Best way to deal with werewolf LA?

[Galvin]

Hi GITP

I am presented with two options to rid mineself of the LA from the werewolf template, the werewolf progression levels, or LA buyoff. So... which is the better choice?

Link:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a

[Big Fau]

Why not both? Use the progression, then when you finish it use buyoff.

[Segev]

Buy-off, especially if you can convince your DM that your animal HD count as "levels" towards the 3xLA needed to start on it.

Not only do I personally dislike progression-levels for races, but they actually still COST you levels, whereas LA eventually is totally bought off. Werewolf LA is only +2, IIRC, maybe +1 for infected, and so the first is bought off 6 levels in, and it's gone except for the animal HD by 3 levels later. Animal HD may not be the greatest, but the "class features" of the werewolf template are worth it for the right build.

[SolioFebalas]

Buy-off.

Also if Eberron books available, take a look at Weretouched Master Prc.

[Crake]

Buy-off, especially if you can convince your DM that your animal HD count as "levels" towards the 3xLA needed to start on it.

Not only do I personally dislike progression-levels for races, but they actually still COST you levels, whereas LA eventually is totally bought off. Werewolf LA is only +2, IIRC, maybe +1 for infected, and so the first is bought off 6 levels in, and it's gone except for the animal HD by 3 levels later. Animal HD may not be the greatest, but the "class features" of the werewolf template are worth it for the right build.

Considering the animal HD are racial HD, and the LA buyoff rules specifically say only class levels count, then good luck.

[Galvin]

Thanks guys! Buyoff is obviously the better choice.

[Urpriest]

Wait a minute wait a minute.

What do you actually want here? To be a werewolf, as in the race? To be able to turn into a wolf? To be able to turn into a hairy, bitey hybrid form? To have all of the abilities of a full werewolf, no matter how suboptimal?

If the first, you only need one level of the Savage Progression, with no RHD gained whatsoever, to count as a werewolf. If your DM is nice, you'll be able to buy off that level, since it's got no HD associated and is such presumably made of Level Adjustment. If not, an empty level might be better than two wolf RHD, especially since the full werewolf level adjustment won't be bought off until ECL 12 anyway.

If the second, one level in the Savage Progression gives you that, as does enough Druid or Ranger to cast Aspect of the Wolf (it's a first level spell that lasts 10min/level, so should easily cover your turning-into-a-wolf needs).

If the third, Shifters do this for no RHD or LA. Just fluff a Shifter as a full lycanthrope.

If the latter...then your options are determined by starting level. If you're starting higher than level 4, take the full template and use LA buyoff. If you're starting at lower level, you have to use the Savage Progression.

[Gnarnia]

Savage progression with lycanthropes is a good concept, but horribly broken in implementation. Just look at what happens if you make a werebear lord using the savage species progression:

+1 LA: alternate form: Dire bear at will. palmface


The only way to fairly handle lycanthropes using a savage species type progression is to require completion of the animal hit dice first, and only then progress into the lycanthrope levels.

So if you want to be a werebear lord, you first need to put on 12 hit dice worth of animal. You don't get the extra attributes then (because those only apply when you're in animal or hybrid form, and you can't turn into those forms yet).

After you have those 12 hit dice of animal, then you start putting on your lycanthrope LA (two for afflicted, three for natural, but they should be required to be added consecutively without interrupting for other classes).

For a werewolf (2 hit dice) or a were rat (1 hit die), this isn't a terrible investment. But it fixes the savage species progression which is all messed up.

Another mistake savage species made is putting the animal attribute modifiers as a flat bonus. For lycanthropes, the only flat stat bonus is +2 wis. As noted above, the other modifiers only apply in animal or hybrid form.

The only thing savage species really did right was the order of abilities when progressing through the lycanthropy part (full animal form at 1st level, hybrid form at 2nd level).

[Urpriest]

Savage progression with lycanthropes is a good concept, but horribly broken in implementation. Just look at what happens if you make a werebear lord using the savage species progression:

+1 LA: alternate form: Dire bear at will. palmface

Yes, but if you read the description you'd see it's purely cosmetic, as Disguise Self. You don't get any of the other abilities without Dire Bear levels.

Not saying there isn't other silliness lurking there, of course.



Another mistake savage species made is putting the animal attribute modifiers as a flat bonus. For lycanthropes, the only flat stat bonus is +2 wis. As noted above, the other modifiers only apply in animal or hybrid form.


That's the real problem: they have the ability boosts, and they also have Wolf Abilities and similar. Clearly the ability boosts were only supposed to apply when Wolf Abilities says you get the wolf's abilities, but they forgot to actually word it that way.

[Blackhawk748]

Personally my group has found out that many werecreatures dont need their RHD, so we tend to play Werewolves at just their +3 LA, they are resonably balanced actually at ECL 4 with one class level instead of being sup par at ECL 5 with two RHD

[Gnarnia]

Yes, but if you read the description you'd see it's purely cosmetic, as Disguise Self. You don't get any of the other abilities without Dire Bear levels.

Not saying there isn't other silliness lurking there, of course.

So you only need to burn 1 HD to turn into a dire bear. My mistake :p

[Gnarnia]

Personally my group has found out that many werecreatures dont need their RHD, so we tend to play Werewolves at just their +3 LA, they are resonably balanced actually at ECL 4 with one class level instead of being sup par at ECL 5 with two RHD

Werewolves have never really been the problem, ironically enough. As animals go, wolves are fairly tame.

The problems you can run into are with lycanthropy template applied to other creatures.

If someone's going to make a were dinosaur or something... you definitely want them spending the animal hit dice :)

[Keneth]

Use Pathfinder version; No racial hit dice and no LA.

[Gnarnia]

Use Pathfinder version; No racial hit dice and no LA.

Yeah, but they're not recommended for play in Pathfinder though, are they?

There's no such thing as LA in Pathfinder, but then conversely they limit the races that they recommend be allowed for players to play.

[Keneth]

Yeah, but they're not recommended for play in Pathfinder though, are they?

They're not recommended for play in 3.5 either. :smallbiggrin:

The point was that in Pathfinder they're at least playable without completely crippling the player. Well, other than the fact that you're a lycan, and you want to rip stuff apart on a full moon.