Combating the shadow Template

[Amfini]

Hello dear people of the playground.

I'm doing a campaign with a guy that have a LA+2 Shadow template we all allowed him to have, due to him being an awsome person.

Then we found out how the "Shadowmeld" thing functioned, or so we think. The only method the DM know of is to equip people with wands of Daylight.

So I come to you in the playground to ask; Do anyone of you know exactly what the abillity does, how it functions and in case, how to stop it? He is literally permanently invisible except he isn't really invisible, he just have total concealment the entire time he isn't under direct sunlight or the spell with the same name.
Casting spells doesn't reveal him, He isn't stricly hiding nor is he invisible. No matter what he does he just simply moves with free actions or move actions after doing anything that would give him away.

Would True Seeing help? Darksight (Magical/Mundane)? Detect Magic/Evil? Is everything up to DM interpretation?

Sorry if this is a self-explained question or anything, I'm still fairly new to this and is thus searching for answers from people who knows more than me. :1

[tyckspoon]

He's only visually undetectable. Alternate modes of sensing should have no problem with him, and they're not hard to find on monsters - Tremorsense/Blindsense/Blindsight/Scent should all pretty much ignore his Shadow Blend (although some of those only pinpoint rather than fully reveal him, so he'd still have the 50% miss chance), and if you have a creature with good sense skills it's not very hard to pinpoint location with a Listen check. If you're dealing with intelligent enemies (and particularly casters), then things like Mindsight and Touchsight can locate him, and although I'm not 100% sure the RAW works for this spells like Glitterdust and Faerie Fire should be able to light him up and paint him for other enemies.

[Xervous]

As Shadow Blend states that the creature "...can disappear into the shadows..." this means that the ability must be activated in order to gain any benefit. Unless otherwise noted, activating abilities takes a standard action.

[Amfini]

As Shadow Blend states that the creature "...can disappear into the shadows..." this means that the ability must be activated in order to gain any benefit. Unless otherwise noted, activating abilities takes a standard action.

Not questioning that! ^^
It's just that after he activates it once, there is no real clause to forcibly end it, excpet dousing him in light.

Taking actions doesn't end the full concealment.

[Need_A_Life]

Area of effect spells will work just fine. Blindsight, tremorsense, mindsight, good Listen check and so on will still pinpoint him. Mind-control won't reveal him (well, it could, but why not sic him on his allies instead), but is ever so fun.

Psion (Telepath)/Mindbender 1 qualifies for Mindsight with no ML loss who doesn't need to see you to target you. Besides, a dominated party member is always a fun tactical problem to deal with.

... or set him on fire. If he's burning, I'm pretty sure he's not considered to be "in shadowy illumination" or whatever the ability requires of him. Also deals a bit of damage.

[Amfini]

-- Besides, a dominated party member is always a fun tactical problem to deal with.

One of the main problems is that he plays a Chaotic Evil character and even though the player is cool, he might attack us for IC reasons. So how would us players deal with it? He also argued that glitterdust is not working due to him not actually hiding or being invisible. >_>


... or set him on fire. If he's burning, I'm pretty sure he's not considered to be "in shadowy illumination" or whatever the ability requires of him. Also deals a bit of damage.

The ability's only requirement is to not be in broad daylight or under the daylight spell.

[Xervous]

You could try traps that don't make attack rolls... which has me wondering why some traps that roll to hit don't ignore concealment...

Also, Arcane Sight will detect him without fail given he is a non-lawful good adventurer of sufficient level. (and thus carrying a magic item)

[sleepyphoenixx]

One of the main problems is that he plays a Chaotic Evil character and even though the player is cool, he might attack us for IC reasons. So how would us players deal with it? He also argued that glitterdust is not working due to him not actually hiding or being invisible. >_>

Your DM accepts that? He's covered in sticky motes of light. There's not much basis for an argument here imo.

[Grayson01]

Yeah I am inclinde to agree with the lack of an Argument. They are not seeing him they are seeing the Glittery DUST stuck to him.


Your DM accepts that? He's covered in sticky motes of light. There's not much basis for an argument here imo.

[Skysaber]

He also argued that glitterdust is not working due to him not actually hiding or being invisible. >_>

Faerie Fire specifically states that targets do not benefit from concealment provided by darkness, etc. So that certainly works. And while it is not emphasized there are tons of ways of applying faerie-fire-like effects to people, which ought to work in the same way.

Actually, since the mechanic of Faerie Fire states outright that "A pale glow surrounds and outlines the subjects." And since Glitterdust ALSO visibly outlines things in motes of light, I don't think he has a leg to stand on when he says that can't work to reveal him.

[Splendor]

We always ruled that attacking breaks the concealment.
Yes, I understand there are rules about hiding/concealment and attacking. But the character isn't hiding, he's blending. Plus a simple class feature or low level adjustment shouldn't give greater invisibility.

[Evolved Shrimp]

Also note that the Shadow template makes a creature native to the Plane of Shadow, which means that it is extraplanar on the Material Plane and thus subject to Dismissal, Banishment, and similar effects.

[Crake]

Also note that the Shadow template makes a creature native to the Plane of Shadow, which means that it is extraplanar on the Material Plane and thus subject to Dismissal, Banishment, and similar effects.

I was under the impression creatures native to coterminous planes didnt get the extraplanar subtype? Otherwise you could just dismiss ghosts

[sleepyphoenixx]

I was under the impression creatures native to coterminous planes didnt get the extraplanar subtype? Otherwise you could just dismiss ghosts

You can't dismiss ghosts because they never leave the ethereal plane, they just manifest on the material and exist partially on both planes.

[Dairuga]

Given the wording of the Shadowmeld ability, the ability can be interpreted in several ways. The ability states that, using it grants "Total Concealment", as opposed to "Invisibility", which makes it behave differently than invisibility.

On one hand, the ability states that "It works everywhere except in full sunlight", which makes it lean towards working in any circumstance where sunlight is not explicitly involved, or where it is strictly pointed out that Full Concealment does not help, or otherwise circumvent concealment. It depends on how the DM interprets it. Furthermore, the wording that "Artifical illumination", could be interpreted as anything attempting to illuminate the area short of Sunlight will fail to counter the ability.

On the other hand, it can be interpreted to mean the same as invisibility, and that a character is merely cloaking themselves in shadows, which would cause every normal method (Glitterdust; Flour, etc) to work.

In either case; on the sake of GLitterdust, the spell states:
"A cloud of golden particles covers everyone and everything in the area, causing creatures to become blinded and visibly outlining invisible things for the duration of the spell. All within the area are covered by the dust, which cannot be removed and continues to sparkle until it fades.

Any creature covered by the dust takes a -40 penalty on Hide checks."

The wording of this spell can be argued to mean: 1. It points out invisible creature, and 2. It gives hiding creatures a -40 to hide checks. If the DM interprets the Shadowmeld to act as per Invisibility, this would certainly work. The Spell itself, however, does not do anything to stop total concealment, per RAW. If the DM interprets the other interpretation of Shadowmeld, where every illumination short of Natural Sunlight fails, then this spell would -not- work to prevent the ability from working.

As for Faerie fire; the same argument can be used towards that spell as well, but Faerie fire seems to imply that it is used to negate concealment, which may leave it leaning towards being able to negate Shadowmeld. On the other hand, again, it may also be argued that Total Concealment and Concealment is different, and that while it can negate Concealment, it cannot stop Total concealment from still hiding the creature.

Long story short, it comes down to how each individual DM interprets the ability, and sets the rules for the game.

[Evolved Shrimp]

I was under the impression creatures native to coterminous planes didnt get the extraplanar subtype? Otherwise you could just dismiss ghosts

I'm not aware of any general rule, but the description of the Shadow Creature template in Lords of Madness specifically states that applying this template results in the creature being treated as extraplanar on the Material Plane.

[XenoGeno]

Your best bet would be using Glitterdust to drop his Hide check, use Spot to identify what square he's in, then blast him with Faerie Fire. By RAW, Glitterdust doesn't directly affect concealment, so that's not going to be enough by itself. FF, on the other hand, removes concealment from multiple effects; considering one of those effects is invisibility, that means it affects total concealment. Two things to keep in mind; Faerie Fire doesn't work in magical darkness of level two or higher... for example, the darkness spell. If he has a scroll of that, Daylight's your best bet. The other thing to keep in mind probably isn't going to come up, but FF's a burst, not a spread, so if he has total cover from the point of origin, he's unaffected.

As far as Dismissal/Banishment/Etc, those spells require line of sight, so they don't work until you can get rid of his total concealment, and if you can, you can probably use more... permanent solutions of dealing with him. :smallsmile:

[forsaken1111]

Even better if you can hit him with something that will deny him standard actions BEFORE he melds.

[Xervous]

Even better if you can hit him with something that will deny him standard actions BEFORE he melds.

That counters pretty much, I don't know, EVERYTHING aside from a few fringe cases.

[forsaken1111]

True.

Though I do wonder what ingame motivation you have to adventure with someone who you know to be easily capable of betraying you and getting away with it?

Most of my quasi-moral characters would have knifed him in his sleep out of sheer self preservation.

[ksbsnowowl]

<snip>

Good post.

In my games, Glitterdust does not work, but Faerie Fire does.

XenoGeno was onto something, though IMO a bit off. Total Concealment basically equals Hide check +infinity, so using Glitterdust to drop his hide check doesn't do much. However, you could use the Spot rules to effectively locate what square the Shadow Creature is in, in a similar manner to identifying the location of an invisible foe.


A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).The Rules Compendium clarifies that the invisible creature's Hide check adds on top of that.

So, still roll a Hide check for the shadow creature, and add the result to a DC of 40. That is the Spot check to notice what square the Shadow Creature is in with a mere Spot check. Or just disregard the Rules Compendium and make the Spot DC 40. Of course, I'd allow Glitterdust to affect the Hide Check if used in this instance, though not allow it to drop the DC lower than 40.

Of course, something like Arcane Sight should let you see where he is, as SU abilities are magical.

[XenoGeno]

Dropping the DC lower than 40 seems reasonable to me, and it also seems RAW; if he had a Dex and armor check penalty, couldn't those lower the DC as well? Also, looking at Arcane Sight, it seems to only detect spells and spell-like abilities, so you could use it to figure out his square based off of magic items he has, but you'd still need Faerie Fire or something to get rid of the total concealment. Arcane Sight is also more reliable than Glitterdust, just because the latter's only a 10' radius spread and Shadow creatures have 1.5 times the movement speed of a normal creature, so if he attacks in an open enough environment, it could be quite difficult to catch him with it.

I noticed you asked about True Seeing, again it might reveal the location of the square (though not as clear-cut, I'd say no as a DM personally, but I can see the arguments), but there are better, lower-level alternatives.

As to stopping him from activating his Shadow Blend... eh. I'm not sold that it doesn't automatically activate by default. Is there somewhere in the Rules Compendium or SRD that states if "can" is in the description, it has to be activated? It's probably irrelevant, though, as I imagine the character would wait to attack until he's already got it activated for whatever reason.

Out of curiosity, what's his build and what's the rest of the party consist of? Oh, and which of the special Shadow creature abilities has he chosen for every 4 HD? If, say, he doesn't have evasion or a ring of Freedom of Movement, blasty spells or Black Tentacles or the like could be good choices.

[Skysaber]

As an evil extraplanular creature, Protection From Evil and Magic Circle Against Evil become some of your DM's most happy friends.

"Sorry, you can't attack him. He's got Protection From Evil up."

Since most rules treat a person's equipment as part of that person for purposes of saves, checks, etc, the "you can't touch him" clause of Prot vs Evil should also apply to touching him with your gear, ie, your sword.

And even if Prot doesn't work, Magic Circle certainly would by keeping him 10' or more away. Most forms of reach wouldn't even help him, as long arms are just long arms, and keeping you out means keeping all parts of you out, including arms.

Could even keep him out of entire adventures by saying this or that ancient ruin/chapel/whatever is under a permanent Hallow that carries a Prot vs Evil effect.

Anyway, isn't there a Cleric spell for controlling shadows? Could be fun for an enemy to cast that on him.

[Xervous]

"Sorry, you can't attack him. He's got Protection From Evil up."


Excuse me, either I misread the spell horribly or it only affects summoned creatures.

[Amfini]

True.

Though I do wonder what ingame motivation you have to adventure with someone who you know to be easily capable of betraying you and getting away with it?

Most of my quasi-moral characters would have knifed him in his sleep out of sheer self preservation.

He is easily persuaded with breadcrumbs.
Also, because as far as a player goes, he is not a ****.
It's still a problem if he get's cloned or dominated.

[Gnarnia]

Just rule them visible to characters with darkvision and get a dwarf in your party.

Concealment rules explicitly state that characters with darkvision can see fine in shadowy conditions and the rules for shadow template rule that you're hiding in shadowy conditions, so there.

The shadow template only talks about being unable to use outside lighting to dispel the shadowy conditions in which a shadow template character is hiding. It says nothing to rule out darkvision being able to see in those shadowy conditions as normal.

From SRD:
Ignoring Concealment
Concealment isn’t always effective. A shadowy area or darkness doesn’t provide any concealment against an opponent with darkvision. Characters with low-light vision can see clearly for a greater distance with the same light source than other characters. Although invisibility provides total concealment, sighted opponents may still make Spot checks to notice the location of an invisible character. An invisible character gains a +20 bonus on Hide checks if moving, or a +40 bonus on Hide checks when not moving (even though opponents can’t see you, they might be able to figure out where you are from other visual clues).

From Shadow template:
Shadow Blend (Su): In any conditions other than full daylight, a shadow creature can disappear into the shadows, giving it total concealment. Artificial illumination, even a light or continual flame spell, does not negate this ability, but a daylight spell will.

[XenoGeno]

Just rule them visible to characters with darkvision and get a dwarf in your party.

Concealment rules explicitly state that characters with darkvision can see fine in shadowy conditions and the rules for shadow template rule that you're hiding in shadowy conditions, so there.

The shadow template only talks about being unable to use outside lighting to dispel the shadowy conditions in which a shadow template character is hiding. It says nothing to rule out darkvision being able to see in those shadowy conditions as normal.

Speaking as a player, I'd be furious if my DM ruled that after I gave up 2 levels for the template. It's not clearly RAW (as the concealment comes from a supernatural ability triggered by shadows, not shadows themselves, it's a real stretch of the rules), and it denies me the biggest perk of the template to a large group of enemies, all for a situation that hasn't even happened yet. If a DM had told me this before I made my character, fine, okay. But you can't drastically change the rules like that once the game's started.

[Gnarnia]

Undoing any previous ruling is always rough and player/DM would have to agree. And though it's not clearly rules as written, it's not clearly divergent either. The shadow template doesn't specify whether or not characters with darkvision can see them. It only specifies whether or not different types of outside illumination can dispel the effect (and darkvision is not a source of illumination).

Just speaking as a point of generality, the shadow creature template has a lot of abilities/powers tied to it, not just this one.

They also get:
+50% movement speed (lord forbid you're already playing a fast character)
5 points of damage reduction (almost worth +1 LA by itself)
Evasion (as the rogue class feature)
Fast Healing 2
etc etc etc.

Even if you were to completely remove the hide in shadows thing from the template, there's a ton of other stuff in there that could warrant +2 LA total.

[ksbsnowowl]

Just rule them visible to characters with darkvision and get a dwarf in your party.

Concealment rules explicitly state that characters with darkvision can see fine in shadowy conditions and the rules for shadow template rule that you're hiding in shadowy conditions, so there.

The shadow template only talks about being unable to use outside lighting to dispel the shadowy conditions in which a shadow template character is hiding. It says nothing to rule out darkvision being able to see in those shadowy conditions as normal.

From SRD:
Ignoring Concealment
Concealment isn’t always effective. A shadowy area or darkness doesn’t provide any concealment against an opponent with darkvision. Characters with low-light vision can see clearly for a greater distance with the same light source than other characters. Although invisibility provides total concealment, sighted opponents may still make Spot checks to notice the location of an invisible character. An invisible character gains a +20 bonus on Hide checks if moving, or a +40 bonus on Hide checks when not moving (even though opponents can’t see you, they might be able to figure out where you are from other visual clues).

From Shadow template:
Shadow Blend (Su): In any conditions other than full daylight, a shadow creature can disappear into the shadows, giving it total concealment. Artificial illumination, even a light or continual flame spell, does not negate this ability, but a daylight spell will.
No, they don't. You aren't hiding, because you don't have to hide. You have total concealment which "obviates the need for a hide check."

Magical ability to hide in darkness > (Ex) Darkvision, in a similar way to Darkness > (Ex) Darkvision.

[ksbsnowowl]

They also get:
+50% movement speed (lord forbid you're already playing a fast character)
5 points of damage reduction (almost worth +1 LA by itself)
Evasion (as the rogue class feature)
Fast Healing 2
etc etc etc.

Even if you were to completely remove the hide in shadows thing from the template, there's a ton of other stuff in there that could warrant +2 LA total.

Except you don't just get all of that all at once. Starting off you'd only have the +50% movement, a small bit of cold resistance, and one other ability. You wouldn't get a second one until 8th level. It is good template design, that continues to pay off a little bit more as you level (when many templates become weaker over time [Drow are worth the LA at low levels, but at higher levels, it isn't worth it, which is why LA buyoff is a thing]), but without shadow blend, it is no where near the +2 LA, especially at lower levels.

[demigodus]

Undoing any previous ruling is always rough and player/DM would have to agree. And though it's not clearly rules as written, it's not clearly divergent either. The shadow template doesn't specify whether or not characters with darkvision can see them. It only specifies whether or not different types of outside illumination can dispel the effect (and darkvision is not a source of illumination).

Just speaking as a point of generality, the shadow creature template has a lot of abilities/powers tied to it, not just this one.

They also get:
+50% movement speed (lord forbid you're already playing a fast character)
5 points of damage reduction (almost worth +1 LA by itself)
Evasion (as the rogue class feature)
Fast Healing 2
etc etc etc.

Even if you were to completely remove the hide in shadows thing from the template, there's a ton of other stuff in there that could warrant +2 LA total.

You have DR 5/magic. By level 4 or 5, everyone is carrying +1 weapons, and your DR might as well be non-existent

For the other abilities, it depends on the build really. If you went with classes that have poor reflex saves, Evasion is negligible. Unless you are running large distances in combat, movement speed boost isn't all that big of a deal. Fast Healing is great if your party focuses on out-of-combat healing, but that is it really.

The main feature of the Shadow Template is the Shadow Blend ability. Without that, whether it is worth any LA at all, is entirely up to the build in question. The player might end up being better off just getting rid of the template, than having it as LA+1 without Shadow Blend.

[Gnarnia]

No, they don't. You aren't hiding, because you don't have to hide. You have total concealment which "obviates the need for a hide check."

Magical ability to hide in darkness > (Ex) Darkvision, in a similar way to Darkness > (Ex) Darkvision.

Imagine a windowless room with no lightsources at all. Pitch black. Put an evil orc, a human fighter, and a dwarf fighter into it.

The orc has total concealment against the human, but not the dwarf. The orc is not hiding, he doesn't need to take an action to hide because the human just can't see him.

THe dwarf, on the other hand, has darkvision and can see the orc just fine.

The shadow template does not grant the ability to create magical darkness. The light conditions in a room where a creature is using shadow blend are identical to when that creature is not using shadow blend.

Shadow blend grants the ability to camoflage onself into any existing shadows. It's perfectly reasonable within RAW that a character that can see perfectly in 0 light level can see a character who is shadow blending. Other limitations still apply (they can't tell what color pants the shadow guy is wearing), but they could still see him.

[Gnarnia]

Except you don't just get all of that all at once. Starting off you'd only have the +50% movement, a small bit of cold resistance, and one other ability. You wouldn't get a second one until 8th level. It is good template design, that continues to pay off a little bit more as you level (when many templates become weaker over time [Drow are worth the LA at low levels, but at higher levels, it isn't worth it, which is why LA buyoff is a thing]), but without shadow blend, it is no where near the +2 LA, especially at lower levels.

You do get all of those at once. All of those abilities I mentioned are inherent to the template. The HD based abilities come off a separate list that's above and beyond these abilities.

[Dairuga]

Just speaking as a point of generality, the shadow creature template has a lot of abilities/powers tied to it, not just this one.

They also get:
+50% movement speed (lord forbid you're already playing a fast character)
5 points of damage reduction (almost worth +1 LA by itself)
Evasion (as the rogue class feature)
Fast Healing 2
etc etc etc.

Even if you were to completely remove the hide in shadows thing from the template, there's a ton of other stuff in there that could warrant +2 LA total.

To be entirely fair, there is merely a few things I would wish to point out.
A Shadow creature does not "Also" get
5 Points of damage reduction
Evasion
Fast Healing 2
etc, etc, etc.

A shadow creature gains one special ability per 4 HD it possesses, to a minimum of one. To attain every ability listed by yourself, it would require a shadow creature to be at least level 12. Wheras yes, that means that the template grows stronger the higher the level of the character in question, it does not warrant that said character has every ability listed. The 50% increase in speed is, however, a nice touch.

Also, I merely wish to point out that I wonder how 5 points of DR /magic is worth a +1 LA adjustment in itself, given that beyond level 5, it is invalidated by virtually every monster / combat-specced npc / enemy the DM might throw at an adventure party. That, however, is speaking from personal experience.

If anything, I would imagine the Fast Healing being the point that would warrant a +1 Level Adjustment by itself, not the damage reduction.

[ksbsnowowl]

They also get:
+50% movement speed (lord forbid you're already playing a fast character)
5 points of damage reduction (almost worth +1 LA by itself)
Evasion (as the rogue class feature)
Fast Healing 2
etc etc etc.

You do get all of those at once. All of those abilities I mentioned are inherent to the template. The HD based abilities come off a separate list that's above and beyond these abilities.

Want to try again?


Shadow creatures also have one additional special ability for every 4 Hit Dice they possess (minimum of one additional ability) chosen from the following list:
— +2 luck bonus on all saving throws.
—Cause Fear(Sp): 1/day. Caster level 5th. The save DC is
Charisma-based.
—Damage reduction 5/magic.
—Evasion, as the rogue class feature.
—Fast healing 2.
—Mirror Image (Sp): 1/day. Caster level 5th.
—Plane Shift (Sp): 1/day, to or from the Plane of Shadow only.
Caster level 15th.
If the base creature already has one or more of these special
qualities, use the better value.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19901886/Darkvision_vs._Hide_In_Plain_Sight_for_Assassins

[Gnarnia]

Want to try again?

I stand corrected, read those off the wrong list.

Speed +50%
Darkvision
Lowlight vision
Cold resistance 5 + 1 per hit Die
Shadow blend
one of those abilities per 4 hit dice (minimum of 1)

If I take shadow blend out of there completely, I'd peg it the template at around +1.25 LA (the movement speed is very nice, and the other hit die tied specials are pretty nice).

Shadow Blend is worth about +2 LA by itself if it works on everything (pixies have greater invis and they pay a +4 LA. They get flight and some stats too though).

[ksbsnowowl]

They get flight and some stats too though).
Some stat boosts? Try again.

-4 Strength, +8 Dexterity, +6 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom, +6 Charisma.

That's a net +20 to stats. That and flight are where the bulk of its LA is from.

Compare to the Hobgoblin, who gets +1 LA because he has a net +4 to stats.

[Gnarnia]

If anything, I would imagine the Fast Healing being the point that would warrant a +1 Level Adjustment by itself, not the damage reduction.

It'd depend a lot on the DM's monster stable, but yeah, I'm putting too much weight on it.

It'd be very useful against riff-raff, but most of your boss encounters would invalidate it (either due to magic weapons, or monsters that can bypass magic damage resistance).

[Gnarnia]

Some stat boosts? Try again.

-4 Strength, +8 Dexterity, +6 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom, +6 Charisma.

That's a net +20 to stats. That and flight are where the bulk of its LA is from.

Compare to the Hobgoblin, who gets +1 LA because he has a net +4 to stats.

When I explicitly mention other bonuses the race has, and then you state those bonuses back to me as though I don't know what they are, it makes you come across a bit crotchety.

I already said Pixie has some other things going on for it.

Do you want me to jump onto MS paint and draw up some flames to put around the word "some" for you?

The OP was asking for ways around the 100% concealment that shadow template offers that's breaking his campaign. I offered the simple suggestion that, within the rules as written, it's not explicitly ruled out that characters with darkvision can see the guy.

Your counterargument isn't that my suggestion strays too far from raw, it's that it makes shadow template too unappealing. *shrug* That's for him and his player to work out. Maybe they don't come to an agreement, maybe they shift it around some to make it more managable.

But now we're way off topic.

[Gnarnia]

Some stat boosts? Try again.

-4 Strength, +8 Dexterity, +6 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom, +6 Charisma.

That's a net +20 to stats. That and flight are where the bulk of its LA is from.

Compare to the Hobgoblin, who gets +1 LA because he has a net +4 to stats.

Hobgoblin and Mineral Warrior are both +1 LA. I don't know how they price this stuff sometimes.

To be fair to Hobgobs though, they have a +6 to stats (and considering that charisma is a dump stat for a lot of melee types, they have a +8 to melee stats. And +3 natural armor).

I just know it's a fair ruling by a DM that characters with darkvision can see shadow template characters who are shadow melding ;)

[ksbsnowowl]

I just know it's a fair ruling by a DM that characters with darkvision can see shadow template characters who are shadow melding ;)

Let's just say I completely disagree.

- The DM that will be running his PC's against some Shadow Creatures tonight.

[XenoGeno]

Regardless, I really don't think using what is, if nothing else, a strongly debatable ruling is the way to handle this situation. There are quite a few ways around the ability, and wands of Daylight are pretty useful for him and a few other encounters anyway. It might be a bit boring, but it'll work, as would Faerie Fire if you know where to aim it. Or just make sure he's aware IC that he's going to make more money and be in less danger with you guys than against you. If he's getting Dominated, it's because something turned off his Shadow Blend anyway, so you don't have to worry about that too much.


Also, since I imagine this character as Belkar-esque, how about casting a Mark of Justice on him that's triggered by him attacking one of you guys? Just get Silence it and put it on him while he sleeps.

[Amfini]

Also, since I imagine this character as Belkar-esque, how about casting a Mark of Justice on him that's triggered by him attacking one of you guys? Just get Silence it and put it on him while he sleeps.

I love the idea.
It's just a shame that he always evaporates before going to sleep. ;P
Would a DAYLIGHT spell awaken people?
I mean. Mechanically.

[XenoGeno]

I love the idea.
It's just a shame that he always evaporates before going to sleep. ;P
Would a DAYLIGHT spell awaken people?
I mean. Mechanically.

I can't find anywhere that says it does. If you want to be extra careful, just cast it so he's at the very edge of the 60' radius. I don't think the player could be too upset that he didn't wake up from that.