Clerics of demon lord and archfiends. Why?

[Jon_Dahl]

Demons lords and archfiends are not gods. They are not deities. They are powerful individuals, yes, but not divine beings.

Then why, oh why, do some game authors give them clerics? Is having a cult automatically synonymous to being able to grant spells? Isn't there enough gods already, with the hero-deities being able to grant spells too?

From the worshipper point of view, is being a demon lord, which is a very vague and unofficial title, which almost any demon is able to claim if he/she is simply able to keep up (and alive) with other demon lords (akin to warlords of LDCs), equal to being an established god?

When did all this "demon lords grant cleric spells" stuff begin anyway?

[Big Fau]

I believe it is explained that, at least for demons, worshiping a Demon Prince is the same thing as worshiping the Abyss (in FC1 the Abyss is explained to be more of an entity than a plane, and the rules for worshiping planes do exist).

Archdevils have a more complex method of granting spells: They are borrowing from deities that live in the Nine Hells, and supplement the missing portions with divine energy harvested from souls.

[Sith_Happens]

Even besides the above, a Cleric in most settings can just get their spells from their belief in the demon lord/archfiend in and of itself, even if the demon lord/archfiend does not grant the spells personally.

[Alleran]

The Abyss provides the spells, funneled through the demon lord.

[Jon_Dahl]

The Abyss provides the spells, funneled through the demon lord.

This is a reasonable explanation, but in that case does it really matter if you worship a demon lord? What about worshipping a single dretch? Considering how people play CN characters, it's a very likely choice.

[LordBlades]

This is a reasonable explanation, but in that case does not it really matter if you worship a demon lord? What about worshipping a single dretch? Considering how people play CN characters, it's a very likely choice.

It probably does. In any case, outside FR (which to my knowledge is the only official 3.5 setting where you can't worship an ideal), you can worship the left toe of a dead dretch if you feel like it and still get spells for worshiping an ideal.

[VariSami]

This is a reasonable explanation, but in that case does not it really matter if you worship a demon lord? What about worshipping a single dretch? Considering how people play CN characters, it's a very likely choice.

Well, it is possible but unlikely. I, however, will most definitely use that as the motif for a Xaositect the next time I run a Planescape game.

[Alleran]

This is a reasonable explanation, but in that case does not it really matter if you worship a demon lord? What about worshipping a single dretch? Considering how people play CN characters, it's a very likely choice.
Presumably the Abyss chooses not to funnel power through a dretch, and actively limits itself to demon lords when it's passing around the divine spells to cultists.

[Yora]

This is a reasonable explanation, but in that case does it really matter if you worship a demon lord? What about worshipping a single dretch? Considering how people play CN characters, it's a very likely choice.

Iä! Iä! Banjulhu fhtagn!

[SiuiS]

Demons lords and archfiends are not gods. They are not deities. They are powerful individuals, yes, but not divine beings.

Then why, oh why, do some game authors give them clerics? Is having a cult automatically synonymous to being able to grant spells? Isn't there enough gods already, with the hero-deities being able to grant spells too?

From the worshipper point of view, is being a demon lord, which is a very vague and unofficial title, which almost any demon is able to claim if he/she is simply able to keep up (and alive) with other demon lords (akin to warlords of LDCs), equal to being an established god?

When did all this "demon lords grant cleric spells" stuff begin anyway?

Source material: in pulp settings there were gods, and there were "dark gods and demons". A warlock is a creepy dude in robes who gets mystic powers by sacrificing babies to some evil entity which is not a god. An evil cleric can likewise be a creepy dude who gets mystic powers by sacrificing babies to dark powers. In such settings, there were no evil gods – how could there be? All gods are divine, which means holy, which means, so the line of thought goes, Right! "Gods of evil" don't have to be actual evil gods. They just have to be the creatures which slink trough the recesses of reality, and convince or inspire to worship the monstrous thrills which rampage against the world.

Mage: the Awakening handles this well enough, of all games. The major existential threat are the real and actual gods of reality, who are also colossal jerks. The good guys are all basically usurpers who steal trickles of power and seek to become gods themselves.


I believe it is explained that, at least for demons, worshiping a Demon Prince is the same thing as worshiping the Abyss (in FC1 the Abyss is explained to be more of an entity than a plane, and the rules for worshiping planes do exist).

Archdevils have a more complex method of granting spells: They are borrowing from deities that live in the Nine Hells, and supplement the missing portions with divine energy harvested from souls.

The fiendish codices are decidedly wrong (or covertly correct, I suppose?) on a lot of things. The fiendish codex I, for example, attributes a lot of Limbo's characteristics to the abyss. Is it apologist propaganda? Is it the secret mystic truth? The DM decides. But the FC I cannot and should not e taken at face value without careful thought. There's no actual need, for example, for any mechanic outside the PhB one which was further explained in BoVD; you revere a cause, and the fiend is just your mascot for that cause. A focus and symbol.


I mean, it's weird for the abyss and hell to have mechanisms unique to themselves when every other plane behaves homogeneously.

[Jon_Dahl]

I mean, it's weird for the abyss and hell to have mechanisms unique to themselves when every other plane behaves homogeneously.

Good post and I particularly highlight this last sentence. A very good point.

[NichG]

Rather than giving a conclusive answer, I think its more interesting to say something like 'Normally you have to be a deity to grant spells. The difference between a demon and a demon lord is that the demon lord figured out a particular trick or method that lets them fake it.' That particular trick, whatever it might be, then becomes the potential subject of adventures and mysteries.

[Fax Celestis]

Rather than giving a conclusive answer, I think its more interesting to say something like 'Normally you have to be a deity to grant spells. The difference between a demon and a demon lord is that the demon lord figured out a particular trick or method that lets them fake it.' That particular trick, whatever it might be, then becomes the potential subject of adventures and mysteries.

Except you don't need a deity, because you can be a cleric of an alignment.

The only way cleric spells make sense is if you treat them as an abstract: the cleric can cast spells because he believes he can cast spells. Without faith, the cleric is nothing (and isn't that really what it's about anyway?).

[Sith_Happens]

Except you don't need a deity, because you can be a cleric of an alignment.

The only way cleric spells make sense is if you treat them as an abstract: the cleric can cast spells because he believes he can cast spells. Without faith, the cleric is nothing (and isn't that really what it's about anyway?).

DON'T BELIEVE IN YOURSELF. BELIEVE IN THE ASMODEOUS WHO BELIEVES IN YOU!

[CRtwenty]

I mean, it's weird for the abyss and hell to have mechanisms unique to themselves when every other plane behaves homogeneously.

Well I'm sure if they'd released similar books for the other major outsider races we'd have learned all about the weird and unique traits of the other Planes as well. In my mind worshiping "The Abyss" and worshiping the ideal of "Chaotic Evil" is the exact same thing anyway so I don't see the big deal. As for Hell it's Asmodeus, being able to channel divine power without being a deity himself because of some fine print in a contract he wrote is the kind of stuff you'd expect from him.

[Eldan]

Yeah, that. The publishers, whether TSR or Wizards, just love covering the Abyss and Hell again and again. Pretty sure every other plane would have its metaphysical peculiarities too.

[Yuki Akuma]

Some Demon Lords and Archfiends have divine ranks.

Generally very low divine ranks. But high enough to grant spells to Clerics.

The others... well, yeah, Clerics just gain power from the Abyss/The Great Unknown and use the Demon Lord/Archfiend as a mascot.

[Xervous]

the rules for worshiping planes do exist

All Hail the 747
http://www.travelfox.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Boeing-747-8.jpg

On a more serious note, I for one dislike how many loaded terms are used for class names and other assorted things in Dungeons and Dragons. More often than not it causes confusion due to a word having multiple meanings in context, or having strong connotations from the prevailing cultures of the world.

[forsaken1111]

Presumably the Abyss chooses not to funnel power through a dretch, and actively limits itself to demon lords when it's passing around the divine spells to cultists.Or perhaps your worship elevates the Dretch? I've seen cosmologies which state that the power of worship and belief are what makes a being into a god. In this case it wouldn't truly be a divine being but that lowly Dretch could suddenly receive a power boost from the Abyss if he acquired a few hundred worshippers.

[Yuki Akuma]

Or perhaps your worship elevates the Dretch? I've seen cosmologies which state that the power of worship and belief are what makes a being into a god. In this case it wouldn't truly be a divine being but that lowly Dretch could suddenly receive a power boost from the Abyss if he acquired a few hundred worshippers.

If that was the case I'd expect said dretch to mutate into something less... dretch-like.

[forsaken1111]

If that was the case I'd expect said dretch to mutate into something less... dretch-like.

Indeed it might. I'm guessing it would depend on the circumstances which caused people to suddenly worship it.

[Big Fau]

If that was the case I'd expect said dretch to mutate into something less... dretch-like.

Actually this is mentioned in FC1 as well. Specifically with a Rutterkin being worshiped by a small tribe of goblins, although the Rutterkin doesn't change because of it.

Presumably you'd need a small city or something of equal population worshiping the demon for it to start changing form.

[123456789blaaa]

This is a reasonable explanation, but in that case does it really matter if you worship a demon lord? What about worshipping a single dretch? Considering how people play CN characters, it's a very likely choice.

Worshipping an actual powerful being like a demon lord gives you many allies with similar goals. Since what they're working towards is dicated by a single being, you can at least have an idea as to how you can benefit from them.

On the other hand, since something like a dretch is quite weak. There will only be a very small section of people worshipping it so you won't get as much help.

I would also say it's easier to worship something that is actually super powerful.

[forsaken1111]

Based on the overall fluff and cosmology of the default setting, one could make the case that its the Worship that causes the Divine, not that you must Worship a Divine to receive power.

Gods with no followers tend to die out as new ones ascend, for example. Enough worship could make a devil/demon into the next best thing to a god. The fact that you can worship Elder Evils and gain power that way as well underlines the point that one doesn't need to worship a divinity to receive power.