The Silver Fox: Help Me Build the Perfect Thief [3.5]

[Tokuhara]

Now that my PC is working well, I have time to play around with a thought for his back-up (we're facing undead, so if he gets turned into undead kibble, I need a scrub).

So I had a thought: Any bonehead can enter a dungeon (or keep, or tower, or plane of existence), kill everything inside and plunder. It takes someone who is truly skilled to enter said location undetected, clean the coffers, and leave before anyone knows he was there.

So the base for this is Human Spellthief 1/Beguiler 4 with Master Spellthief (the idea being using Illusion/Enchantment to do my heists) who only steals from other criminals (because any thief can pickpocket a person or break into a home and steal a sack of gold while a master thief can break into another thief's den and rob him blind).

How should he be built so he can properly accomplish his job as a master thief?

What I'm looking for:

Items
PrCs/Builds from my base
Feats

Goal:

Someone who at 20th could sneak into the Tomb of Horrors, clean it out, and leave undetected

[SoraWolf7]

If you want some good ideas, head to the Complete Scoundrel for some skill tricks that can be useful in taking out locks and staying hidden, such as Clever Improviser. Complete Scoundrel can also give you a list of spell staples for your magical miscreant.

There's also the Arcane Trickster class that lets you use Ranged Legerdemain, aka Open Lock, Slight of Hand, and Disable Device from 30 ft max. 9 levels of that gives you not only 9 more spell levels worth of beguiler but also 3 Legerdemain uses per day, so if you know a chest is dangerous, you can pop it at far and get around a floor trap without disabling or triggering it.

Also: Only the sharpest eye, the keenest nose, the swiftest feet, and the fleetest toes, can ever outfox the Fox!

[Grayson01]

This is an amazing idea just wanna say that first. I have always wanted to make a Spell thief who's whole thing was stealing from Magic useres beacuse "they are the real test of a Theif" in his point of view. I am away from my books but Darkstalker is a must. Beacuse what wizard worth stealing from dosen't have a Gaurd dog with See invisiblilty casted on him! The Skill Tricks I would go with is conseal Spellcasting, and Corner Pearch(this one just for the Fluff of it). Silent Spell would also be an important feat to take. Is Steath the only aspect that you want? what about bluffing or Diplomaticly getting through some of it, or are we talking straight up get in get out and no one knows? Oh two Imovable Rods is a great versatile trick for getting around, and the 3x perday boots of flying. A Gloom Mask allows you to see in Magical Darkness. Are you that concerned with Stealing Spells? Cause if not Beguiler might just be the better class but Spelltheif is not a killer but with having to keep a High Int and High CHA it could be a little MAD.

[avr]

Going a slightly different way, a changeling Rogue 1 (using the racial sub level) / Artificer X might always have the right tool for the job, and be able to cover the social engineering role with skills, buffs and and their racial change shape ability.

Regardless, Darkstalker is a necessary feat. Going with your original idea a familiar is a handy scout, so Obtain Familiar might be worthwhile.

[Chronos]

Ah, exactly the sort of thief build I like. Forget all this nonsense about Sneak Attack; you want to go everywhere and take everything with nobody being the wiser. If you really insist on killing them, do it after they're deprived of all their stuff.

The link in my sig has a bunch of suggestions. The build most optimized for this purpose would be the Dungeon Delver:


Human factotum 3/psychic rogue 1/incarnate 1/umbral disciple 1/ranger 1/factotum +1/slayer 1/uncanny trickster 1/umbral disciple +2/uncanny trickster +2/marshal 1/exemplar 1/slayer +4/factotum +1
Oh, just look at the table.

Ability scores:
Str 8
Dex 12
Con 13
Int 16 plus all level-up points
Wis 8
Cha 14

{table=head]level | class | skills | feats | special
1 | Factotum 1|40|Able Learner, Nymph's Kiss|Cunning Insight, Cunning Knowledge, trapfinding
2|Factotum 2|10||Arcane Dilettante
3|Factotum 3|10|Darkstalker|Brains over Brawn
4|PsiRogue 1|10||Sneak Attack, powers
5|Incarnate 1|6||2 soulmelds, 1 essentia
6|Umbral Disciple 1|10|Psicrystal Affinity|2 essentia, sept knowledge, step of the bodiless
7|Ranger 1|10|Track|Favored Enemy, Wild Empathy
8|Factotum 4|11||Cunning Strike
9|Slayer 1|9|Obtain Familiar|Favored Enemy, Enemy Sense
10|Uncanny Trickster 1|13||Bonus trick
11|Umbral Disciple 2|11||Sneak attack 2d6
12|Umbral Disciple 3|11|Practiced Manifester|3 essentia, embrace of shadow
13|Uncanny Trickster 2|13||(advance Slayer) Bonus trick, brain nausea
14|Uncanny Trickster 3|13||(advance Slayer) Bonus trick, Lucid Buffer
15|Marshal 1|9|Craven, Skill Focus: Diplomacy|Minor aura (motivate dex)
16|Exemplar 1|14||Skill mastery, skill artistry (sleight of hand)
17|Slayer 2|10||Favored enemy
18|Slayer 3|10|Bonus Essentia|
19|Slayer 4|10||Cerebral blind
20|Factotum 5|12||Opportunistic Piety[/table]

This is a build that can hit any DC you throw at it, in any of the skills useful in dungeoneering. With reasonable equipment, you can get +63 Hide, +61 Move Silently, +43 Search, +50 Disable Device, +58 Sleight of Hand (and Skill Mastery in all of those), or much more if you're willing to burn psionic powers, spell slots, wands, or other expendable resources. In addition, your Hide also applies against most nonmagical means of detection, you can hide in plain sight and provide your own concealment, and you're all but impossible to find magically.

This is of course an illustration of how much freedom a skillmonkey has in mixing and matching classes. The order of most of the levels can be shuffled around; this order gave what I considered the higher-priority abilities earlier, but that can vary based on circumstances.


You might not want (or be allowed) to use all the pieces of that, but it's pretty modular: You can mix and match a lot.

[Waker]

I like making weird suggestions, so how about Incarnate/Beguiler/Soulcaster? You can use melds like Thief's Gloves to pump your skills even higher and to help compensate for your weakness to undead, like Pauldrons of Health or Strongheart Vest. Not to mention the handiness of the Illusion Veil.

[koboldish]

Also: Only the sharpest eye, the keenest nose, the swiftest feet, and the fleetest toes, can ever outfox the Fox!

That was a great movie. Anyways, have you considered using things like all of the kobold features and that one class that makes you coun't as a size smaller for squeezing? You could literally worm your way through holes about 4 inches thick. Holes that small are very easy to create.

[Tokuhara]

Such a response. I'm impressed.

But anyways, Master Spellthief as the base is because it fits thematically with what I'm going for (Stealing the unstealable) and has been something I've wanted to play for a while. Plus, I feel that Spellthief into Beguiler into [Insert PrCs here] has loads of potential as a thief who is but an alias and a calling card.

My mental image is a human skulking into the Tomb of Horrors, dodging every trap, avoiding every enemy, and escaping unscathed with the horde of riches in his Heward's Handysack covered in Bags of Holding undetected by the eldritch monstrosities that lie within with only a silver fox statue left on the altar. This is immediately followed by the lich owner throwing his wizard hat on the ground and stomping it flat. Think of the Nightingale Trial from Skyrim.

Now, Arcane/Magical/Uncanny Trickster are definite pieces to the puzzle (all offering my Master Thief tools to play with), the plethora of skill tricks (Corner Perch and Conceal Spellcasting mentioned, though I bet that almost 90% of the "skill"-based tricks [lockpicking, hiding, moving quickly, jumping, etc] would come in handy, though it'd cut into my 9/7+int skill points/level [8/6 skill points +1 for Human + Intelligence + Open Minded/Jack of All Trades/Able Learner {sadly DM has banned Nymph's Kiss :smallfrown:}] that I could spend on skills), and Darkstalker (a required feat for any sneak) all make a lot of sense. The items (Immovable Rods, Gloom Mask, Boots of flying 3/day) would have to wait until I had the capital to spend on them (9k as a 5th level, and I'll be keeping his character sheet updated) because I know for a fact some of those are EXPENSIVE. I also would personally grab a Spool of Endless Rope (a must-have for any thief), a Masterwork Lockpicking set (no-brainer here), hidden blades [all of them] (Rather not have to use violence, but it may be a necessity) and a "MIC Replacing Enchantments Rules" Studded Leather Armor of Useful Items (to pull out options whenever I needed them). He'll have the stereotypical "thief mask", lots of storage space, and weapons in case of the odd bad roll.

Please keep them coming so The Silver Fox can be reviled as "The Best Thief in the Land"

[Note] Really sorry for all of the Parentheticals in the above statement.

[MilesTiden]

Shadowcaster has Night's Long Fingers, which, combined the large Sleight of Hand bonuses they can get and the ability to use SoH at range makes for a great possible dip.

[Grayson01]

I would really love to see this charcter when you are all done with it. i have a deep seated love for the Rouge archtype. Most of my friends know that the Compelte Scoundral is my DnD Bible. I will have to, when I finall get out of work DARN YOU MANDATORY SUPRISE OVER TIME, go thorugh my books and see if I can drum up any more useful items, feats, PRCs, or Skill tricks.

[Chronos]

The Robe of Useful Items and the Spool of Endless Rope are both traps. Most of the things on the Robe are just ordinary mundane items that you could just keep in your Handy Haversack, and re-use them to boot. And a Spool of Endless Rope is just a 500' long rope that you can't cut into shorter pieces. Just buy ten 50' lengths of silk rope and tie them together.

Also, if you're planning on using Master Spellthief, be aware: It does increase the maximum level of spell you can steal, but it does not increase the maximum number of spell levels you can store for later use. So you can steal a high-level spell to deny it to an opponent, but you can't then use it yourself.

[Norin]

I must say i love the concept and have for ages wanted to play somthing similar. Only issue i keep hitting is that i never seem to get effective enough in a given thing.

If i focus on mundane stealth, i seem to lack alot in combat.
If i focus on combat i lack in versatility and skills.
If i try to offset this with spells i end up either becoming more or less a caster with cl loss, or a char with too few caster levels to really be able to use casting effectively.

It's a hard concept to really make work. So i'm in for inspiration. ;)

[Fax Celestis]

I would highly recommend the trickster spellthief ACF from Dragon Magazine for this.

[Kansaschaser]

Don't forget to pick up a couple Wands of Shrink Item. The best thiefs can steal anything of value. If you find something of value that is too large to carry or put in a bag of holding, shrink it first with the Wand of Shrink Item.

The rogue in my campaign was incredibly greedy and he would steel the Adamantine door off it's hinges, the ivory grand piano, that gem encrusted marble statue, and any chest he could find by shrinking them. He would then unshrink the chests later at a safe location and then disarm any traps and unlock the chest.

If you find an expensive mechanical trap and you just disarmed it, shrink it down if possible and sell it later. Some of them are worth a lot of money. If it's a magical trap, don't worry about shrinking it.

He also used the wand to remove some obsticles from his path. Shrink Item allows you to shrink fire and it's fuel, so he used it to remove burning rubble out of the way. I suppose you could also use it to shrink boiling oil, vats of acid, and maybe even lava.

For a great Thief, it's all about bringing the right tools.

[Urpriest]

Don't forget to pick up a couple Wands of Shrink Item. The best thiefs can steal anything of value. If you find something of value that is too large to carry or put in a bag of holding, shrink it first with the Wand of Shrink Item.

Of course, the greatest thief of all time was Carmen San Diego... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12203753&postcount=311)

[Kansaschaser]

Of course, the greatest thief of all time was Carmen San Diego... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12203753&postcount=311)

Wow, that Khariman Sandiga is one ambitious thief. Never before in my professional career as a rogue have I ever tried (nor contemplated) stealing an entire building. But, I suppose if you were large enough and strong enough, the Shrink Item spell would be unnecessary.

[SoraWolf7]

Strangely enough, that reminds me of Lupin III's stealing of a clock tower or some other large building of importance. It was just to prove he could. But yes, that is probably the best thief build I've ever seen. I'm envisioning that she could just airlift the dungeon out of the mountain and then crack it later, bit by bit.

[Tokuhara]

Strangely enough, that reminds me of Lupin III's stealing of a clock tower or some other large building of importance. It was just to prove he could. But yes, that is probably the best thief build I've ever seen. I'm envisioning that she could just airlift the dungeon out of the mountain and then crack it later, bit by bit.

The bolded text is the big important note: The Silver Fox is a thief of "Stealing for Stealing's sake", not caring about the money/fame/etc associated with the act, but for the simple fact of a challenge. He wants a heist that is a worthwhile challenge, not just "I pick his pocket." He wants a building/dungeon/whathaveyou that proves without a shadow of a doubt that he is the best, most unparallelled thief to ever live.

This guy is so much of a thief that I'm blowing Skill Points into Profession: Thief. This guy's so much of a thief that his profession is thief. This guy doesn't moonlight as a thief while being a blacksmith or hold a sermon for the local church. He's a thief. Pure and Simple.

[Telonius]

There are a few Shadow Hand maneuvers and stances, from Tome of Battle, that would really fit in. Shadow Blink, Step of the Dancing Moth, Balance on the Sky, Dance of the Spider, even something like Child of Shadow. They'd all help with breaking and entering, as well as fleeing afterwards.

[Tokuhara]

There are a few Shadow Hand maneuvers and stances, from Tome of Battle, that would really fit in. Shadow Blink, Step of the Dancing Moth, Balance on the Sky, Dance of the Spider, even something like Child of Shadow. They'd all help with breaking and entering, as well as fleeing afterwards.

So that's Martial Study (one of the above Maneuvers) I should grab as well (No real space to put Swordsage 1 when taking into account Magical/Uncanny/Arcane Trickster on a Spellthief/Beguiler Master Spellthief base).

So far, The Silver Fox is looking at:

Spellthief 1/Beguiler 6/Magical Trickster 3/Uncanny Trickster 3/Arcane Trickster 5/?? 2

[Piggy Knowles]

I would highly recommend checking out the Gnowhere Gnome (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29427631/). It's a beguiler 20 build focused on stealth, but you could easily turn it into a Spellthief 1/Beguiler 19 build without a huge loss.

It's sitting around with Hide +52 and Move Silently +48, plus Darkstalker and several ways to trigger hiding even while being observed. Not only that, but it has a very cool trick involving Spectral Skirmisher and Evasive Reflexes - if an enemy pinpoints the gnowhere gnome via Mindsight or similar abilities and targets his square, he gets a free AoO via Spectral Skirmisher, which he can then funnel into Evasive Reflexes to 5' step out of that square. So even when enemies DO locate him, he won't be there when they try to go after him.

[Turion]

If you're investing in UMD at all, just buy a wand of heroics and use it to gain martial study instead of spending feats on it. It's only 4'500 gp, lasts for 30 minutes (10 if made by an artificer), and you always have a maneuver appropriate to your IL.

[Phaederkiel]

can never outfox the fox!

i love you people.


I'd like to underline two ideas other people said:

a) changeling rogue substitution. Changeling opens up all those incredible social tricks, while netting you big skillpoints. Take feat rogue and get darkstalker at lvl 1.

b) shrink Item is my fav spell EVER. Especially chained.




and then, the most important item of them all: shapesand. never need mundane items.

Nolzurs pigments and gloves of object reading are the next picks. no, dear dm, there IS a door in this wall. And pray tell me, who owned this coin before i took it? and who before he took it?

[pilvento]

No mention of unseen seer? preparation is key for every thief, and you will need divination for that!

[Tokuhara]

So the Silver Fox should be a:

Changeling Feat Rogue 1/Trickster Spellthief 1/Beguiler 6/Magical Trickster 3/Uncanny Trickster 3/Arcane Trickster 5/Unseen Seer 1?

[Fax Celestis]

I would recommend a Wand Bracer (Dungeonscape) with a wand of entice gift (CScn) at all times.

[Tokuhara]

I would recommend a Wand Bracer (Dungeonscape) with a wand of entice gift (CScn) at all times.

Entice Gift is almost good enough for me to blow an Advance Learning on it.

[Fax Celestis]

Fetch, smoke stairs, and winged watcher (and to a lesser extent, aquatic escape) from that same book are amazing for this kind of character too.

[Tokuhara]

They definitely are Fax

[Piggy Knowles]

As an aside, for two feats, you can get into almost anywhere - Shape Soulmeld (Phase Cloak) and Open Lesser Chakra (Shoulders). That'll let you turn ethereal whenever you move 5' or more, which means that you can completely bypass the vast majority of traps, walls and barriers you'll come across.

[Tokuhara]

As an aside, for two feats, you can get into almost anywhere - Shape Soulmeld (Phase Cloak) and Open Lesser Chakra (Shoulders). That'll let you turn ethereal whenever you move 5' or more, which means that you can completely bypass the vast majority of traps, walls and barriers you'll come across.

My worry is how. feat starved I am

[Phaederkiel]

So the Silver Fox should be a:

Changeling Feat Rogue 1/Trickster Spellthief 1/Beguiler 6/Magical Trickster 3/Uncanny Trickster 3/Arcane Trickster 5/Unseen Seer 1?

I am not entirely sure what each of the tricksters gives to you. But since beguiler is great pretty much out of the box...


one lvl in a specialist conjuring wizard can be great, too. Abrupt jaunt is just as great for dodging traps as it is for dodging attackers.

[avr]

My worry is how. feat starved I am
You can probably skip martial study; the soulmelds are an order of magnitude more useful than a once/5 min 50' teleport. If you were to dabble in maneuvers swordsage would make that once every other round, but you may not need to if you can turn ethereal.

Now, if you want to be feat starved again, look at the recaster (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050407b&page=3) PrC and try to figure out how you could get a couple of metamagic feats ...

Edit: I'm not sure I see the attraction in taking multiple levels of arcane trickster, BTW.

[Kansaschaser]

As an aside, for two feats, you can get into almost anywhere - Shape Soulmeld (Phase Cloak) and Open Lesser Chakra (Shoulders). That'll let you turn ethereal whenever you move 5' or more, which means that you can completely bypass the vast majority of traps, walls and barriers you'll come across.

Wow, that's such a good idea I'm going to steal it for my next Thief build. (See, I'm such a good Thief that I'm stealing ideas. :smallcool:)

[Tokuhara]

You can probably skip martial study; the soulmelds are an order of magnitude more useful than a once/5 min 50' teleport. If you were to dabble in maneuvers swordsage would make that once every other round, but you may not need to if you can turn ethereal.

Now, if you want to be feat starved again, look at the recaster (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050407b&page=3) PrC and try to figure out how you could get a couple of metamagic feats ...

Edit: I'm not sure I see the attraction in taking multiple levels of arcane trickster, BTW.
:smallannoyed:
Arcane Trickster gives me Ranged Leidgerman (?) which let's me Sleight of Hand/Disable Device/Another Skill at 30' away .2/day

[Fax Celestis]

:smallannoyed:
Arcane Trickster gives me Ranged Leidgerman (?) which let's me Sleight of Hand/Disable Device/Another Skill at 30' away .2/day

It also gives you Impromptu Sneak Attack, which is awesome.

[Chronos]

The really annoying thing about Arcane Trickster is that it implies that you can't do that without the class. The Mage Hand spell says that you can use it to do anything you could do with one hand, so you really ought to be able to use it for Sleight of Hand etc. anyway.

[Piggy Knowles]

Trickery Devotion can explicitly make skill checks, so that's another option.