How does Metamagic Stack?

[Valanarch]

How do the effects of metamagic stack? For example, what would happen if I cast a Split Twinned Empowered Repeat Scorching Ray?

[Lanaya]

You just add all the effects together. In this case it'd be level, ummm, 14 I think but I'm relying on memory, each shot would do 6d6 damage, you'd shoot off four times as many rays as normal for your caster level, and next turn it'd all happen again.

[eggynack]

You just add together all the adjustments. In this case, it's 2 from scorching ray, 2 from split ray, 4 from twin spell, 2 from empower spell, and 3 from repeat. That gets you a total of 13, unless I've read something wrong. Arcane thesis is useful in times such as these.

[Valanarch]

You just add together all the adjustments. In this case, it's 2 from scorching ray, 2 from split ray, 4 from twin spell, 2 from empower spell, and 3 from repeat. That gets you a total of 13, unless I've read something wrong. Arcane thesis is useful in times such as these.

I meant for the effects of the spell, not the spell level (and I am using Arcane Thesis, along with a lesser metamagic rod of empower and Metamagic School Focus. And I'm doing all of this at 9th level).

[Spuddles]

You'd empower it, so each ray is 6d6. Split adds another ray, Twin gives you a second casting of everything, and Repeat has the whole thing go off again next turn.

So let's say you have two scorching rays from CL. That's base 4d6 & 4d6. Empower puts that at 6d6 & 6d6 (or maybe you just roll and add 50% of what your roll, empower always confuses me). Split gives you 6d6, 6d6, and 6d6 damage rays. Twin has the whole spell shoot off again, for another 6d6, 6d6, and 6d6 damage rays. Next turn, two scorching rays fire, for another 6d6, 6d6, 6d6, 6d6, 6d6, and 6d6 damage rays.

[Valanarch]

You'd empower it, so each ray is 6d6. Split adds another ray, Twin gives you a second casting of everything, and Repeat has the whole thing go off again next turn.

So let's say you have two scorching rays from CL. That's base 4d6 & 4d6. Empower puts that at 6d6 & 6d6 (or maybe you just roll and add 50% of what your roll, empower always confuses me). Split gives you 6d6, 6d6, and 6d6 damage rays. Twin has the whole spell shoot off again, for another 6d6, 6d6, and 6d6 damage rays. Next turn, two scorching rays fire, for another 6d6, 6d6, 6d6, 6d6, 6d6, and 6d6 damage rays.

Thanks. Also, does Repeat Spell work if I targeted multiple creatures with the scorching rays?

[Urpriest]

You'd empower it, so each ray is 6d6. Split adds another ray, Twin gives you a second casting of everything, and Repeat has the whole thing go off again next turn.

So let's say you have two scorching rays from CL. That's base 4d6 & 4d6. Empower puts that at 6d6 & 6d6 (or maybe you just roll and add 50% of what your roll, empower always confuses me). Split gives you 6d6, 6d6, and 6d6 damage rays. Twin has the whole spell shoot off again, for another 6d6, 6d6, and 6d6 damage rays. Next turn, two scorching rays fire, for another 6d6, 6d6, 6d6, 6d6, 6d6, and 6d6 damage rays.

Note that this is a somewhat controversial interpretation. Many people take the interaction of Empower and Maximize to set a precedent that metamagic only affects the base spell, so that Split would add another ray at 4d6, while Twin would only add three more rays at 4d6. Fans of this interpretation generally point to the word "normal" in most metamagic descriptions.

[Psyren]

So let's say you have two scorching rays from CL. That's base 4d6 & 4d6. Empower puts that at 6d6 & 6d6 (or maybe you just roll and add 50% of what your roll, empower always confuses me).

It's the second one - roll 4d6, then multiply the result by 1.5. The example is actually in the PHB (but not the SRD.)


Thanks. Also, does Repeat Spell work if I targeted multiple creatures with the scorching rays?

If all the targets are alive and haven't moved, definitely.

Where it gets less clear is if one or more targets have died, or moved out of range. By RAW it seems like the entire second spell would fail if either of these happen, but talk to your DM.

[Valanarch]

Note that this is a somewhat controversial interpretation. Many people take the interaction of Empower and Maximize to set a precedent that metamagic only affects the base spell, so that Split would add another ray at 4d6, while Twin would only add three more rays at 4d6. Fans of this interpretation generally point to the word "normal" in most metamagic descriptions.

None of the metamagic feats in my example except for Split Ray mention "normal", and it doesn't matter in Split Ray's case. And while the empower and maximize interaction could be used as an example, if that was the base rule, then why is it only mentioned on those and not for interactions between any other metamagic feats?

[Spuddles]

None of the metamagic feats in my example except for Split Ray mention "normal", and it doesn't matter in Split Ray's case. And while the empower and maximize interaction could be used as an example, if that was the base rule, then why is it only mentioned on those and not for interactions between any other metamagic feats?

That's my interpretation of the rules for stacking of metamagic, as well. Given that wizards printed like 20 metamagic feats, but only a handful with printed caveats regarding interaction with others (usually just heighten spell and the aforementioned maximize&empower), it's my belief that metamagic stacks multiplicably and not additively. And according to chrome, I made up those last two words.

[Urpriest]

None of the metamagic feats in my example except for Split Ray mention "normal", and it doesn't matter in Split Ray's case. And while the empower and maximize interaction could be used as an example, if that was the base rule, then why is it only mentioned on those and not for interactions between any other metamagic feats?

Honestly, I agree with you. I'm just pointing out that there are people on this forum who argue otherwise, and that you should probably ask your DM (unless you are the DM, in which case pick whichever interpretation looks accurate).

[Harrow]

For empower, you multiply the result by 1.5, not the number of dice. This is important because you also throw in static bonuses. Say for example you cast an Empowered Fiery Scorching Ray. At caster level 9, you would get two rays, and for each you would roll 4d6+4 then multiply the result by 1.5 (Fiery is a +1 metamagic feat from Sandstorm that adds +1 fire damage to any spell with the Fire descriptor for each die of damage). If you also used Split Ray, you would get 3 rays that did 1.5*(4d6+4) damage, and if you Twinned that it would bring it up to 6 rays.

[Spuddles]

This is important because you also throw in static bonuses..

Actually, it's important because you don't multiply static bonuses:


Empower Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit
All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half.

Static bonuses are numeric but not variable.

[Urpriest]

Actually, it's important because you don't multiply static bonuses:



Static bonuses are numeric but not variable.

The example in the feat description clarifies. 1d4+1, for example, is a variable effect. It is not a variable effect plus a static effect.

[Psyren]

Actually, it's important because you don't multiply static bonuses:



Static bonuses are numeric but not variable.

Actually you do. For example, in a magic missile, you multiply ALL the damage; (1d4+1)*1.5. This is explicitly called out on PHB 93.

Basically, the [damage] is the variable effect, thus the [damage] is multiplied - all of it.


Ninja'd by Urpriest

[Rubik]

Actually, it's important because you don't multiply static bonuses:

Static bonuses are numeric but not variable.Except the variable for a 1st level magic missile isn't 1d4. It's (1d4+1). The variable is between 2 and 5, so the +1 is part of the variable.

[edit] I got swordsaged, but good.

[Spuddles]

The example in the feat description clarifies. 1d4+1, for example, is a variable effect. It is not a variable effect plus a static effect.


Actually you do. For example, in a magic missile, you multiply ALL the damage; (1d4+1)*1.5. This is explicitly called out on PHB 93.

Basically, the [damage] is the variable effect, thus the [damage] is multiplied - all of it.


Ninja'd by Urpriest


Except the variable for a 1st level magic missile isn't 1d4. It's (1d4+1). The variable is between 2 and 5, so the +1 is part of the variable.

[edit] I got swordsaged, but good.

That's what I get for just using the SRD....

Sure makes Produce Flame and Magic Missile way cooler, though.

[Urpriest]

That's what I get for just using the SRD....

Sure makes Produce Flame and Magic Missile way cooler, though.

Yup. It also makes Unicorn Arrow really damn sexy.