How would you rewrite the PHB?

[Just to Browse]

If you had the opportunity to republish the D&D 3.5 PHB with any previous classes, spells, feats, races, etcetera, what would you put in it?

Re-fluffing something is cool. So is saying "I'd need to write options [x] for this class." No need to put specifics out there.

There are 11 base classes, ~110 feats, ~700 spells. It would be nice if rewrites had similar amounts of text.

For me, Classes:
Warlock (sorcerer and half a wizard substitute, needs more invocations, refluff to sorcerer)
Ninja (rogue substitute, refluff)
Ranger, with additional paths for animal companions , wildshaping, and spellcasting, and the ability to take multiple paths.
Paladin, but written more similarly to the ranger, with a focus on smiting, riding, broadsword use, and holy magic
Factotum//bard without performance and less casting.
A truenamer that isn't terrible, as the other half a wizard substitute
A beast tamer, spirit binder, and/or summoner, primarily defined by their pet that advances as they do.
A fighter that grants bonus feats (because everybody loves them) and ridiculous physical prowess in the form of skills, capacity, awareness, speed boosts.
A warlock version of the cleric/healer, shooting light lasers and turning undead while casting friendly buff spells
A shaman/elementalist like DragoonWraith's invoker
A shadowcaster that runs similar to a truenamer.

I'd like to see the same number of spells and feats, but with probably more rules text. Each spell would be accessed at a different level by truenamers/shadowcasters, the gish classes, and at-will invokers. The +2/+2 skill feats would be gone, and replacements would go to more feat chains and adding high-level feats that were missing.

[erikun]

This is kind of a tricky question, because there are probably 3-4 entire different ways to play D&D3e with everything available. Cutting out things that would cause problems with one gameplay style would make some of the others not possible.

I think that, for what the designers originally had in mind - that is, something in theme of AD&D dungeon crawling - you'd probably be best off removing the T1/T2 classes and putting in the Adept. In other words:

Adept (with the Cleric's ability to spontaneously convert spell slots to Cure spells)
Barbarian
Bard
Fighter
Monk
Paladin
Ranger
Rogue

Also, removing any magic items that now cannot be created by the Adept/Bard and making them "minor artifacts" that can only be found, not purchased. I haven't played the game like this before, but I get a sense that it would present a much larger challenge, that encounters would be threatening, and that magic would be used creatively and as a last resort over first response to threats.



But if I was going to make the system? As in, if I was going to put together a PHB out of classes that I'd enjoy playing in the game?

I'd probably limit it to psionics, the Tome of Battle initiator classes, Factotum, Binder, Shadowcaster, and Warlock. I would preferably make some changes to how some things work, such as multiclassing a bit better and Shadowcaster into a workable form, but I think it would function quite well.

[Firechanter]

I'd _at least_ make the Tier System _official_, i.e. acknowledge in the book that not all classes are created equal, and advise that any party should not stretch over more than 2 or max 3 tiers.

But ideally, I'd use classes that were much more balanced to each other, around Tier 3.

For instance by reducing the spell progression from 9 to 7 spell levels. Most level 8 and 9 spells would simply get kicked.

Martial Adepts would be core classes.
Stuff like that.

[Alleran]

A couple of thoughts:

- Fighters no longer have the limit on Martial Stance and Martial Study feats and can spend all their bonus feats on them if they want. Alternately, replace Fighters with Warblades.
- Wizards get one magic school that they can use. No exceptions. No bonus spell slots for specialisation, either. (Yes, I know this doesn't fix the imbalance in terms of which schools are best, but it'll hopefully get things started.)
- Sorcerers gain the PF human favoured class bonus spells as standard.

[some guy]

Incorporate my own houserulles would be a given.

But mostly a lot of editing, for some things information is strewn around the place.

I would also include a 2-page spread of quick character generation (Call of Cthulhu has this, and it's almost the only page I use in-game). A picture of a character sheet and information what to write down where. Include references to other pages. Make it so I could create a level 1 character without looking to other pages (except gear, feats and spells).

[Jon_Dahl]

1. Add some powerful high-level fighter feats... Stuff that would make the fighter seem an intriguing (if limited) option when compared to casters.
2. I was a big fan of the ultra-broken Player's Option rules in 2e, so I'd like to add Custom Class. It would be an option to standard classes, but not superior, or vulnerable to powergaming. Careful balancing would be required...
3. Add Maul to weapons. A martial two-handed weapon. Not exotic.

[RMS Oceanic]

Magic: Instead of a Wizard, Have the Warmage, Necromancer, Beguiler etc, and similar mages for other branches of Magic, and then the Sorcerer as the jack of all trades.

[Amphetryon]

Were I of a Gamist bent? Legend.

Were I more Narrativist/Simulationist in nature? ACKS.

[Chronos]

I'd give all of the spells casting times, similar to what was seen in 2nd edition, so that there is a measurable interval between when you start casting and when you finish (so you can be disrupted at any point in between). I'd also make Concentration a lot harder, if not removing it entirely. Casters are a lot less overwhelming when they're not consistent.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Mundane classes would be boosted, and casters reduced in versatility (no more tier 1's, period, and spell changes to reduce the power of T2s)-- mostly by using homebrew rewrites, both mine and other people's.
The skill system would look a lot more like Pathfinder's.
I'd include actually useful feats, and organize them better: in addition to the one big table, I'd have a table for each class, listing their unique feats and feats they'd often want to take. (for example [smite], [divine], and mounted combat feats on the paladin's table)
I'd include magic items in the PHB... but I'd scale things so that they're not necessary for balance, and there aren't any +1 swords, headbands of +2 intellect, cloaks of resistance, or that trash. Weapons and armor would look more like the Specific Weapons and Armor lists, with rules for creating your own.
Combat would be simplified. I'd ditch all full-round actions, make combat maneuvers useful without needing feats, stuff like that.
I'd rewrite most spells, bringing things like polymorph down and boosting things like cone of cold.

[Chronos]

I'd include actually useful feats, and organize them better: in addition to the one big table, I'd have a table for each class, listing their unique feats and feats they'd often want to take. (for example [smite], [divine], and mounted combat feats on the paladin's table)
The danger of this would be that people would mix up the "feats a class would often want to take" with "class-unique feats". So you might get people arguing that a cleric isn't allowed to take Mounted Combat, because that's a paladin feat.

[DMVerdandi]

Change in experience point system. Each character has a vocation which allows them skills, proficiencies, bonus feats, cash, and a way to earn XP out of combat, through vocational XP.

-Warrior, Mage, And Expert as the basic classes.
2e esque version of multi-classing that allows one to mix two of the original classes, or all three for the Noble class.

-The warrior's main class abilities will be techniques. They are similar to maneuvers, but can be used in combos, linking techniques together for interesting effects and synergistic fighting.
The techniques will be bound in schools based on different types of combat and martial forms. Their techniques and combos quickly become insanely dangerous, not just one on one, but to whole crowds.


-Mages will have magic. Every mage chooses their school and tradition.
Schools are the type of magic that they conjure, and traditions are the casting methods that they have, which can be raw,vocal,somatic or focal. Increasing the amount of casting methods for one spell increases the relative power, and each spell shows the bonus for the progression one takes with adding more modes.
Sometimes a mage might cast a raw spell without any casting methods but the spells are cast at a much weaker level in comparison.


-Experts main focus is that of rolling bonus feats and vocational expertise. With the use of an expert, one's vocational bonuses maximize, and other vocations can be taken. Experts will also have a large amount of skill points reflecting the amount of skill and creativity they have as a class.


-Advanced classes bring in specialty concepts that either expand on or blend the powers of the base classes into a new strength.
A class like dreadnaught might be for a warrior progression, while warmage is a warrior/mage advanced progression.

-Curbing Damage inflation
-having save or dies, but in a balanced way.
-Spell resistance is a skill
-Expanding the weapons list. Age and culture based lists.\

-Not being greyhawk. A fantasy world that has dense population, high risks with monsters, and fantastic magi-technology (Not at all modernized gadgets, but more like floating cities, wells that never dry, ect.)

-Different base racial classes.
Human,
Elf(evolved, magical humans),

Gnome(also called dwarves or halflings based on who you are talking to but mostly Gnomes to differentiate from humans with dwarfism. Childlike, humanlike predatory creatures. Obsessed with status and wealth, they sometimes grow beards to their feet to prove how manly they are, even though they realize they look like little children with facial hair.)

Genasi(same)

Woah... Is this 4e??? (with certain very strong tweaks.)


EDIT: Stumbled across the perfect picture for the gnome on facebook.
TAKE MY MONEY NOW!!!
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1148978_667323909964480_512421754_n.jpg

[Grod_The_Giant]

The danger of this would be that people would mix up the "feats a class would often want to take" with "class-unique feats". So you might get people arguing that a cleric isn't allowed to take Mounted Combat, because that's a paladin feat.
You'd still have the normal giant-table-o'-feats, and requirements listed in both the table entry and in the text. I'm just trying to help simplify the whole feats issue, which is probably the most aggravating part of character creation.

[Hyena]

- All of core classes - gone
- Crusader, warblade, tweaked swordsage (make him actually good, maybe?)
- No more vancian casting, instead casters use power points just like psionics.
- Tone down magic items. In fact, why not get rid of them at all.
- Give every class talents, just like in Star Wars Saga Edition.

[Snowbluff]

See above for lapses in sanity.

If I am stuck with tweaking the base classes. Fighter can stay, but Barbarian and Monk are out. Paladin would be buffed to be sort of the Divine Bard (None of that Inquisitor crap.) Ranger would need tweaks to be less boring, including Full Animal Companion and Wildshaping.

Bard (with better healing spells), Warmage, Beguiler, Warlock (with tweaks so it can be better integrated), and Dread Necromancer would be included for spellcasters. ToB's Swordsage, and Crusader and Warblade, ToM's Binder, and MoI's Incarnate would be Included. Spellthief would also be a safe bet for the sneaky guy, along with factotum. Psychic warrior would get an entry, if it could fit.

I would nerf a few spells, but keep them usable and interesting. For example, Simulacrum (Beguilers) would be limited to creatures 2 HD below your HD, and would not have their traits halved. The spells cast by the creatures made would count as [Shadow], 80% real, and with your save DC for the will save.

Some skills would be consolidated, but I would not inflict the PF skill rules on anyone.

Magic items would be included, as would PairO'DiceLost's no-enhancement bonus rules.

Feats... um... I would increase the number of class specific feats, due to the superior variety in my edition of the PHB.

[Urpriest]

Some unholy combination of Legend with 3.5's multiclassing system and the Homebrew Monster Classes, hyperlinked to hell and back and packaged into a streamlined version of D&D Insider. With tutorial campaigns built in.

[elonin]

Better tiered classes advance slower using a system based on pathfinder.

[Waker]

Let's see.
Wizards- Vancian Casting. Rehaul the spell list though so it's not as bad.
Sorcerer- Power Point Casting. Give them more unique spells. Basically a Psion.
Cleric- Uses Invocations. Include many new ones.
Druid- Uses Binding to assume Nature Aspects.
Paladin/Ranger- Use Incarnate and Totemist influences respectively.
Monk- Swordsage stuff.
Fighter- Warblade stuff.
Rogue- Knick some stuff from Factotum, and maybe Ninja. Assassin stuff?
Bard- Truenaming
Barbarian- Steal some Crusader stuff, specifically Stone Dragon and Devote Spirit, plus Mettle and Delay Damage.

Everyone is unique, has some cool options without too much overlap. Wizards are still prepared casters. Sorcerers channel raw powers. Clerics are conduits for divine power. Druids embody nature. Paladins and Rangers are aided by Divine/Nature spirits. And so on.

[Just to Browse]

Combat would be simplified. I'd ditch all full-round actions, make combat maneuvers useful without needing feats, stuff like that.

Now this is something I've never heard or thought of before. Color me interested.

[Gnarnia]

Pull a lot of tome of battle stuff back into the baseline classes.

And fix the poor ranger class.

[Hyena]

See above for lapses in sanity.
I actually prefer the term "differently rational".

[Grod_The_Giant]

Now this is something I've never heard or thought of before. Color me interested.
It's something that I've toyed with a lot, but never really got all the way through. Combat Maneuvers are pretty easy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275629)to make more user-friendly: use Pathfinder's CMB/CMD for just about everything (but make CMD Str or Dex, not both), and eliminate the way that they all provoke AoO's if you don't have the feat. Make the improved maneuver feats give you a sizable, scaling boost to CMB for that specific maneuver. Cut size modifiers in half.

Dropping full attacks is harder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15051041). You could simply make all your iteratives on every attack-- and make them all at a -5 penalty, rather than the stepwise thing we have now-- or you could add some kind of BAB-based bonus damage to your single attack... which then requires you to rewrite any number of Rapid Shot type feats and class abilities. It's kind of a crapshoot.

[Snowbluff]

I actually prefer the term "differently rational".

To be fair, I liked your suggestions (I wasn't on board with switching everything from vancian). I was mostly referring to the people go are posting on the 3.5 forum with Legend advertisements and 4e based suggestions. They are far from helpful, and we all know why the 4e changes don't work.

Oh, and the Pathfinder changes. The ones out to destroy variety.

[TripleD]

Infographics. Lots and lots of infographics. The graphic design student in me cries a bit when it looks at at the walls of text and tables in each 3.5 book.

[Grayson01]

Change two weapon fighting benfits but keep prerequisite to perfect two weapon fighting (no longer epic). Add back in ambidextrous which would allow full strength bonuse for both hands. With the loss of greater two-weapon and improved Two-Weapon fighting. Add in feats to double power attack when fighting with two-weapons. And add in a feat that allows 1.5 damage with main hand (one of the hands if ambidextrous).

[Snowbluff]

Infographics. Lots and lots of infographics. The graphic design student in me cries a bit when it looks at at the walls of text and tables in each 3.5 book.

Would you mind giving an example, because you sound like the oncologist who think it's cancer.

[vasharanpaladin]

Gnomes are earth elementals. Fix this mistake that WotC refuses to, and everything else should fall into place. :smallfurious:

[Jurai]

Big long post.

Races

Humans- No change
Azurins- No change
Elves- Switch Con penalty to Strength.
Dwarves- No change
Gnomes- No change
Halflings- No change
Half-Orcs- Remove Int Penalty
Half-elves- Redo entirely.
Shifters- No change
Kalashtar- No change
Genasi- Redo entirely
Mechanatrices- No change
Goliaths- No LA
Killoren- No change
Darfellans- No change
Catfolk- No change


Classes

Bard- No change
Barbarian- Give Crusader's Steely Resolve and Damage Pool.
Binder- Needs a little work, perhaps a quicker Soul Guardian Progression.
Cleric- Give Smite instead of Turning (make turning a feat)
Druid- Swift Hunter
Duskblade- Quicker class feature progression all around, except spells
Monk- Yeah... Focus the snot out of this, perhaps have specialization paths, one for boxing (Flurry), one for meditation (Decisive Strike), one for mysticism (Sohei spells)
Swordsage- Good Base Attack.
Warblade- No change
Fighter- Pathfinder Fighter Here.
Sorcerer- No change
Incarnate- Bigger HD, better and more soulmelds
Warlock- No change, remove alignment restrictions.
Warmage- No change
Necromancer- Remove the Dread from the class name (BTW, any class with more than one word in it is a Prestige Class)
Beguiler- No change
Dragoon (Dragon Shaman)- Good Base Attack, Energy Damage, Type change at 15th level, wings at ninth, no changes otherwise.
Marshal- Give Draconic Auras.
Summoner- Conjuration style Warmage
Paladin- Soulmeld DC is Charisma based, Mount is optional, Fighter feats every four levels, Meldshaping as an Incarnate of your class level minus three.
Ranger- Soulmeld DC is Wisdom based, Animal Companion at first level, Fighter Feats every three levels, Meldshaping as an Totemist of your class level minus three.
Totemist- No change
Progression level- Initiator level rule also applies to Meldshaping, Psionics, Spellcasting, Binding, Invocations, Auras, Smiting, et cetera ad nauseam.


Feats- Pathfinder Progression, and also compile every feat ever published into it or a different book entirely, preventing duplicate printings, errata conflicts, and Cust Serv shenanigans.

Skills- Pathfinder style

Spells- Someone else can do this then run it by me. I've not played a Spellcaster to 9th level spells.

Equipment- Keep Magic Items as is. Put down stone solid rules for Magic Item Creation. Keep Materials in their own section in this chapter.

Combat- No change

Spells- No change

Glossary- Define every word that has alternate meanings or usages in D&D that appears in this book. And then don't subvert said definitions in later books.

[lsfreak]

Now this is something I've never heard or thought of before. Color me interested.

I like the idea of doing something similar, but rather than "simplifying combat," the goal is "give a variety of standard, move, and swift actions, that give mundanes non-boring options that don't require dedicated investment of resources to not suck." Simplification of combat in many areas, such as eliminating both AoOs and retaliation on options like disarming and bullrush, are incidental to that goal, and go hand-in-hand with complications in other areas (foremost, increasing the possible actions/combinations of actions a mundane character can make by giving them more than about three decent options).

[Just to Browse]

Would you mind giving an example, because you sound like the oncologist who think it's cancer.

Walls of text don't bother me as much, so I can't comment on specific things, but there are stretches in the PHB spell section going 20+ pages sans pictures. I can see it making one a sad panda. Pictures of spells would be awesome.

----

Jurai, you would have the longest player's handbook ever.

[Snowbluff]

Walls of text don't bother me as much, so I can't comment on specific things, but there are stretches in the PHB spell section going 20+ pages sans pictures. I can see it making one a sad panda. Pictures of spells would be awesome.


Well, he said infographics. This would mean they would have to provide insight into the mechanics of the game. That doesn't work out so much on a pen and paper RPG... and the complaint doesn't hold up when you actually read the book and see all of the infographics in the combat section.

Spell pictures would be nice, but the Spells section is the most rules dense, making placement of pictures trying.

[Just to Browse]

Ahhh I read "infographics" as just "graphics". That makes more sense.

[DR27]

Rewriting the PHB? The goal being to cram everything a (new) player needs to play into ~350 pages? Currently, the PBH focuses on helping you create a 1st level character, and the tools to level him up - and does a decent job of it. It has some of the rules that you need to play, and gives the rest to the DM in his own guide - which I think is a mistake. It fails to acknowledge the fact that players don't always start at level 1, and it's common to start somewhere higher. Magic items are explicitly intended for player use, but kept in a different book. I think those things need fixing.

As far as races go, I think the current options are OK, don't need major overhauls - they aren't really the biggest mechanical thing that makes PC's fun to play.

Classes however, aren't really all that great as it currently stands. I don't think that Tier 1 Power really belongs in the hands of players, and are actually story features, for the DM's use. Spells like Gate, Wish, Miracle, etc would definitely get moved to the DMG to prevent player abuse. Polymorph and co would be separated out into component spells - trollform, displacer form, dragonshape, etc. I'd totally switch casting to the recharge variant, it just makes more sense/prevents the 15 min workday.

Classes I'd like to see in the new PHB:
Barbarian: Gone - make rage a feat chain instead? Yes, I think I like that. I'm not sure I like the concept that you have to be a savage to hulk out, and the whole class is really a character concept. I subscribe to the Miko idea that a class isn't what makes you something. Same as she was a Monk/Paladin=Samurai, I think barbarians are wild, savage fighters. A class name doesn't make them barbarians.
1- Bard - it's pretty good as is, but the feats and ACFs that make it good need to become core.
2- Beguiler: the illusion/enchantment specialist
Cleric: is gone, Adepts become priests, Favored Soul takes over for the Cleric.
3- Crusader: is awesome, takes over for the Paladin
4- Dread Necromancer: the necromancer, duh
5- Druid: Their spellcasting is now as the Gleaner (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/gk7uKJeF296jRcx1NJw.html) - using the spontaneous all spells known method, move over to shapeshifting ACF instead, and keep their Animal Companion. I'm not married to these changes, the general idea is to keep a wilderness - focused shaman while getting it below T2.
6- Duskblade: People should be able to play decent Gishes in core.
7- Favored Soul: Replaces Cleric, remove enough of the broken spells to drop a Tier.
8- Fighter: I'd probably use Realms of Chaos' fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304446), I think the flexibility would bring it into line with other mid-tier characters that I think the PHB should be built around, and Dungeoncrasher becomes a feat chain.
9- Marshal: This retool (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186681) from oskar - I really like the idea of a martial buffer.
Monk: I don't want to pretend that it was here to begin with
Paladin: gone, Crusader is close enough
10- Ranger: adapt to be much, much more like Swift Hunters. They do damage, are outdoorsman skill-monkeys/bounty hunters. Keep the animal companion is my first instinct, but I'm not married to it.
11- Rogue: is replaced by the Factorum
12- Sentinel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13196296#post13196296): Excellent defender-type
13- Sorcerer: Becomes the generalist caster, removing enough of the broken spells to drop it a Tier.
14- Swordsage: Replaces the Monk
15- Warmage: Blaster-mage, could use a little buff, I like oskar's take (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131346)
16- Warblade: Needs no explanation

The OP wanted to keep 11 classes. These 15 cover pretty much all the bases; you have 6 Martial classes who can straight up fight, tank/heal, buff, or Gish. You have 5 that are casters covering healing, buffing, specializing in the main schools, and general casting. And finally, you have 4 skillful characters who cover main archetypes. Not sure how I would classify Druids - maybe they are skillful now, maybe they warrant cutting from the PHB, but they do have the versatility and flavor they need to be good T3 characters without too low a floor.

However, If I was in charge, the PHB wouldn't exist - it would be some sort of "Player's Guide Collection." One book for Races & Classes, one for Skills and Feats, one for Equipment and Magic Items, one for Spells & Maneuvers, and one for Rules. Thats right, 5 books, each short and sweet. Expensive and bad business, but w/e. DMG and MM as a Game Master package.

[Beleron]

I'd rewrite it in Draconian. Much cooler.