evo points to help him grapple, are there any feats that can mitigate/negate the penalties for being small?

Omegas
2013-08-11, 09:44 AM
Not really. He can reduce the effects a little with standard grappling feats but I cant think of anything that would counter his small negatives without countering all of his small benefits as well.

An item that allows him to grow like the enlarge spell might help but that is up to you as the DM.

Note there are several conditions to activating a sneak attack. The chosen weapon is not among them. True you can use light weapons while grappling but the character would have to be invisible or something else that deprives the target of their Dex mod to pull off a sneak attack. Also as the grapple is the first attack I would think this voids the stealth of the first attack, preventing the initial sneak attack.

I am more fluent with RAW then PF. Sorry I could not be more help but you might suggest boots of haste. Then they could do a drop sneak attack followed by a grapple.

StreamOfTheSky
2013-08-11, 09:54 AM
I don't understand... a player is playing a GIMPED version of a normal PC class's [b]class feature[/url] as his class? That sounds terrible if so.
EDIT: Oh, that's his race... Or a racial template or something... Nevermind.

As for your question, small grappler is just a bad idea in general, but at least in PF there are no size restrictions on grappling. He may even want to reduce person to tiny; then by RAW he uses dex for CMB instead of str, without having to waste a feat on Agile Maneuvers. I don't know his race, but goblins have a Barbarian archetype based on grappling called the Feral Gnasher he may like.

Of course, the best way for a small PC to grapple is the same way that's best for any PC to grapple: Have someone else do it. Be a spellcaster or Summoner specifically and have the summons or eidolon do the grappling for you. Along with spells that grapple for you, like black tentacles.

SolioFebalas
2013-08-12, 01:17 AM
I don't play pathfinder, so don't know if it possible to mix with another 3.0 - 3.5 books, but if possible:

Improved Grapple (PHB) +4 grapple

Abberation Blood [Flexible Limbs] +2 grapple (Lords of Madness) -> Deepspawn (Lords of Madness)

Shape Soulmeld (Girallon Arms) (MoI) +2/1 per essentia

Open Lesser Chakra (Arms) (MoI) +2 grapple

Shape Soulmeld (Kraken Mantle) (MoI)

Obtain Familiar (Octopus) +3 grapple (Complete Arcane)

But the size still remain the main thing in grapple.

Mr. Zolrane
2013-08-12, 01:04 PM
Note there are several conditions to activating a sneak attack. The chosen weapon is not among them. True you can use light weapons while grappling but the character would have to be invisible or something else that deprives the target of their Dex mod to pull off a sneak attack. Also as the grapple is the first attack I would think this voids the stealth of the first attack, preventing the initial sneak attack.

I am more fluent with RAW then PF. Sorry I could not be more help but you might suggest boots of haste. Then they could do a drop sneak attack followed by a grapple.

I'm a little bit more permissive as a DM when it comes to sneak attack, simply because I don't see anyone becoming overpowered as a result of it: grappled creatures are flatfoot under my rules, and you can full-attack sneak-attack so long as you're invisible when the attack starts (I fluff it basically as "First attack catches them off guard. The rest capitalize on their distraction.") It makes, IMO, as much sense as RAW which lets you flicker in and out, getting sneak attacks, even though the enemy knows exactly where you are.

The guy who suggested going tiny... that sounds like an interesting idea, and, as you said, frees up a feat. Plus, it makes it easier for the tank to just chuck him at people XD.