I have a few questions...

[Mr. Mason]

My current character idea is for a Sparrow Hengeyokai Ninja, but I'm not sure this is the way to go. I like the flavor that the Sparrow gives the Ninja; what I don't like is that it seems I'll be condemning myself to a pathetic life of mediocrity and shame. By-the-by, he'll be at level five in a fairly low powered group. Our most powerful character is the bard/assassin by far. The entire reason I'm making a new character is because my DM is asking us to pour on the damage. (I know that more effective damage dealers exist, but I LOVE the flavor of this one.)
So, time for the first question: why is Ninja at tier five while Rogue is at tier four? A Ninja just seems to have the chassis of the Rogue while implementing some cool stuff.
Another key concept to my proposed person is that I want to almost exclusively specialize in ranged combat -- preferably with Assassin's Needles. (Which I think my DM will let me take without any special feats on account of flavor and overall lackluster-ness.)
Assassin Needles


Exotic Light Thrown


Critical:
18-20/x3

Range Increment:
20 ft.

Type:
Piercing

Hardness:
—


Size

Cost1

Damage

Weight1

hp

Fine * * 1
Diminutive * 1 * 1
Tiny * 1d2 * 1
Small 5 gp 1d3 * 1
Medium 5 gp 1d4 * 1
Large 7 gp 1d6 * 2
Huge * 1d8 * 4
Gargantuan * 1d10 * 8
Colossal * 2d6 * 16
1. The SRD only gives a means to determine costs and weights of weapons for Large and Small versions based on the Medium weapons. Any other supplied values are the author's best determination.


Assassin Needles are iron needles, only a few inches long and very thin. Their form is made to kill when used properly; sometimes, they are hollowed to allow for the delivery of poisons. They are very easy to conceal; the holder gains +5 to his Sleight of Hand check for the purpose of concealing the needles.

Assassin needles cannot be used in melee. Assassin Needles are not destroyed when used.
My question is: how can I crank up the damage on the guys -- specifically through the number thrown? I think poison and enchantments would also be a good way to go.
Finally, I have no idea which feats or items to get. I have only ever played casters, so I'm excited to learn why someone would voluntarily decide to not have complete and total mastery of the laws of physics...
I appreciate your time, thank you!

[avr]

The big difference between the rogue and the ninja is that one gets sneak attack, which can be used to deliver reasonable to good damage, while the other gets sudden strike which can't, at least past round 1. Sneak attack (and TWF and/or rapid shot) is one obvious way to make your assassin's needles viable in combat for example.

IMO a swordsage could have exactly the same flavour as a ninja while not falling into the trap of being both flimsy and ineffective in combat which the ninja does. You get to bend the laws of physics without shattering them, it may be easier than going cold turkey on casting.

[Nettlekid]

Hmm...My first thought about why Ninjas are lower tier than Rogues is that Sudden Strike is quite inferior to Sneak Attack. Most of the time, Rogues gain Sneak Attack via flanking (or such has been my experience), while Ninjas can only get it by catching a foe flat-footed. Couple that with fewer PrCs made with the Ninja in mind than the Rogue, fewer skill points and a slightly worse list (no UMD hurts a lot) and it makes a bit of sense why the Ninja is just seen as a specialized and slightly inferior Rogue. But Ninjas are fun anyway.

First off, can I ask what level you are? That rather makes a difference, a bit at least.

I like the Sparrow idea, but not for the reason you might think. Since Sparrows are Fine, you get a free +16 size bonus to Hide. If you take Darkstalker (as all stealthy skillmonkeys should) then with that bonus, your ranks, and your high Dex then you're almost guaranteed not to be seen. Which means you can surprise people with your Sudden Strike quite effectively. The problem of course being that Sparrows have no natural attacks, and I'm not sure but I doubt you'll retain your proficiencies as a Sparrow. Maybe you could get Fine-sized claw gloves or something. The Raptoran's Foot Spike from RotW might work. I think it's important that you have a means to attack in Sparrow form, since you have a limited number of changes per day and it's a full-round action to change, so it's pretty hard to Sparrow up and then ambush someone in Ninja mode.

I do have to ask though, despite how cool Ninjas are, since it seems like the star player of the party is an Assassin, aren't you worried about a little overlap? Two stealthy, sneaky characters who creep up to stab their enemies' vital areas for high damage? Thinking about this build, something that came to mind that might be interesting is instead of Ninja, using Scout. You'll still be a skillmonkey, but with a distinctly different skill list more akin to the Ranger's. Instead of needing to surprise your foes to get extra damage, you just need to move 10 feet. And, cheesy though it may be, falling is a free action. You could fly up 15 feet above your enemy, fall into their space, full attack them, and then perhaps with Travel Devotion fly away.

For either build, since Sparrow form seems like one of your best modes to be in, might I suggest two levels of Totemist? It will grant you the ability to bind Manticore Belt to your Totem Chakra, which then lets you launch Essentia number of spikes at your opponent as a Standard action. Unfortunately this means that only one spike of the bunch will get the extra damage from either Skirmish or Sudden Strike, but it's a good means of getting some ranged support, and since your items meld into you with your transformation, Soulmelds are a good way of making use of your body slots.

As for feats, I suggest Darkstalker for stealth, the Rapid Shot chain if you do use those throwing needles (full attack means that all attacks get your extra damage, so more attacks are better), and perhaps Giantbane and/or Underfoot Combat/Confound the Big Folk. Those are good for making foes flat-footed and thus vulnerable to your Sudden Strike, and since you'll be Fine they work on anything Tiny and bigger.

[Splendor]

Since you're a Hengeyokai prestige into the warshaper prestige class (complete warrior pg 90). You become immune to critical hits, gain natural weapons, +4 to STR & CON, reach and fast healing.

[Mr. Mason]

First, I would like to thank all of you for your swift responses -- I do appreciate it! You have all given me a lot to think about.

I love the swordsage; it seems to be exactly what a ninja should be! I hadn't really thought about using my sparrow form for combat, but I think that, if nothing else, it seems like a decent second option!

Can you use Maneuvers and Stances in an alternative form? (Read, Sparrow Form)

Are any of the Maneuvers specifically applicable to ranged combat with the Assassin's Needles?

Thank you,
Mr. Mason

[Nettlekid]

First, I would like to thank all of you for your swift responses -- I do appreciate it! You have all given me a lot to think about.

I love the swordsage; it seems to be exactly what a ninja should be! I hadn't really thought about using my sparrow form for combat, but I think that, if nothing else, it seems like a decent second option!

Can you use Maneuvers and Stances in an alternative form? (Read, Sparrow Form)

Are any of the Maneuvers specifically applicable to ranged combat with the Assassin's Needles?

Thank you,
Mr. Mason

Absolutely, Maneuvers are great for any purpose in any form. There are many builds designed around being say, a Jade Phoenix Mage, and using maneuvers while Polymorphed. I've seen an awesome Gestalt build with Druid and Swordsage. Kung-Fu Panda.

Unfortunately, most maneuvers are pretty close-range, melee based. I think there are some handbooks regarding what can be used at range, and there are one or two homebrew ranged disciplines, but you probably don't want to use homebrew.

In Sparrow form, I think Diamond Mind's Concentration-based maneuvers are ideal. Since you have such low Str, all you need to do is land a hit. Insightful Strike and its Greater version deal damage equal to your Concentration check, and Mind Over Body, Action Before Thought and Moment of Perfect Mind can be used an immediate actions to replace your Fort, Reflex, and Will saves with a Concentration check. Some Shadow Hand maneuvers are very good too, including some ability damage (Strength Draining Strike and Bloodletting Strike) and nonmagical 50 ft teleports in Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blink. Desert Wind might also be of use, since even though it's fire, it gives you some ranged options. Just steer clear of Stone Dragon, since you must be standing on the ground to use any of those maneuvers.

Also, you never answered, what level are you? Something to remember is that half of your non-initiator levels count toward your total initiator level, so you can get higher level maneuvers faster. For example, if you had four levels of Scout or Ninja or whatever, and then one level of Swordsage, your IL is (4/2+1)=3, which means you can choose from 2nd level maneuvers even at Swordsage level 1. If you have eight non-Swordsage levels, and then one level of Swordsage, you can pick from level 3 and down (as opposed to level 4, close to 5 from Swordsage 8). This is why martial adepts make great dips in high level melee builds.

[Urpriest]

Maneuvers work fine in alternate forms. Very few of them can be used with ranged weapons though.

In terms of getting an attack as a Sparrow, since you don't get any natural attacks (not even a Bite with which to wield Mouthpick weapons) you'll probably want to go for Improved Unarmed Strike to be a kung fu (or ninjutsu) bird.

Confound the Big Folk is a tactical feat from Races of the Wild that will allow you to treat a foe as flat-footed the round after you move into their space.

I seem to recall a feat that lets smaller characters hide when surrounded by larger characters, but I may be misremembering. You should consider picking up some form of Hide in Plain Sight. The Dark Creature template is probably the cheapest, and will let you Hide whenever the room is dark enough (20% concealment or worse essentially).

[Mr. Mason]

Oh! Sorry, I'll be level six.

For the feats, I'm loving Underfoot Combat and Confound the Big Folk. I'm torn as to which feat to snag for the last one -- Is it worth getting Darkstalker?

I'm afraid that I'll not be using ranged Needles as I had planned, it's just too feat intensive.

On the topic of unarmed strikes, I can get metallic claws for my talons and can peck. Should I grab a feat to increase this? Maybe Weapon finesse?

Finally, I won't really be able to hold things while in my transmogrified form. I have an idea about tattoos that increase stats... Is there any precedence for this? Also, Nettlekid had mentioned a two level dip into Totemist, will this be worth considering?

Once again, I value you time and effort into this matter! Thank you!

[Nettlekid]

Oh! Sorry, I'll be level six.

For the feats, I'm loving Underfoot Combat and Confound the Big Folk. I'm torn as to which feat to snag for the last one -- Is it worth getting Darkstalker?

I'm afraid that I'll not be using ranged Needles as I had planned, it's just too feat intensive.

On the topic of unarmed strikes, I can get metallic claws for my talons and can peck. Should I grab a feat to increase this? Maybe Weapon finesse?

Finally, I won't really be able to hold things while in my transmogrified form. I have an idea about tattoos that increase stats... Is there any precedence for this? Also, Nettlekid had mentioned a two level dip into Totemist, will this be worth considering?

Once again, I value you time and effort into this matter! Thank you!

Depends what you plan to be doing with your skills. Since you no longer require a flat-footed enemy to deal damage, it isn't IMPERATIVE that you are undetected, so Darkstalker isn't as necessary as before. Also, if you are detected, who suspects a sparrow?

Oh, one feat that's pretty essential to any Swordsage build is Adaptive Style. Swordsages have a notoriously bad refresh mechanic, they have to spend a full-round action to recover a single maneuver. With Adaptive Style, you can spend that same full-round action changing which maneuvers you have prepared, which also auto-refreshes them all. Swordsage still has the short end of the refresh stick, but that makes it a lot better.

Weapon Finesse is a good feat, but see if you can get a light weapon with the Feycraft template from the DMGII. It's a bit pricey, but basically gives you free Weapon Finesse with that weapon. Shadow Blade is also a good feat for a Swordsage, as when you are in a Shadow Hand Stance it will let you deal extra damage equal to your Dex, and counts as Weapon Finesse for prereqs and stuff, but only when using a dagger, short sword, sai, siangham, unarmed strike, or spiked chain. Fortunately, Unarmed Strike is on that list. Though of course, you can't get your Unarmed Strike Feycrafted, so you'd have to get Weapon Finesse there too, which leaves you a little feat-starved for Shadow Blade.

Don't take Totemist, it's not that useful for you anymore. It can be made good for stuff like Scout, which gets precision damage, but you're not doing that now. The only benefit that Soulmelds have is that they'll stay in shifted form. As for that...well, a couple of options. You could get your magic items unslotted for double the price, probably not worth it. There are some magic tattoos and stuff, like from Create Magic Tattoo, but they're short-lived and might get pricey. You could ask if a Wilding Clasp (which lets a Druid keep a piece of equipment when Wild Shaped) can apply to you too (DM's call, and it's also quite expensive.) Or maybe buy all your items sparrow-sized to begin with. Or maybe you won't even have to. Magic items tend to reshape to fit the wearer, so if you took your stuff off before you changed, then changed, then put them back on, they ~should~ reshape so long as the sparrow can wear them. See if you can get custom items for the same price that make more sense: Gloves of Dexterity probably won't work on a sparrow, but custom-made Arm/Leg Wraps of Dexterity might. (Alternatively, take a look at the Tibbit from Dragon Compendium, which is like a Halfling that can turn into a cat. It states that all its magic items change to make sense for a cat, like amulets turning into collars and boots turning into mitten things. Ask your DM if that can work for you too.)

This is my vote for your build: Ranger 1/Swashbuckler 1/Monk 2/Swordsage 2. Make heavy use of some alternate class features. With Ranger, I suggest you use the ACF in Complete Mage, Arcane Hunter, to get Favored Enemy against any creature that can cast arcane spells. Much more versatile than regular FE (but you will need to put one rank into Knowledge: Arcana, which is CC for you, but you'll have the skill points so it's okay.) Might as well take the variant Ranger from Unearthed Arcana, give up your Combat Styles (which you won't even get anyway) and get the Barbarian's +10 Fast Movement. It's unlikely that your DM will then let you switch THAT out for the Barbarian ACF Pounce, but you can try. Fast Movement will be useful to you anyway.
Swashbuckler 1 is there mainly for filler, because it gives +1 BAB and Weapon Finesse for free. I suppose that Fighter could do the same, but Swashbuckler is cooler than Fighter. Strangely, although you get Grace at level 2, there's an ACF in Complete Mage (right after Arcane Hunter) called Arcane Stunt, which it says you get at level 1, so you can get it! Costs you nothing (and Grace would have sucked anyway) and gain a nice little Swift action, one-round SLA 1+Int times per day.
Monk 2 is there for feats. Improved Unarmed Strike is something you want, and then the UA Variant fighting style allow you to choose feats you want for levels 1 and 2. I'm rather partial to keeping Stunning Fist, and Deflect Arrows is fun, but you could also nab Dodge and Mobility (good for prereqs), Weapon Finesse and Improved Initiative (in which case you might want to do something other than Swashbuckler before), as well as other options (http://dndtools.eu/classes/monk-variant-fighting-styles/). Monk 2 also gives you Evasion, which is nice and you could keep it, or you could drop it for an ACF from (funnily enough) Exemplars of Evil. There are two good ACFs there, Feign Death (totally pretend to be dead, fooling foes and making you immune to a bunch of stuff like mind-affecting things and poison), or the one I would pick which is Invisible Fist (Immediate action, turn invisible for a full round, usable once every three rounds. Good for getting out of there, or setting up to Hide.)
And finally, your Swordsage levels cap it off. You'll get Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike (and everything else in that Shadow Blade list I mentioned above)), and a nice Wis to AC bonus, like Monk. Funnily, although Monk and Swordsage Wis to AC don't stack, the Monk's applies when you're unarmored, and Swordsages applies only in light armor. So keep light armor on in non-sparrow form, and you'll have Wis to AC whenever!

As a result, the free feats you get are: Track, Weapon Finesse, Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), and two variable feats of your choice. That frees up some room for Adaptive Style and any of the size-based feats you wanted.

I also wanted you to have +4 BAB, because next level you can go into Warshaper, which is excellent for growing Natural Weapons. It's a very powerful PrC for shapechangers.

As for maneuvers, feel free to cherry-pick to your liking, but may I suggest:
1:Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Distracting Ember, Wolf Fang Strike
2:Shadow Jaunt, Emerald Razor, Burning Brand
Stances: Child of Shadow, Hunter's Sense

Sapphire Nightmare Blade is for a little extra damage, but mostly as prereq. Distracting Ember is a super useful utility maneuver because it summons an elemental for your turn! Good for flanking, either for yourself or ready an action to summon it for your Assassin ally. Wolf Fang Strike is nice for two hits in a standard action, but also mostly for prereqs. Shadow Jaunt is one of those awesome teleports, 50 ft as a standard action, WITHOUT MAGIC. Teleport out of AMF cells. Very handy. Emerald Razor allows you to make a touch attack, very useful for high AC foes (and good combined with Stunning Fist). Burning Brand is really quite important for you, because unless you take Underfoot Combat you'll provoke AoOs when you move into a foe's square to attack, but this gives you 5 ft reach so you don't have to. And makes you on fire, which is cool. I would have put Cloak of Deception in there, but Invisible Fist makes it unnecessary, unless you want a round and a turn of invisibility. Child of Shadow gives you a 20% miss chance as long as you're moving, which is very handy. And Hunter's Sense gives you Scent, which is useful for detecting enemies, and since you have Track from Ranger, you can use Scent to hunt down foes.

Wow, that all ended up being longer than I expected. But hopefully you found a least some of it useful!

[Mr. Mason]

WOW...

That... Looks like everything I wanted... plus tons of other (exceptionally cool) stuff!
THANK YOU! It honestly never would have occurred to me to do more than two of those things! I have never put together more than three classes! (including prcs) I appreciate everything you all have done for me! Because of you, Jack Sparrow will rise and rule the earth!:smallbiggrin:

[Nettlekid]

WOW...

That... Looks like everything I wanted... plus tons of other (exceptionally cool) stuff!
THANK YOU! It honestly never would have occurred to me to do more than two of those things! I have never put together more than three classes! (including prcs) I appreciate everything you all have done for me! Because of you, Jack Sparrow will rise and rule the earth!:smallbiggrin:

Hahaa, of course, I should have thought that having a Swashbuckler Sparrow gives way to all kinds of Pirates of the Caribbean jokes.

I'm still a little worried about your damage output though, since you did say you wanted this character to do lots of damage. As it stands, with Shadow Blade, in Sparrow form you only do 1+Dex (assuming that Shadow Blade kicks in after your damage is reduced by your negative Str modifier, otherwise you'll be doing Dex-4 damage per hit.) I think? Unless I've figured something wrong. That seems too low for the build, but this is more of a stealth and ambush build than a raw damage build. Sparrow form gives you excellent To Hit, especially with Weapon Finesse, but that Str penalty makes the damage suffer. Which is why your initial suggestion of Ninja was very good. Unfortunately, it's difficult to manage to pick up Assassin's Stance (2d6 Sneak Attack) without going a straight Swordsage 5 or spending a feat. I'm almost tempted to suggest a Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3 Daring Outlaw build, which would get 3d6 Sneak Attack and Int to damage, but not Dex unless you sprung for like three feats. The Tibbit that I mentioned makes a great Puss in Boots with that, using its two claws and a bite to attack three times, dealing 3d6+Int damage on each strike.

Ohh dear, I've just thought of another problem. Two key feats, Shadow Blade and Adaptive Style, can only be taken when you have Initiator Levels, and the only feat you get after that is at level 6, so you can't have both to start out with. I think I'd suggest Shadow Blade, since you're not really relying on maneuvers for damage, more like utility.

The more I think about it, it feels like you only ever get two out of three things. You can get Hengeyokai Sparrow form and good stealth/skill, but not a lot of damage. You can get Sparrow form and good (well, okay) damage, but be right in the middle of everything. Or get good stealth and damage, but not using your Sparrow form (which is a neat ability and a shame to let go to waste). The DFA Sparrow is pretty fun, breathing lines of fire all over the place. Or the Warlock Sparrow, shooting Eldritch Blasts with the benefit of that high Dex and high To-Hit size bonus.

[Mr. Mason]

I don't really care for DFAs for some unknown reason... But I love the idea of the Tibbet! For some the idea of becoming an animal appeals to me.

I like having high Int and Dex, as well. This seems great for damage, and the coolness factor is off the charts!

If the fighter is in front of the villain and I am in the same square, is he still flanked? Should I still get the Underfoot Combat and Confound the Big Folk? I can sneak attack if they're flatfooted, right?

How much would I lose from going Swordsage for a little while, from seven to ?

[Nettlekid]

I don't really care for DFAs for some unknown reason... But I love the idea of the Tibbet! For some the idea of becoming an animal appeals to me.

I like having high Int and Dex, as well. This seems great for damage, and the coolness factor is off the charts!

If the fighter is in front of the villain and I am in the same square, is he still flanked? Should I still get the Underfoot Combat and Confound the Big Folk? I can sneak attack if they're flatfooted, right?

How much would I lose from going Swordsage for a little while, from seven to ?

Well, let's see...To answer your questions briefly, I don't think that the foe is flanked if you're in the same square, but yes, you do get Sneak Attack if they're flat-footed.

However, I just looked at the prereqs for those useful Small-size feats, and Underfoot Combat/Confound the Big Folk both require 10 ranks in Tumble, which means you'd need to be level 7 or higher to take them. Giantbane requires 6 BAB, which is also likely out of your reach unless you were to take a full BAB class all the way through, which would make your character quite different than the skillful thing you seem to want.

Swordsage like, never makes a build suffer. I love Swordsage. Especially the very first level, since it grants a whopping six maneuvers, so if you take it at later levels you can get an influx of high level maneuvers. And there are some higher-level maneuvers like Shadow Blink and Rapid Counter that don't have maneuver prereqs, so you can pick those up and then use them to qualify for others of their same level. The best levels to be your first level of Swordsage is any level which is a multiple of four, plus one. So 5, 9, 13, 17. These are when your previous levels provide enough Initiator Level to open up a new level of maneuvers. For example, a Rogue 8/Swordsage 1 will count as a 5th level initiator (8/2+1), meaning that 3rd level maneuvers are available.

I'm trying to think of how to increase your damage output while keeping the character basically the same. Hmm...Three levels of Swashbuckler do add Int to damage, but I'm not sure if that's really worth it. Shadow Blade can add Dex to damage, but only if you're using one of the Shadow Hand weapons, which Unarmed Strike is but no natural attack is. Swordsage 4 also gives you Wis to damage, but only with strike maneuvers, and you'd want to full-attack as much as you can.

Well, let's see. Rouge 3/Swashbuckler 3 with Daring Outlaw gives you 3d6 Sneak Attack and Int to damage. If you also took Craven, that's 3d6+Int+your level right there. The pro is a good amount of damage, but the cons are that you don't have an effective way of using all your natural weapons (no Pounce), you don't have any Swordsage maneuvers, and you've yet to take a level in Warshaper so you can't pump up your natural weapons.

Barbarian 1/Swashbuckler 3/Warshaper 2 would give you Int to damage, Pounce so you can use all your natural weapons on a charge attack, the ability to grow tons of weapons (tentakitty!) and the combination of Rage and +4 Str and Con from Warshaper, totaling +8 Str and Con (or +8 Str, +4 Dex and Con with Ferocity, plus an extra attack). The downside is that you might have tons of attacks, but they won't do too much damage each (the Int to damage helps with that, but still) so any enemy with Damage Reduction ruins your day.

Um...Barbarian 1/Ranger 2/Swordsage 2/Warshaper 1 would give you Pounce, that Arcanist Favored Enemy, Track (with Scent, which is fun), and the Fangshield Ranger ACF from Champions of Valor can give you Multiattack (change -5 to -2 when using secondary natural attacks, which you will have many), some Swordsage maneuvers (poorly entered I'm afraid, you get 6 level 1s and a single level 2), and all the fun growing of many natural weapons, though it would only be next level that you get the +4 Str and Con. If you went Swordsage that next level instead, you'd get a 3rd level maneuver, which is also good. (Maybe put the Ranger or first Swordsage level first for the extra skill points).

Perhaps Swordsage 1/Ranger 2/Barbarian 1/Swashbuckler 1/Warshaper 1, because although you lose out on that one second level maneuver, it wouldn't have gotten too much out of it, and your purpose might be served better if you wait until level 8 to take the second Swordsage level, because then you can take a 3rd level stance like Assassin's Stance or Giant-Killing Stance. Swashbuckler 1 gives you the free Weapon Finesse and Arcane Stunt, but I don't think it would be worth it to go to 3.

Or Rogue 3/Ranger 2/Warshaper 1? For 2d6 Sneak Attack, that same Multiattack, and all those natural weapons. But a disturbing lack of Pounce, which isn't as good.

One problem you keep facing is your lack of reach. That's fixed for one round with Burning Brand (a level 2 maneuver), or for good with Warshaper 3 (extra 5ft reach). But since Giantbane or the Underfoot Combat line are out of your reach, it'll be a bit...difficult.

Hmm, this is tougher than I thought. A couple fewer levels and no one's power would be that high, so you could match up. A few more levels and we could really flesh this out. But this is a weird grey area.

[Urpriest]

I'm trying to think of how to increase your damage output while keeping the character basically the same. Hmm...Three levels of Swashbuckler do add Int to damage, but I'm not sure if that's really worth it. Shadow Blade can add Dex to damage, but only if you're using one of the Shadow Hand weapons, which Unarmed Strike is but no natural attack is. Swordsage 4 also gives you Wis to damage, but only with strike maneuvers, and you'd want to full-attack as much as you can.


Both of these issues really depend on the way the character is set up. Are these claw and beak extensions that the DM is homebrewing up enhancing the Sparrow's unarmed strike, or giving the Sparrow new natural attacks?

[Nettlekid]

Both of these issues really depend on the way the character is set up. Are these claw and beak extensions that the DM is homebrewing up enhancing the Sparrow's unarmed strike, or giving the Sparrow new natural attacks?

I think we've gone from Sparrow to Tibbit, with the two claws and a bite that cats have. Either that or Warshaper's grown natural weapons.

[Urpriest]

I think we've gone from Sparrow to Tibbit, with the two claws and a bite that cats have. Either that or Warshaper's grown natural weapons.

Ah ok, looks like I lost track...Sparrow is so much cooler though. :smalltongue:

[Nettlekid]

Ah ok, looks like I lost track...Sparrow is so much cooler though. :smalltongue:

Sparrow is very cool, that's true. But I dunno, Sparrow raining beams of death is a pretty good mental image, but karate master Sparrow, while cool in theory, doesn't match up all that well in practice. I've actually had experience with this, when a Warblade in our party was Baleful Polymophed into a small bird, and valiantly but ineffectively tried to peck at the Sorceress.

Tibbits can be made pretty cool with the whole Puss In Boots thing. I think what's imperative to being cool is that if you have an alternate form, that is your battle form. My friend who was a Were-Spider Drow first liked his humanoid form for being the killer, until he realized how cool his Hybrid form was, and used that all the time instead.

[Mr. Mason]

Maneuvers seem the best way to get that "ninja art" flavor, so I would love to include it somewhere.

I'm not at all worried about not matching up to the power level of the pcs; We have a fighter, (decent, a solid third in damage) a ranger who never hits, (actually in second place in the damage charts because of her pet- a blink cat) a healing only druid without an animal companion, the bard/assassin combo, and every now and then we get a rogue who doesn't really fight. (He mostly hides in the corners, and then jumps out to loot and get us through traps) We aren't really optimizers, and the DM has to step in and save us once every two or three sessions. So, even a semi-reliable way to get 2d6+Int would huge!

Warshaper... is amazing! So I'll need to take it asap.

Those feats were nice, but I'm sure I can find something else worth a slot -- Improved Natural Attack seems like a good choice.

[Fouredged Sword]

I don't think damage will be too much of a problem. Use the concentration for damage strikes with the vest that grants +20 to concentration checks 3/day.

[Nettlekid]

Maneuvers seem the best way to get that "ninja art" flavor, so I would love to include it somewhere.

I'm not at all worried about not matching up to the power level of the pcs; We have a fighter, (decent, a solid third in damage) a ranger who never hits, (actually in second place in the damage charts because of her pet- a blink cat) a healing only druid without an animal companion, the bard/assassin combo, and every now and then we get a rogue who doesn't really fight. (He mostly hides in the corners, and then jumps out to loot and get us through traps) We aren't really optimizers, and the DM has to step in and save us once every two or three sessions. So, even a semi-reliable way to get 2d6+Int would huge!

Warshaper... is amazing! So I'll need to take it asap.

Those feats were nice, but I'm sure I can find something else worth a slot -- Improved Natural Attack seems like a good choice.

Ah, okay...Let's see, since you've already got an Assassin and a Rogue then you don't really need another guy there Sneak Attacking, though if you take Island of Blades as your first level Swordsage stance your party will really appreciate it, because it makes any adjacent square count for flanking.

Yeah, okay then, if you took Swashbuckler 2/Swordsage 1/Swashbuckler +1/Swordsage +2 then you could get Int to damage, free Weapon Finesse, be in a position to take Adaptive Style, and get two level 2 maneuvers.

Alternatively, go straight Swordsage 6, or perhaps Ranger 2/Swordsage 4, to get 3rd level maneuvers. Two with the first suggestion, only one with the latter. Some ones you might like are Death Mark (strike the foe and make them explode with fire), Fan The Flames (throw a 6d6 damage ranged touch attack of fire), Insightful Strike (Use a Concentration check to determine damage, so your damage is basically 1d20+Con+9), Shadow Garrote (ranged touch attack deals 5d6 damage and maybe make them flat-footed, good for your Sneak Attacking allies), Strength Draining Strike (deal 4 Str damage, a save halves it), and Soaring Raptor Strike (Jump, get +4 to hit, and deal 6d6 extra damage to a larger foe). Some of those higher damage ranged touch attacks would be very good in Sparrow form (if you go back to Hengeyokai) since you have high Dex, high To-Hit, and your low Str is a non-issue. Something good about Swordsage 6 is that at Swordsage 5, you'll get a new stance, which can be level 3. Two good stances at that level are Assassin's Stance (2d6 sneak attack damage, and yes you can use that with stuff like Fan The Flames if it applies), and Giant-Killing Stance (+2 to attack and +4 to damage against larger foes.)

You know what? That sounds pretty good. Elegance in simplicity. Swordsage 6 gets you that wide variety of maneuvers (choose 7 1st level, 2 2nd level, 2 3rd level, and you can swap out one level 1 for a level 2 one at Swordsage level 4, so you'll end up with 6 1st level, 3 2nd level, 2 3rd level), three Stances (two of 1st level, one 3rd level), +2 Initiative, Weapon Focus for a large selection of weapons (those listed under associated weapons for any of Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon, or Tiger Claw on page 41), Wis to AC when wearing light armor (probably won't get much use), and Wis to damage when you use a damaging maneuver of a chosen school (perhaps Desert Wind or Shadow Hand, they look like they'll serve you well). Take Adaptive Style, Weapon Finesse, and perhaps Flyby Attack so you can swoop in, initiate a maneuver, and swoop out.

[Mr. Mason]

That seems great! I especially love the all the maneuvers, they'll really drive home the "Special Ninja Training" theme! And the Hengeyokai has always been the favorite -- Tibbet is a close second, but a Tibbet really cries out for a good Thrallherd build.

I cannot fully express how thankful I am for all you have done for me, I merely hope you understand how drastically you have helped me.

Thank you,
Mr. Mason

[Nettlekid]

That seems great! I especially love the all the maneuvers, they'll really drive home the "Special Ninja Training" theme! And the Hengeyokai has always been the favorite -- Tibbet is a close second, but a Tibbet really cries out for a good Thrallherd build.

I cannot fully express how thankful I am for all you have done for me, I merely hope you understand how drastically you have helped me.

Thank you,
Mr. Mason

Glad to help! I love taking a potentially non-optimized theme and trying to make it strong while retaining the cool qualities of the theme. I think my friends get tired of hearing me suggest feats or PrCs that would suit their character ideas. One friend of mine always goes straight base class (Scout, Warlock, Binder) and it makes me cringe that he doesn't want to PrC into, like, Knight of the Sacred Seal for Binder.

[Rubik]

What if you start out as hengeyokai 1 (or divine minion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a), which would give you a potentially better base race, better transformation mechanics, and better base stats in your animal form) factotum 3/totemist 2, with LA buyoff, then into swordsage 1. I think that would work rather nicely, especially if you started into warshaper interspersed with more swordsage.

Don't underestimate the power of inspiration points and soulmelds, y'know.