Breaking Bad

[Dumbledore lives]

So the new episode just came out, and may I say it sits right up their with the rest of the season in quality.

Damn Walt is scary, and a huge bastard. I mean seriously once Hank finds out he pretty much breaks down for a week just realizing what this seemingly mild mannered chemistry teacher really is. It's all perfectly in character too, and also highlights how much he has changed in the last year or so, especially after his incident in the hospital. I'm sure he's going to do something, I mean he has such a sense of justice that he has to tell someone but he can't without destroying Walt's family. It isn't an easy situation, and the only thing we know is that in a year Walter is still alive, though estranged.

I feel so bad for Jesse. I mean he's kind of been the punching bag since season 2, but it just never really lets up for him. He tries to do the right thing and it just doesn't work. He tries to get an honest answer out of Walt and gets nothing but obvious lies. I mean at this point he has close to nothing, and Hank knows that he is connected to Walt. There is little way this can end well, as I imagine Hank might just take his anger out on him, because he can't do anything to Walt without hurting people he loves. In general it's an awful situation.

[Kindablue]

"That's Voyager, yo!"

[Elhann]

I liked that Heisenberg, even for a small second, pretended to be Walt.
I liked Skyler for the first time in a loooong time. It's curious to see that Heisenberg's evil has such a different effect on Skyler and Jesse (poor, poor Jesse).

With the first scene, I sincerelly doubt the show ends well for ANY character.

Also, Schraderbräu.

[JustPlayItLoud]

This episode is just about the only thing we've been discussing at work the last couple days. Just wow. After waiting a year to see it, that was one intense hour of television. Hank dropping the garage door was a tense thirty seconds or so.

I honestly didn't expect a confrontation at that point. I figured Walt wouldn't mention the tracker at all. And I thought Hank would at most tell Walt something like "I know". It almost felt like Walt was calling Hank out. Maybe that explosion of rage was exactly what Walt wanted, to force Hank's hand and find out what he knows. It won't end well for Walt, but if he eventually goes down, it'll be guns blazing.

[Dumbledore lives]

It seems it is all coming apart.

Well this episode did not disappoint. I don't have much to say other than I am craving for more. That and I wonder if Jesse will talk. He hates Walt at this point, so the question becomes how much does he hate himself/how much is he willing to give to someone he hates. All told it will be an interesting couple of episodes.

[Thanqol]

Some of the greatest television of all time, right here.

I am still terrified by the chain of events that lead to Walter White having an assault rifle in the boot of his car.

[Elhann]

Some of the greatest television of all time, right here.

I am still terrified by the chain of events that lead to Walter White having an assault rifle in the boot of his car.

Heisenberg having an assault rifle in the boot of his car, on the other hand...
Walter White is long gone.

Other than that, I totally agree with Dumbledorelives. I want more. I don't care if Jesse spills the beans or not, if Skyler and Marie make peace (before something horrible happens to either or both of them)... MORE! MORE!

That, and I really, really, really hope the Czech-contact lady (Lydia?) ends really badly. Gus-badly . Heisenberg is pure evil, but at least he is honest -sort of- about it. Killing all those guys and going "Oh, I don't want to look"? Filthy hypocrite.

[Dienekes]

Heisenberg having an assault rifle in the boot of his car, on the other hand...
Walter White is long gone.

Other than that, I totally agree with Dumbledorelives. I want more. I don't care if Jesse spills the beans or not, if Skyler and Marie make peace (before something horrible happens to either or both of them)... MORE! MORE!

That, and I really, really, really hope the Czech-contact lady (Lydia?) ends really badly. Gus-badly . Heisenberg is pure evil, but at least he is honest -sort of- about it. Killing all those guys and going "Oh, I don't want to look"? Filthy hypocrite.

I wouldn't call her a hypocrite exactly, but she is weak. She has been weak the entire time we've seen her, though sometimes her reasoning is sound. But yeah, I want to see her go down in flames.

[Kindablue]

Aww, I think Todd and Lydia are cute together. I hope it's all picnics and rainbows for them from here on out. :smallsmile:

[JustPlayItLoud]

Some of the greatest television of all time, right here.

I am still terrified by the chain of events that lead to Walter White having an assault rifle in the boot of his car.

That's far more than a black rifle. It's an army general-purpose machine gun, an M60 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M60_machine_gun) to be precise. That's some pretty heavy ordnance and if it doesn't have a significant role to play, I'm going to be upset.

MOAR BREAKING BAD!

P.S.: And while I do like Todd, I'm perfectly fine with Lydia crashing and burning. Intelligent and resourceful, yes, but she's also weasely and unlikeable.

[pita]

There has to be a fan-made trailer for a romantic comedy starring Todd and Lydia.
I DEMAND IT.

[Kindablue]

There has to be a fan-made trailer for a romantic comedy starring Todd and Lydia.
I DEMAND IT.

There are a lot of fan trailers. This one's my favorite. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFjsOZDjnJA)

[Bounty Hunter]

Must...

Catch...up...

On...this...show...

[Dumbledore lives]

New episode. Just when I think the show can't get better.

The entire confession I was on the edge of my feet. First I thought Walt might actually do something decent but no, he prefers to continue to be a complete and utter bastard who is willing to ruin someone else to protect his own family. Mari was incredibly harsh but it's hard to disagree with her intentions, Walter needs to die, and we know he doesn't. He lives for at least another year.

Poor Jessie. I know he's done bad things, but Walter just kept abusing him and abusing him until there was so little left. I mean he was broken at the beginning of this episode what with Walt killing his father figure, twice. Next episode I"m sure will be even better, and I'm waiting with baited breath. I mean holy **** this is not going to end well.

[Avilan the Grey]

(Please disregard this post, if you want)

I have never seen the appeal of this show, nor Weeds or Orange Is The New Black.

They all seem to be shows that really only showcases that "all humans are evil and deserves to die" (at least to a degree; OITNB is the least horrible one so far, but it has also run the shortest). At least that is my conclusion after watching some episodes. I just don't see why it is entertaining to see people I hate do horrible things to other people.

Of course I am like Batman (in this specific aspect; I doubt I could throw a batarang to save my life): I do not tolerate bad people.

So basically, I am just wondering why the show is such a hit? What do people like about it?

[Dumbledore lives]

(Please disregard this post, if you want)

I have never seen the appeal of this show, nor Weeds or Orange Is The New Black.

They all seem to be shows that really only showcases that "all humans are evil and deserves to die" (at least to a degree; OITNB is the least horrible one so far, but it has also run the shortest). At least that is my conclusion after watching some episodes. I just don't see why it is entertaining to see people I hate do horrible things to other people.

Of course I am like Batman (in this specific aspect; I doubt I could throw a batarang to save my life): I do not tolerate bad people.

So basically, I am just wondering why the show is such a hit? What do people like about it?

Well part of it is that people like villains. Most popular character in any number of fictions is the big bad. Even on this forum both Xykon and Belkar have huge fanbases, and they are awful people. Admittedly there are good people in those too so it's a bit of a different situation but some of the same stuff applies. It's also the transition, especially in Breaking Bad. The main character starts off prideful and does a bad thing, but he tries to make up for it. Then he starts the slippery slope and it never quite gets better. It's the same as Dexter I guess, people want to see him get his comeuppance, and it will not be good and it will not be quick.

The other reason, specifically for Breaking Bad, is that it is so damn well put together. The cinematography, the acting, the music or lack thereof, just about everything about it reeks of quality. There is a reason that the current season has the highest rating on Metacritic of anything ever. It is also extremely well plotted, scripted, and really everything about it just comes together, especially in this final season. I hope that answers your question somewhat.

[JustPlayItLoud]

(Please disregard this post, if you want)

I have never seen the appeal of this show, nor Weeds or Orange Is The New Black.

They all seem to be shows that really only showcases that "all humans are evil and deserves to die" (at least to a degree; OITNB is the least horrible one so far, but it has also run the shortest). At least that is my conclusion after watching some episodes. I just don't see why it is entertaining to see people I hate do horrible things to other people.

Of course I am like Batman (in this specific aspect; I doubt I could throw a batarang to save my life): I do not tolerate bad people.

So basically, I am just wondering why the show is such a hit? What do people like about it?

The thing I don't understand is ignoring a good story because you object to the fictional activities of fictional people. Walt's transformation is some of the best written character development I've ever encountered in television or other media. His slide from mild-mannered to teacher to Magnificent Bastard is so compelling that I'm more than willing to ignore the whole meth empire. Not that it bothers me that much to begin with. He probably isn't nearly as bad as some of the people he's put down. The former drug kingpin was almost terrifyingly jovial while also being a soulless monster. At least Walt still has a shred of humanity, if almost imperceptibly small.

That and some of us think Batman is boring and doing more harm than good.


New episode. Just when I think the show can't get better.

The entire confession I was on the edge of my feet. First I thought Walt might actually do something decent but no, he prefers to continue to be a complete and utter bastard who is willing to ruin someone else to protect his own family. Mari was incredibly harsh but it's hard to disagree with her intentions, Walter needs to die, and we know he doesn't. He lives for at least another year.

Poor Jessie. I know he's done bad things, but Walter just kept abusing him and abusing him until there was so little left. I mean he was broken at the beginning of this episode what with Walt killing his father figure, twice. Next episode I"m sure will be even better, and I'm waiting with baited breath. I mean holy **** this is not going to end well.

During the confession I was literally on the edge of my seat with my mouth hanging open. I definitely could not have seen that coming. Definitely the most heartless thing he's done so far. One of the most heartless anyhow. After the last couple of weeks were a bit subdued (at least in comparison to the mid season opener) this was a heavy episode. When the end credits rolled I wanted to scream at the TV for leaving me hanging.

[Avilan the Grey]

The thing I don't understand is ignoring a good story because you object to the fictional activities of fictional people. .

I have had this very discussion with a friend of mine. I care far more about characters and subject than the story in itself.

He enjoys a well written story, no matter the subject, while I... can't. I much, much rather read or watch a mediocre story about a subject I care about, than a very well-written story about a subject I find abhorrent.


Well part of it is that people like villains. Most popular character in any number of fictions is the big bad. Even on this forum both Xykon and Belkar have huge fanbases, and they are awful people..

Oh I love a good villain. Providing he gets raped by Karma by the end of the story. I love Ursula and Scar, and cheered when they died. I thought Liam Neeson played a very good Ras, and again, I was overjoyed when he died.

[Dienekes]

I have had this very discussion with a friend of mine. I care far more about characters and subject than the story in itself.

He enjoys a well written story, no matter the subject, while I... can't. I much, much rather read or watch a mediocre story about a subject I care about, than a very well-written story about a subject I find abhorrent.

Oh I love a good villain. Providing he gets raped by Karma by the end of the story. I love Ursula and Scar, and cheered when they died. I thought Liam Neeson played a very good Ras, and again, I was overjoyed when he died.

Ehh, the implication of this last season is that Karma is hitting/going to hit Walt rather heavily.

Personally, I don't believe in Karma, at all really. And while I do enjoy a good comeuppance it's hardly the most important part of a story for me. I also really enjoy characters as well, but they don't have to be good, or bad. So long as they're interesting, and in general, villains are more interesting. They're the ones that (normally) get the plot going. The Emperor does evil so the heroes to take him down. The thug murders someone thus the heroes take vengeance (though they call it justice for some reason).

As to why this show is so good, it's because Walt wasn't evil in the beginning. Actually in the beginning he was a pretty decent guy in a tough situation trying to do the best he could. But his journey, and his actions have clearly changed him to the worst. Now if it was just an evil guy doing evil things, well, it'd be the Sopranos which is also amazing, but this is not that show. There are legitimate good guys (Hank), and at first we liked Walt and were drawn into his story and his problems, then he took the steps to evil, and became one of the best villain protagonists in history.

[Yora]

Also, Schraderbräu.

Are there actually many Germans living in New Mexico? Schrader is a German name, as is Schwarz. Also Beneke and Merkert, which I've seen on a cast list (might be minor characters, though).

I started watching the first season a week ago, and it really suprised me. I was wondering how they would keep up 5 seasons with such a simple premise, but it seems to be all about characters and atmosphere rather than the actual narrative. Really quite a pleasant suprise.
I'm now somewhere in the second season, and while it's still really good, I kind of liked the earliest episodes better. I really liked the initial situation with Walt being completely out of place among the criminals and seemingly not quite sure what he's doing anyway. But he seems to have gotten entirely comfortable with being a hardass drug producer very quickly and bullies Jessie around like he has been doing that to people all his life. He started out as a likeable guy who somehow drifted into something illegal without really knowing what he's dealing with. But come season 2, he's just a professional drug criminal.

And so far, season 2 has not nearly enough Hank! :smallbiggrin:
Since he got his trophy from Tuco, he just lost his funnyness. As is entirely understandable and makes him seem like a better person. I hope he's getting better once he's settled in into his new role.
But given that I just watched the Turtle Scene, that's probably still quite a bit in the future.

And regarding Tortuga: Duuuude!!! That's just so wrong! :smallbiggrin:

[Avilan the Grey]

Ehh, the implication of this last season is that Karma is hitting/going to hit Walt rather heavily.

Personally, I don't believe in Karma, at all really. And while I do enjoy a good comeuppance it's hardly the most important part of a story for me. I also really enjoy characters as well, but they don't have to be good, or bad. So long as they're interesting, and in general, villains are more interesting. They're the ones that (normally) get the plot going. The Emperor does evil so the heroes to take him down. The thug murders someone thus the heroes take vengeance (though they call it justice for some reason).

As to why this show is so good, it's because Walt wasn't evil in the beginning. Actually in the beginning he was a pretty decent guy in a tough situation trying to do the best he could. But his journey, and his actions have clearly changed him to the worst. Now if it was just an evil guy doing evil things, well, it'd be the Sopranos which is also amazing, but this is not that show. There are legitimate good guys (Hank), and at first we liked Walt and were drawn into his story and his problems, then he took the steps to evil, and became one of the best villain protagonists in history.

And I am completely uninterested in his journey. He is scum, vermin, and should be put down. End of story. I don't care how he ended up in the situation, there is no excuse. Just like Weeds. Yeah, you cared so much about your family that you made a deliberate decision to become a bad parent, a bad person and ruin every chance your kids have to grow up normally. Go die.

[thorgrim29]

Well Walt always was kind of a jackass. Several times in the series (especially early on) he was given an honourable way out but refused because of pride.

[Elhann]

Just when you thought Heisenberg couldn't fall any lower...

The confession had me on the edge of the seat, too. And I can't really tell if it is good or bad that Jesse passed the punching-bag role to Saul in the way it went. Certainly the credits got me "What? NOW? More, give me more!"
Breaking bad is to TV series what Heisenberg's meth is to quality poison.

Avilan, the thing is that you shouldn't worry about why other people find these series great. You don't like vilain-centred series, and this is the story of a "sorta-evil, for a good cause", extremely meek and subdued guy, turning into a horrible, horrible person just for his pride, who may or may not end badly.
Not only he is Evil with a capital E (I guess he got to be both the bitch and the butch), but he is a corrupting influence on everyone he touches. From Jesse to Skyler, with all the small characters in between, including Hank. All of them were better people at the start of the series.
You don't like villains who win (and that is to be seen yet), it is only normal you don't get why people love this series.
But then, if you love Scar (and I agree with you on this), would you love him any less if he hadn't died? Thus, if Heisenberg is a good character (and he IS), isn't he a good character whether he lives or dies? As long as the way he wins or loses is well done, and the story makes sense?

[Avilan the Grey]

But then, if you love Scar (and I agree with you on this), would you love him any less if he hadn't died? Thus, if Heisenberg is a good character (and he IS), isn't he a good character whether he lives or dies? As long as the way he wins or loses is well done, and the story makes sense?

Of course I would (like him less). And above all I would like the MOVIE less. As I said, the story, for me, is less important than the subject, or plot.

Besides, stories where the Bad Guys aren't punished in the end are pointless, since that is Real Life (tm).

[Yora]

There are characters you like and there's characters you love to hate. The enjoyment of the character does not come from liking his personalty, but from admiring the writing and acting that went into making that character. I've only seen about 10 or so episodes yet, and most of the characters who seemed quite nice at first are already really quite unlikable. There's nobody to root for and also not really a narrative to follow.
I mostly like the show because of the acting, directing, and editing. It's not a great story on an intelectual level and the characters aren't likeable. But it's very enjoyable to see people at work who really know their craft of making a TV show.
It's more like admiring an ugly car for the solutions the engineers created to solve engineering problems.

[Elhann]

Of course I would (like him less). And above all I would like the MOVIE less. As I said, the story, for me, is less important than the subject, or plot.
I think Scar surviving would have made the movie worse, but I don't see how his survival would have made the character worse.

As I said before, if the triumph of the hero is what you value most in a piece of fiction, then it's not strange that you don't like BB. Because the protagonist is as far as one can be of being a hero.

It is not a bad thing, there are people who like apples, and people who like pears. Even people who don't like fruit at all.

If you were asking what do other people see in the series:
It is a great story, even if the protagonist is evil.
The characters are believable, and evolve during the series.
The acting is, for the most part, excelent. At the very least, it is extremely efficient.

Those are three excelent points to watch a series.


Besides, stories where the Bad Guys aren't punished in the end are pointless, since that is Real Life (tm).
I fail to see how that is a bad thing. But then, we don't know if Heisenberg will be punished at the end. The start of the last season seems to imply that he is not "winning". The end of this last episode heavily implies that for now, he is losing his house
Anyway, as I said, apples, pears.

[Dienekes]

Of course I would (like him less). And above all I would like the MOVIE less. As I said, the story, for me, is less important than the subject, or plot.

Besides, stories where the Bad Guys aren't punished in the end are pointless, since that is Real Life (tm).

As someone who enjoys real life, plans to be a historian studying real life, and find that a lot of fantastically interesting people lived in real life, I fail to see how that is a problem.

But then, I have never cared about morals in my stories. I am an adult, I know the difference between right and wrong and I have my own code of conduct that I try to maintain. I don't need every story to follow my ethics, I have enough strength of character to know what they're doing is evil and not follow their example. None of my ethics are hindered, harmed, or offended by enjoying a good villain story.

Though honestly the weirdest part to me is the implication that you can only enjoy a character after the story is concluded.

[The Unborne]

Of course I would (like him less). And above all I would like the MOVIE less. As I said, the story, for me, is less important than the subject, or plot.

Besides, stories where the Bad Guys aren't punished in the end are pointless, since that is Real Life (tm).

You...do realize you're preferring the story more than the characters when you say you'd like a character less if a certain resolution does not happen to him, right?

[Avilan the Grey]

You...do realize you're preferring the story more than the characters when you say you'd like a character less if a certain resolution does not happen to him, right?

Apples and oranges. I am talking about the character TYPE, aka I don't like characters that are evil.
(Which is not entirely true, but they have to be evil in the right way for me to click).


As someone who enjoys real life, plans to be a historian studying real life, and find that a lot of fantastically interesting people lived in real life, I fail to see how that is a problem.

If I watch Fiction, I want it to be a place to escape to. Not relive the news of the day.


But then, I have never cared about morals in my stories. I am an adult, I know the difference between right and wrong and I have my own code of conduct that I try to maintain. I don't need every story to follow my ethics, I have enough strength of character to know what they're doing is evil and not follow their example. None of my ethics are hindered, harmed, or offended by enjoying a good villain story.

Apples and oranges again. I don't think that the moral tar pit these characters live hinders my own ethics or morals.
But they do hinder my enjoyment of a story, since I cannot enjoy these type of characters as protagonists.


Though honestly the weirdest part to me is the implication that you can only enjoy a character after the story is concluded.

Which obviously isn't true.

[T-O-E]

Confession spoilers
Making that video must have devastated Walt. His pride is probably the most defining aspect of his personality --which has always been there, it hasn't developed so much as manifested-- and his confession presents him as still being a fundamentally weak person (even a commodity to be sold from Hank to Gus), giving the credit for everything he's done to someone else.

I can't imagine he'd want anyone other than Hank and Marie to see that video. It's a bluff.

[Maelstrom]

Confession spoilers
Making that video must have devastated Walt. His pride is probably the most defining aspect of his personality --which has always been there, it hasn't developed so much as manifested-- and his confession presents him as still being a fundamentally weak person (even a commodity to be sold from Hank to Gus), giving the credit for everything he's done to someone else.

I can't imagine he'd want anyone other than Hank and Marie to see that video. It's a bluff.


I'm not sure it devastated him -- he's gotten to the point where he's achieved a near perfect Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde personality split. He's compartmentalized Walter White and Heisenberg to the point where Walter White is yet just another tool in his PsyOps arsenal.


Talk about a show ending in it's peak. I'm glad to see writers have finally realized what viewers are wanting to see. No need to string along the cash cow to the point where any early success is eclipsed by the endless dregs thrown at us just to keep a show on the air (yes, looking at you Simpsons, South Park, CSI's, etc)

@Yora
Plenty of German-blooded folk all over the US, Names like Schroeder, Bauer, Bergman, etc are all very common. As for direct German immigrants in Arizona/New Mexico/American Southwest, I did not notice an abnormal amount when I was stationed in Ft Huachuca (south of Tucson) -- the climate there is about as opposite as you'll get from Germany, though, even up in the mountains

[zlefin]

From my point of view, walter was always a bad person, he just wasn't doing anything actively bad earlier in his life because it never come up.
A good person turning bad can be interesting, but I don't think this is such a case, he turned far too bad far too quickly for it to be a plausible case of that. He's more like the many high functioning sociopaths that often get by just fine in society who decided to stop doing reasonable things.

[Yora]

I got the impression that Walter was always a bad person but too timid to ever do anything mean.
I'm just into the second season and there are some scenes early on where he says he was always afraid of the world until he got cancer and no longer cared what would happen to him. Which is why he's not happy at all when he gets better, because he doesn't want to worry again and be responsible. He prefers to be able to do what he wants to without having to think of any possible consequences.
And pretty much right from the start, when they don't make as much money as he hoped to, he doesn't get doubts or gets disappointed, he just shouts at Jesse to stop slouching and work harder. And when Gus asks him why they have to keep Jesse around at all, the answer is "Because he does what I say. Because I trust him". In that order.
Jesse doesn't cooperate because they trust each other. Walter is sure he won't betray him because he got him completely under controll. And I think he doesn't care about Jesses health when he doesn't want to give him his money until he is clean of heroin. It's because the heroin makes Jesse unreliable.

--

Woaooo...!!! Near the end of season 2.

Did Walter just straight of murder that heroin-girlfriend? That he made her roll on her back was an accident, but when he saw she started to choke he got up to do something but then just stepped back to watch it happen.
And I think it was the start of the very first episode where he explained to Marie that he baby needs to lie on the side because exactly that same thing could kill her. Which not only helps the audience who might not know about heroin to know what's happening, but also shows straight up that Walter knew exactly what he would have to do to save her. Even if she could still have died from heroin poisoning or whatever, Walter is clearly a smart enough guy to know that just moving her on her side would have been the best shot.
But instead he just waited it out. Looks like murder to me.

Also, a perfect murder, since nobody would ever suspect that it was murder at all.

And for the motive. See the previous part of my post. Jesses heroin use was a problem for Walts opperation and the girlfriend threatened to break the control he had over Jesse. Krazy 8 could still be called an act of self defense (though just calling the police and turning himself in would have solved that problem as well). But this was just straight up murdering an innocent bystander because she interfered with his opperation.

[T-O-E]

Walter wasn't originally timid. If you rewatch the flashbacks to when he was still working at Gray Matter and when he was buying his house, he's actually pretty warm and confident. I think his decision to leave Gray Matter was based on something trivial that hurt Walt's pride, which has always been a massive part of him. The Walt in episode 1 is timid because he is humiliated by what he sees as his failure. He hasn't been humbled by the experience and his resentment symbolically manifests as his cancer, which he must manifest to purge himself.

[Elhann]

@ Yora, regarding your spoiler.

I'd say your interpretation is absolutely right.

Also, my earlier Schraderbräu comment was because I found it a funny detail in a series with black humour at best. Hank is the most moral character, and also provides the fun. Yay!

[Yora]

Maybe most moral, but he's still a ****. :smallamused:

Though as the show goes, a loveable one.

Another character I strangely like for no explainable reason is Skinny Pete. No idea why, but I love it every time he has a scene, man!

[Dumbledore lives]

Well, another new episode. I don't have much to say that I haven't said before, other than the finale better be amazing. I'm sure it will be given the quality up to this point, but my god am I gearing up for a huge disappointment if something goes wrong. Also, article relevant (http://entertainment.time.com/2013/08/01/dead-tree-alert-its-not-breaking-bads-job-to-punish-walter-white/) to the issue we were discussing before about bad people and punishment.

[Elhann]

...Hank is the most moral character...
You know, I'd like to change this statement. Am I too late?

Other than that, this episode seemed "transitional" to me. Not bad at all, but more promising things (Todd's uncle) than giving them.

[Yora]

Still at the start of season 4, but the statment was "most". In regard to all the other characters. That doesn't have to be much.

[Dumbledore lives]

God damn, you can't end an episode like that. Last episode was a bit disappointing, but this, this is exactly what I've been waiting for the entirety of season five.

[Elhann]

Hoooooooly... :smalleek:

EDIT: The last scene strains my suspension of disbelief a little too much. A-team shooting skills? First time I'm disappointed with this series.

(Saw it coming since the "do NOT come" line, but still)

[Yora]

Pretty much every episode has the most exciting point just at the ending.
And then the next episode doesn't immediately show you what happens and usually it turns out to be nothing big anyway.

[The Unborne]

Walt...your deception touches my heart.

[Dienekes]

Well, that was awesome.

[Kaulguard]

Oh I love a good villain. Providing he gets raped by Karma by the end of the story. I love Ursula and Scar, and cheered when they died. I thought Liam Neeson played a very good Ras, and again, I was overjoyed when he died.

After tonight's episode, I think we can fairly say the karma raping has commenced. What a gut wrenching hour of television. I think I'm having a heart attack.

[Dumbledore lives]

And everything comes tumbling down. I don't know if I can keep this up for two more episodes, every single scene is so damn tense.

[JustPlayItLoud]

There are no words for what I feel right now. Just no words. I don't even...

[Avilan the Grey]

After tonight's episode, I think we can fairly say the karma raping has commenced. What a gut wrenching hour of television. I think I'm having a heart attack.

From what I can tell from ending spoilers and synopsis from this episode, Karma has not, and will not, punish Walt even remotely for what he has done and the kind of person he is.
Seems to me he deserves far FAR worse.

[Dumbledore lives]

From what I can tell from ending spoilers and synopsis from this episode, Karma has not, and will not, punish Walt even remotely for what he has done and the kind of person he is.
Seems to me he deserves far FAR worse.

Worse than losing everything? He has lost his wife, his son and his daughter and killed his brother in law. He also lost to a neo-nazi, hurting his pride as well. He literally bought a reset of life because he had nothing left. That seems as much as could happen. The final episodes might see him die, but honestly for him he pretty much already has.

[Avilan the Grey]

Worse than losing everything? He has lost his wife, his son and his daughter and killed his brother in law. He also lost to a neo-nazi, hurting his pride as well. He literally bought a reset of life because he had nothing left. That seems as much as could happen. The final episodes might see him die, but honestly for him he pretty much already has.

And killing his brother in law (if that is indeed true), is on HIS head, not a punishment AGAINST him. It INCREASES his debt to Karma, not the other way around.
Also, losing his family? They shold have left him immediately, episode 1. He does not deserve them.

Pride? who cares about his pride. Why shold he deserve anything to be proud of?

As for death...
As far as I understand it from Ending spoilers, he will get into witness protection. So so much for Karma hunting him down.

[Dumbledore lives]

And killing his brother in law (if that is indeed true), is on HIS head, not a punishment AGAINST him. It INCREASES his debt to Karma, not the other way around.
Also, losing his family? They shold have left him immediately, episode 1. He does not deserve them.

Pride? who cares about his pride. Why shold he deserve anything to be proud of?

As for death...
As far as I understand it from Ending spoilers, he will get into witness protection. So so much for Karma hunting him down.


I feel like there is no point in arguing here. I think what happened to him is just about the worst thing that can happen to anyone, maybe third worst. I feel it is sufficient punishment. He is still a terrible person and one of his final actions was betraying Jesse, someone he said was like a son, which is utterly reprehensible. It's also not exactly witness protection but getting new papers so he can pretend to live a new life. It's similar I suppose, just not legal and everyone will know what he is. In the end it will not end well for him, and has gone horribly as he created a meth empire and saw it crumble before him. 'Nothing besides remains'.

[Elhann]

From what I can tell from ending spoilers and synopsis from this episode, Karma has not, and will not, punish Walt even remotely for what he has done and the kind of person he is.
Seems to me he deserves far FAR worse.

From what I guess from your posts, you are not following the series, nor are you inclined to enjoy it. Spoilers are NOT enough to judge anything: I'd agree with dumbledorelives: as of 5x14, Walt has lost pretty much everything. I don't know which kind of karma rape do you expect, but the truth is, I don't want to know.
He has lost his health, which was shaky at the start of the series, but a returning cancer? yeah, not good.
He has lost the reason he started his descent to darkness, as there is no way Skyler can forgive him for abducting Holly. And there is no way in that hot place with the sulfur that Marie harbord anything but burning hatred for his guts. Not only that, he is in no position to protect them if Uncle Jack comes calling. Or if charges are pressed against Skyler...
He has lost Jesse. And he has burned pretty much every bridge that would lead to Jesse's forgiveness.
He has lost his pride. Yeah, losing his money to a redneck, nazi thug is nice for a guy like Heisenberg.
He has even lost his money! All this trip, and what does he have? Not even half of what he made!

[Kindablue]

Aww, I think Jesse is about to break up Toddia. :smallfrown:

[Yora]

So I just finished season 4.

That whole Gus and Hector thing, that was smart.

But that flower pot?

Walter, you're an evil, evil genius. :smallamused:

[Elhann]

So I just finished season 4.

That whole Gus and Hector thing, that was smart.

But that flower pot?

Walter, you're an evil, evil genius. :smallamused:

To me, the best part of that episode (which is, IMHO, the best season finale of any TV show I can remember), is the simple beauty in "What did you do?" "I won".

Heisenberg (Walter? who's that?) is not only an evil genius, but he get's very nice one-liners. "I'm the danger", "I'm the one who knocks"... and still, nothing compares to "I won"

[Yora]

When he killed the last henchman to free Jesse, and again on the roof, I expected his first words to be "Wanna cook?".

I also think shoting that henchman was the first time Walter simply ambushed a man and shot him dead without trying anything to work out the situation. All the other cases I remember him kiling someone were attempt at self-defence, emergencies, or at least situations in which he was conflicted about what course of action to take whether he lets a person live or die.
But in that case, just stepping around the corner and a bullet between the eyes. And I kind of think it was entirely on purpose that the show doesn't make a big deal about that moment either. It has no buildup and then it's immediately to the next moment where he talks with Jesse. Killing someone isn't a major moment for Walter anymore, just something done in passing to not waste another thought on.

Another great moment was that speech by Sauls secretary, a background character who barely had a single sentence during the entire show. "You and your partner are in danger? Because you did something idiotic? How is that news?"

I just think that special effects shot with the death scene at the end was stupid. Really not neccessary at all.

[Avilan the Grey]

From what I guess from your posts, you are not following the series, nor are you inclined to enjoy it. Spoilers are NOT enough to judge anything: I'd agree with dumbledorelives: as of 5x14, Walt has lost pretty much everything. I don't know which kind of karma rape do you expect, but the truth is, I don't want to know.
He has lost his health, which was shaky at the start of the series, but a returning cancer? yeah, not good.
He has lost the reason he started his descent to darkness, as there is no way Skyler can forgive him for abducting Holly. And there is no way in that hot place with the sulfur that Marie harbord anything but burning hatred for his guts. Not only that, he is in no position to protect them if Uncle Jack comes calling. Or if charges are pressed against Skyler...
He has lost Jesse. And he has burned pretty much every bridge that would lead to Jesse's forgiveness.
He has lost his pride. Yeah, losing his money to a redneck, nazi thug is nice for a guy like Heisenberg.
He has even lost his money! All this trip, and what does he have? Not even half of what he made!

I still don't get why descents into darkness is so fascinating to people. Right now there are three shows that (on hugely different scales) deals with the same idea: Breaking Bad, Weeds and Orange Is The New Black.

And I just sit here and shake my head... WHAT is so interesting with people doing moronic choices that betrays everything good in their lives is entertaining, yet enough interesting?

[Dienekes]

I still don't get why descents into darkness is so fascinating to people. Right now there are three shows that (on hugely different scales) deals with the same idea: Breaking Bad, Weeds and Orange Is The New Black.

And I just sit here and shake my head... WHAT is so interesting with people doing moronic choices that betrays everything good in their lives is entertaining, yet enough interesting?

Cause mostly their decisions aren't moronic. Do not confuse moral with intelligent or evil with stupid. Actually, many of Walters decisions have been intelligent means to his goal, admittedly with some risk. It's also worth noting if he had died when he thought he was going to die he would have been completely successful.

The reason I find it interesting is because (and of the three you listed the only one I actually like is Breaking Bad, though I also like Boardwalk Empire which was not on your list), the characters tend to be more dynamic and engaging than your generic hero. A start of darkness story takes the premise of a likeable enough chap and asks what makes them turn evil. The very premise requires the character to go through some rather dynamic changes as the story progresses. That and, as a general rule of thumb, villains get the best lines and have the most fun. A show that revels in that fact can be quite entertaining.

And for the people with a little bit of an immorality streak in them, watching a genius plan go down is entertaining. Take Yora's post above, Walter is an evil genius. If you can respect that intelligence even while admitting it's evil the story will throw you for loops and pull you in. You just need to see this as just a story. These people aren't real, you are not actually rooting for a mass murdering sociopath, so there's no need to get all self-righteous about it.

For the record, the same question can be asked in reverse. Why are we as a culture so interested in good guys doing good things? I'm willing to bet a lot of money that there are far more shows on tv about the good guys.

[Avilan the Grey]

Cause mostly their decisions aren't moronic. Do not confuse moral with intelligent or evil with stupid. Actually, many of Walters decisions have been intelligent means to his goal, admittedly with some risk. It's also worth noting if he had died when he thought he was going to die he would have been completely successful.

The reason I find it interesting is because (and of the three you listed the only one I actually like is Breaking Bad, though I also like Boardwalk Empire which was not on your list), the characters tend to be more dynamic and engaging than your generic hero. A start of darkness story takes the premise of a likeable enough chap and asks what makes them turn evil. The very premise requires the character to go through some rather dynamic changes as the story progresses. That and, as a general rule of thumb, villains get the best lines and have the most fun. A show that revels in that fact can be quite entertaining.

And for the people with a little bit of an immorality streak in them, watching a genius plan go down is entertaining. Take Yora's post above, Walter is an evil genius. If you can respect that intelligence even while admitting it's evil the story will throw you for loops and pull you in. You just need to see this as just a story. These people aren't real, you are not actually rooting for a mass murdering sociopath, so there's no need to get all self-righteous about it.

For the record, the same question can be asked in reverse. Why are we as a culture so interested in good guys doing good things? I'm willing to bet a lot of money that there are far more shows on tv about the good guys.

BUt that is exactly what I am wondering... WHY is it interesting to see a good person turn bad? It's both depressing, and nothing special, since that is what usually happens IRL.

And no, the decisions has not been intelligent. The premise, the FIRST decision, is the moronic one:

To save the family by betraying everyone and everything within that family. That IS a moronic decision.

[Yora]

Personally I think the show was most interesting at the start and slowly but continuously went down from there. The most interesting part is the writing for the lead character and the performance of the actor. Normally, the writing could easily lead to a character who is just erratic and acts randomly, but the way the man pulls it of, it seems at least to me that the character is acting very consistent and you can anticipate exactly what he's thinking when he is making his important descisions.
He does dumb things, but even before he does them, you can already see it comming because you can get a pretty good idea how he reacts to certain things.

Like when Jesse says that finally someone is seeing something in him and he's getting some respect, Walter interrupts him and says that this doesn't really have anything to do with Jesse, but is only part of a plan to make Jesse a tool to use against him. "This isn't about you at all! This is all about me!"
And Jesse just takes a breath and walks away without saying a word, because such things are exactly what he expects from Walter and there isn't any sense in even trying to reply anything to that. And when the audience follows each episode, so do they.

It's not OMG! Incredibly show! Best thing on TV evar!
But it's really quite good when compared to most TV shows I've seen.
The plot isn't great, but I enjoy it seeing actors and dialog writers at their work, showing that they really know their craft.

[Avilan the Grey]

When it comes to Weeds there is also the marketing dissonance. At least in Europe all the trailers and ad spots for the show makes it seems like this oddball dramady / sitcom mix with a really really really sexy MILF that loses her job and starts selling pot in her back yard.

While the show itself went very dark fairly quickly.

[Dienekes]

BUt that is exactly what I am wondering... WHY is it interesting to see a good person turn bad? It's both depressing, and nothing special, since that is what usually happens IRL.

And no, the decisions has not been intelligent. The premise, the FIRST decision, is the moronic one:

To save the family by betraying everyone and everything within that family. That IS a moronic decision.

Name a way he could support his family in 6 months. His priorities are different than yours, that's not moronic, that's just a different rationalization. Hell, if I knew I was going to die in 6 months, had a family to support and had the savvy I'd break a few laws myself.

And I answered that. A dynamic character with the best lines, who is actually creating the plot instead of just reacting to them.

And why is good people doing good interesting? It also happens in real life. And good people turning bad doesn't depress me especially when you're fictional. A good story needs a good villain, this one has the the good villain as the main character. Giving the (generally) most interesting character of the story center stage.

[Avilan the Grey]

Name a way he could support his family in 6 months. His priorities are different than yours, that's not moronic, that's just a different rationalization. Hell, if I knew I was going to die in 6 months, had a family to support and had the savvy I'd break a few laws myself.

And I answered that. A dynamic character with the best lines, who is actually creating the plot instead of just reacting to them.

And why is good people doing good interesting? It also happens in real life. And good people turning bad doesn't depress me especially when you're fictional. A good story needs a good villain, this one has the the good villain as the main character. Giving the (generally) most interesting character of the story center stage.

Oh I don't know... Sell something? As in the business, the house, or something else?
Let the family consolidate their options, and come to the conclusion that this or that has to be done? Like normal people? Move to another state, if necessary.

And I don't care how dynamic he is, if I cannot stand him. Just shoot him and get on with it. He is vermin and should be treated as such.

I. Can't. Handle. Villains. As. Main. Characters.

They do not deserve the limelight. It's as easy as that.

[Elhann]

Oh I don't know... Sell something? As in the business, the house, or something else?
And then, which story would we have? Not to mention, Skyler WAS selling things (getting the awesome sum of 9 bucks), if he sells the house, where does he get to live? what about his pregnant wife? What about his son?
Also, which business? he was a chemistry teacher and worked in a car wash to get some extra money.*


Let the family consolidate their options, and come to the conclusion that this or that has to be done? Like normal people? Move to another state, if necessary.
Which options? They had an option*, accepting money from Walt's old partner. But then, Walt is TOO proud (that's a defining characteristic of the character) to accept it. That, and "Walter was sick, but he got money from an acquaintance, so he got better" wouldn't make any story worth a TV series.


And I don't care how dynamic he is, if I cannot stand him. Just shoot him and get on with it. He is vermin and should be treated as such.

I. Can't. Handle. Villains. As. Main. Characters.

They do not deserve the limelight. It's as easy as that.
Your opinion. Fine.
But if that's your opinion, and there is no way we can change your mind from "I hate villain-centric stories", why are you asking what other people see in this series? Other people MAY enjoy the story because it's simply well done. Even if the protagonist is vermin.

*This two points make me wonder whether you dislike the show from first-hand experience. I'm curious now, so please indulge me: Have you actually watched the show?

[Goosefeather]

BUt that is exactly what I am wondering... WHY is it interesting to see a good person turn bad? It's both depressing, and nothing special, since that is what usually happens IRL.


a) Because tragedy is still art, and it engages us emotionally and intellectually in ways that comedy (in the 'happy ending' sense, not the 'hahaha' sense) cannot.

b) If fiction only ever featured things that didn't happen IRL, it would have no role beyond wish-fulfilment and escapism. For fiction to be able to say anything about real life, for it to have any effect, any lesson, any moral, it has to engage with real life rather than ignoring it. It has to tackle real life issues and concerns such as moral ambiguity, the lack of a guaranteed happy ending, and protagonist downfalls like that of Breaking Bad.


Out of curiosity, do your views on characters like Walter White prevent you from appreciating a work like Macbeth?

[Avilan the Grey]

Out of curiosity, do your views on characters like Walter White prevent you from appreciating a work like Macbeth?

Not really a Shakespeare person to begin with... But yes, I do not find it all that entertaining (unlike his comedies).

[Dienekes]

Not really a Shakespeare person to begin with... But yes, I do not find it all that entertaining (unlike his comedies).

And here's the kicker. His only comedy I really like is midsummers night dream. Macbeth, othello, king Lear are all far more entertaining to me.

So for the question I've asked you twice now, why should I care for the boring hero? In general, his character is less interesting than villains, the choices he makes are less thought provoking, the moral he gives is the same naive crap we heard a thousand times before, and he never gets the best lines and scenes.

As to what could Walt have done. Yeah he could sell their house, and spend all their money on his hospital bills then he dies and his family is broke, homeless, and with little job experience. Sure they will survive, but can you really not see a man willing to damn himself so his family has a better life than that is anything other than a moron? From listening to my father, every parent wants a better life for their kids. For mine that meant working 12 hours a day at a couple jobs he was overqualified for. Walt seems to have been doing something similar until his impending death destroyed that little dream.

[Avilan the Grey]

And here's the kicker. His only comedy I really like is midsummers night dream. Macbeth, othello, king Lear are all far more entertaining to me.

So for the question I've asked you twice now, why should I care for the boring hero? In general, his character is less interesting than villains, the choices he makes are less thought provoking, the moral he gives is the same naive crap we heard a thousand times before, and he never gets the best lines and scenes.

As to what could Walt have done. Yeah he could sell their house, and spend all their money on his hospital bills then he dies and his family is broke, homeless, and with little job experience. Sure they will survive, but can you really not see a man willing to damn himself so his family has a better life than that is anything other than a moron? From listening to my father, every parent wants a better life for their kids. For mine that meant working 12 hours a day at a couple jobs he was overqualified for. Walt seems to have been doing something similar until his impending death destroyed that little dream.

I don't care. Villains are more interesting, because they are evil, and therefore do evil stuff. Which after a while, for me, becomes "Yawn, look he is doing crap for the Evulz again".

And yes, he should have. What he did instead caused far FAR worse damage to his family, aka it was the moronic decision. He is a moron, and an immoral moron at that.

As for the last part... yes, you are theoretically correct. But turning to a life of hardcore crime "to protect" your family is not the right thing to do. Or a good thing to do. It is he morally repugnant, ethically bankrupt and intellectually moronic thing to do.

If my wife turned to crime to save our family, I would call the swedish version of the FBI within 5 minutes and divorce her within 10. No matter the consequences. Because that is the morally right thing to do.

[Goosefeather]

I don't care. Villains are more interesting, because they are evil, and therefore do evil stuff. Which after a while, for me, becomes "Yawn, look he is doing crap for the Evulz again".

And yes, he should have. What he did instead caused far FAR worse damage to his family, aka it was the moronic decision. He is a moron, and an immoral moron at that.

You say that with the benefit of hindsight. It's perfectly possible to make a decision that isn't moronic and yet has ultimately negative consequences. People do bad things for good reasons, sometimes. Other times, they do bad things for reasons that they think are good, but in reality are less so. It's interesting to explore this, and it makes for good television.

Moreover, if you'd seen the series you'd know that we're not talking one decision, we're talking a long series of them. Walter doesn't instantly transform from 'family man' to 'master criminal', it's the result of multiple events taking place over 5 seasons.

In fact, it's precisely this slide down the slippery slope that contributes to making BB such compelling viewing. Almost everyone starts off identifying with Walt - he's the protagonist, he's sympathetic at this point, he's in a terrible position. As the series progresses, there's a tension between your initial sympathy for the character and the increasingly morally dubious decisions he makes, and it's fascinating to see what constitutes the 'breaking point' for different viewers, the point at which you stop siding with Walt and start siding with Hank.



As for the last part... yes, you are theoretically correct. But turning to a life of hardcore crime "to protect" your family is not the right thing to do. Or a good thing to do. It is he morally repugnant, ethically bankrupt and intellectually moronic thing to do.

If my wife turned to crime to save our family, I would call the swedish version of the FBI within 5 minutes and divorce her within 10. No matter the consequences. Because that is the morally right thing to do.

Well, bully for you, but that would make for a rather dull and anticlimactic 10 minutes of television. Also, people are not perfect, and "doing the right thing, consequences be damned" is not always as easy as you make it out to be - the vast majority of people don't think in terms of black and white morality. Apart from anything else, sometimes the consequences are worse than the initial situation.

Again, had you seen the series, you'd know that Walt's wife does kick him out and try to divorce him - she only doesn't report him to the authorities because it would destroy her son and ruin her brother-in-law to do so. The tension between 'turning him in' and 'protecting innocent family members' provides a lot of drama, not to mention moral ambiguity as to which is truly the better option.

[VanBuren]

To not appreciate Breaking Bad. Or to not love MacBeth... I think I'd find your tastes pretty lacking.

And that's completely fine.

Because there are a lot of shows out there. And not everyone is going to like all of them. I'm sure there are shows that you love that I would hate. But those shows don't require my liking them to have merit. Nor does Breaking Bad require yours.

I guess what I'm saying is that I would ask you to respect that our tastes have just as much merit as yours, even if you can't personally understand them.

[Avilan the Grey]

You say that with the benefit of hindsight. It's perfectly possible to make a decision that isn't moronic and yet has ultimately negative consequences. People do bad things for good reasons, sometimes. Other times, they do bad things for reasons that they think are good, but in reality are less so. It's interesting to explore this, and it makes for good television.

Moreover, if you'd seen the series you'd know that we're not talking one decision, we're talking a long series of them. Walter doesn't instantly transform from 'family man' to 'master criminal', it's the result of multiple events taking place over 5 seasons.

In fact, it's precisely this slide down the slippery slope that contributes to making BB such compelling viewing. Almost everyone starts off identifying with Walt - he's the protagonist, he's sympathetic at this point, he's in a terrible position. As the series progresses, there's a tension between your initial sympathy for the character and the increasingly morally dubious decisions he makes, and it's fascinating to see what constitutes the 'breaking point' for different viewers, the point at which you stop siding with Walt and start siding with Hank.

Well, bully for you, but that would make for a rather dull and anticlimactic 10 minutes of television. Also, people are not perfect, and "doing the right thing, consequences be damned" is not always as easy as you make it out to be - the vast majority of people don't think in terms of black and white morality. Apart from anything else, sometimes the consequences are worse than the initial situation.

Again, had you seen the series, you'd know that Walt's wife does kick him out and try to divorce him - she only doesn't report him to the authorities because it would destroy her son and ruin her brother-in-law to do so. The tension between 'turning him in' and 'protecting innocent family members' provides a lot of drama, not to mention moral ambiguity as to which is truly the better option.

I don't know about you, but to me it's not a slippery slope or an "initially not a moronic decision".

He. Starts. A. Meth. Lab.

Anyone who sells Meth is either stupid, a drug addict or pure evil. Meth is one of the most vile substances known to man, and there is NO "slippery slope" here. He might as well have cut out the middle man and murder children for money, which basically is what he is doing.

I buy the whole scenario you try to paint above if he, for example, used the car wash to store fenced goods. But not this. Does not compute.

And yes, obviously it makes for good TV, since it is hailed as the FIRST coming of Christ. It is officially the best TV drama in TV history, according to at least 90% of the entire world's critics, and even more viewers.

I just don't understand why. Other than the trainwreck aspect, I see no reason to watch it.

As for the "not instantly transforming"... See above. I don't consider him a "master criminal" at all, I consider him either a COMPLETE moron, or a despicable individual already from the start.
Again, you do not choose to manufacture and sell meth if you are not completely morally bankrupt, or a meth addict.

And why would I side with a child murderer at all? (all Meth manufactures are. It's what they do after all, and they know it). This is the core of the problem for me, why on earth would I side with Walt AT ALL, at any point? Does not compute!

As for "dull TV series". Yeah, nice argument. You are basically admitting that without Walt holding BOTH the Villain Ball AND the Idiot Ball, the series would not have happened. That is not "an interesting ride", that is lousy writing.

I never argued that reality isn't grey, I am the first one to argue that IRL life is Grey and Gray morality most of the time.
However, there are such things as red lines. When you cross them, it does not become black and white (except in very very few instances), but it shifts from Grey and Gray, to Black and Gray.

If anyone in my family would start producing Meth, or become a hitman for the mob, or a child porno producer, I would not only call him or her on it, I would make DAMN sure they would be locked away for a LONG time.

Oh and anyone, family member or not, that works with Walt deserves to be treated as Walt.


To not appreciate Breaking Bad. Or to not love MacBeth... I think I'd find your tastes pretty lacking.

And that's completely fine.

Because there are a lot of shows out there. And not everyone is going to like all of them. I'm sure there are shows that you love that I would hate. But those shows don't require my liking them to have merit. Nor does Breaking Bad require yours.

I guess what I'm saying is that I would ask you to respect that our tastes have just as much merit as yours, even if you can't personally understand them.

Well thank you for cosidering my tastes lacking. :smalltongue::smallamused:
Oh I respect your taste. I just don't understand it, as I said. To be fair though, I don't really have any shows I like; I am not good with Drama at all.

The last "serious" drama series I actually paid any real attention to was ER.

I don't have HBO, so I never watched Rome.

Sopranos suffer from the same "let's spend several seasons follow villains being excused for being villains" as Breaking Bad, so I stopped watching that very quickly.

Trueblood is about vampires, so no, I don't watch that.

Prison Break... I stopped watching that when they got greedy and decided to ruin the concept by expanding it past the mini series it was supposed to be...

OZ? Don't get me started...

And so on and so forth.

Now, Dramadies... that's a different matter.
I LOVE MASH, of course.
I adore Gilmore Girls, Modern Family and I am one of the few that really loved 4400 Penn.

But yes, most of the time my TV consumption is: Sitcoms, news, documentaries and NFL.

[The Unborne]

Snip

Well the show presents other reasons to manufacture meth. In fact, the last episode has a character chained up and forced to cook the product at the threat of his love interest and her son. It's basically a symbol for how there can be people who do not have a choice. Instead, outside influences force them into their roles as villains.

[Avilan the Grey]

Well the show presents other reasons to manufacture meth. In fact, the last episode has a character chained up and forced to cook the product at the threat of his love interest and her son. It's basically a symbol for how there can be people who do not have a choice. Instead, outside influences force them into their roles as villains.

But not Walt.
And putting someone at a literal gun point is not a valid example.

And yes, there are circumstances people can become "villains". But part of my argument above is that the people in this series don't have to become villains. If you are stranded in the wilderness and the only way you can survive is to eat your friend... Sure.

And again, the person being forced at gunpoint to make Meth is not automatically a villain for making meth.

[Yora]

I saw a couple of comments that a lot of the Spannish in Breaking Bad was supposedly quite bad, but I never noticed a thing.

Now I've come to season five, and I can confirm that at least the German is actually that bad. :smallbiggrin:

Interestingly, most of the lines in German so far are spoken by characters who are not seen, such as on the phone or shouting through a closed door, which makes me suspect they just had it recorded elsewhere and added in later.
At least most of the voices sound like they are people who are actually somewhat fluent in German, though as a second language.
Lydia on the other hand has no idea what the words from her mouth actually mean. Well, half the time I don't have an idea what they mean when there are no subtitles. :smallamused:

[Elhann]

I saw a couple of comments that a lot of the Spannish in Breaking Bad was supposedly quite bad, but I never noticed a thing.
It is not Heroes-level bad*, but when you're supposed to be a native Spanish speaker, you should sound better than Gus.
Hank or Walter having an accent when speaking Spanish is perfectly understandable, but Gus (Chilean) should speak better, especially in flashbacks (in the present, it could be justified as being out of practice)

*Maya's "Alejandro, por favor" makes me cringe. And that particular character was supposed to speak just Spanish.

[Yora]

I know caught up with the current episode. Do we know what time it takes place? I think season 5 starts on Walts 51st birthday and the flash forward scenes from two episode openings are on his 52nd birthday.
For how long is he gone?

The future view of the house actually looks like it's been deserted for way more than just a year, but that's probably just an artistic choice to make it obvious that it has been empty for a long time.

[VanBuren]

I know caught up with the current episode. Do we know what time it takes place? I think season 5 starts on Walts 51st birthday and the flash forward scenes from two episode openings are on his 52nd birthday.
For how long is he gone?

The future view of the house actually looks like it's been deserted for way more than just a year, but that's probably just an artistic choice to make it obvious that it has been empty for a long time.

Season 5A ends with a timeskip of a few months, and season 5B picks up immediately after that and with Ozymandias takes places over what's probably a week at the most.

That still leaves something around 6-7 months before the flashforwards start.

[VanBuren]

One of the things I love about this show is the way it makes the audience not just reconsider it's opinions and sympathies as things progress, but do so retroactively. Walt was always a pretty awful person. He was pathologically prideful, vain and spiteful. But he never really had the power to do real harm with those emotions (at least not to anyone other than himself) because he's been ground down by the consequences of his poor decisions and has just sort of accepted his place in life. Early on his pride seems almost noble in a twisted way. This is a man who would literally rather die a slow, painful, undignified death than accept help from a couple he believed wronged him. It's only later on that we see just how much of a petty control freak he really is and his earlier behaviour flips in our minds from defiant and sympathetic to destructive and malicious.

At the same time, Season1 Walt would probably be disgusted by, or at least bewildered by Season 5 Heisenberg. Certainly those core traits were always there from the beginning, but I think that lack of opportunity isn't the only thing separating them.

...

Or maybe it is. It's only been a little less than a year and a half, after all.

[Raistlin1040]

SnipThe reason Walt goes into making meth is because he knows there's money in it, but ALSO because he doesn't value the drug addicts as people. Early on in the series, he's not a distributor, he's not a lord, he's not even a killer except in a self-defense way (note how he didn't want to kill Krazy-8, and only did so after realizing that if he didn't, he would be killed instead).

Most importantly, though, is that meth is the hardest drug out there. Walt understands the drug hierarchy. He even smokes weed once, and he knows that cocaine is a rich-man's drug. Meth though? Meth is the drug that it's easy to scapegoat users as idiots or morons or whatever. There aren't meth-heads in Walt's daily life, or his family's life, and so it's fine to supply to them. Hell, early on, when he's supplying to Krazy-8, he's not even dealing with a cartel in any way.

Saying "All Meth Manufacturers Are Child Murderers" is ridiculous. I'm not saying it's good. I'm not saying it's something people should do. But it's a stretch to say that and I'm interested in how you arrived at that conclusion, because you may as well be saying that "All Gun Manufacturers Are Child Murderers". Walt certainly breaks bad, by like, the end of the second season at the latest, but at the beginning, it's more ambiguous, and because it's sort of a gradual movement, it's sometimes hard to see where the line is.

Your moral absolutism is nice and idealistic, but if you expect your entertainment to follow that sense of morals all the time, and if you can't distinguish between liking a good *character* that makes for good entertainment, and a good person, then maybe you should indeed stick to things like sitcoms and football, although I hope you don't like any professional teams, given the ABSOLUTELY EVIL personal troubles of professional athletes.

[Yora]

I just noticed something interesting in how Walt jr. saves the day. By calling the police!
What everyone else should have been doing since the very beginning!
The one character with the least involvement is the only one who actually acts like every rational person should have acted the whole time. At barely any point is giving up and telling everything to the police not an option to get out of danger.

Also something I completely missed when first watching the last episode:
How did Walter get the idea to roll the barrel through the desert until he got to the old mans house?
It's the "cow house" from the first episode. :smallbiggrin:

[Serpentine]

And I don't care how dynamic he is, if I cannot stand him. Just shoot him and get on with it. He is vermin and should be treated as such.

I. Can't. Handle. Villains. As. Main. Characters.

They do not deserve the limelight. It's as easy as that.Sooooo... Don't watch the show.

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/oldboy12/Bioshock/wer.gif

[Elhann]

Also something I completely missed when first watching the last episode:
How did Walter get the idea to roll the barrel through the desert until he got to the old mans house?
It's the "cow house" from the first episode. :smallbiggrin:

Rewatch it, and see if you can find another thing from the first episode. Maybe some fine trousers... :smallbiggrin:

Ah, Serpentine: I don't think he does. But yeah, yours is good avice.:smallsmile:

[Avilan the Grey]

The reason Walt goes into making meth is because he knows there's money in it, but ALSO because he doesn't value the drug addicts as people. Early on in the series, he's not a distributor, he's not a lord, he's not even a killer except in a self-defense way (note how he didn't want to kill Krazy-8, and only did so after realizing that if he didn't, he would be killed instead).

Most importantly, though, is that meth is the hardest drug out there. Walt understands the drug hierarchy. He even smokes weed once, and he knows that cocaine is a rich-man's drug. Meth though? Meth is the drug that it's easy to scapegoat users as idiots or morons or whatever. There aren't meth-heads in Walt's daily life, or his family's life, and so it's fine to supply to them. Hell, early on, when he's supplying to Krazy-8, he's not even dealing with a cartel in any way.

Saying "All Meth Manufacturers Are Child Murderers" is ridiculous. I'm not saying it's good. I'm not saying it's something people should do. But it's a stretch to say that and I'm interested in how you arrived at that conclusion, because you may as well be saying that "All Gun Manufacturers Are Child Murderers". Walt certainly breaks bad, by like, the end of the second season at the latest, but at the beginning, it's more ambiguous, and because it's sort of a gradual movement, it's sometimes hard to see where the line is.

So you are basically supporting my argument that Walt is a despicable person that needs to be taken care of.

Regarding guns... we can't argue much without getting into IRL politics, but as European as my views on the issue is, I still realize your argument is invalid; guns are not manufactured solely to enslave and slowly kill the user and the people around him or her.


Your moral absolutism is nice and idealistic, but if you expect your entertainment to follow that sense of morals all the time, and if you can't distinguish between liking a good *character* that makes for good entertainment, and a good person, then maybe you should indeed stick to things like sitcoms and football, although I hope you don't like any professional teams, given the ABSOLUTELY EVIL personal troubles of professional athletes.

Thanks for mocking me. Really mature.
Also, good laugh there, in the last sentence. You are now in my "can't take seriously again" box.


Sooooo... Don't watch the show.



I don't.

[Lord Seth]

And here's the kicker. His only comedy I really like is midsummers night dream. Macbeth, othello, king Lear are all far more entertaining to me.
You didn't like The Comedy of Errors? I thought that thing was freaking hilarious.

[Goosefeather]

Regarding guns... we can't argue much without getting into IRL politics, but as European as my views on the issue is, I still realize your argument is invalid; guns are not manufactured solely to enslave and slowly kill the user and the people around him or her.



Nor is meth.




I don't.

So why expend so much effort complaining about a show you don't watch? You don't watch it, and that's fine.
You ask why other people do watch it, and they give you reasons, but these reasons don't work for you. Again, that's fine.

But you have to accept that these reasons do work for us. We are able to enjoy watching characters who are not 100% Lawful Good.

You seem to get stuck on this last point - no-one is arguing that Walt is a good guy at this point, but that doesn't invalidate the show for us as good entertainment.

By persistently coming back to the topic, you start to give the impression that you believe we are in the wrong for enjoying the show, so it's no surprise that people get defensive, because there is nothing wrong with watching and enjoying shows with morally grey or even full-on evil protagonists. These shows, these protagonists, may not be for you, but that doesn't mean other people can't enjoy them, nor that they're wrong for doing so.



Edited to add:


So you are basically supporting my argument that Walt is a despicable person that needs to be taken care of.

Also, you seem to be under the impression that Walt is simply getting away with everything - he's not. His empire, his family, his whole life is crumbling around him. He is getting 'taken care of'. Again, had you actually watched the show you so vehemently criticise, you'd know that. He had to be built up before he could be brought down, but the character's flaws are leading to his downfall. He is suffering the consequences of his moral failings and bad choices. And it's making for great television.

[Dumbledore lives]

Well tonight's episode was amazing. At about the half-way point I was kind of questioning it, but in the end it didn't pull any punches and set up for an incredible finale.

[Avilan the Grey]

Nor is meth.

---

So why expend so much effort complaining about a show you don't watch?

Um yes it is. (Meth). It has NO other reason to be created than to enslave and destroy the users for profit.

And I don't know. I am just completely confused with the idea that people love watching these kind of shows, about these kind of people. It goes for other media too, as you have noticed I hate the fact that I won't be able to play GTA V for the same reasons. And that is the best selling game in history...

I am just feeling uneasy about the fact that people enjoy these things. And that is not an attack, it's my honest feeling.

Edit: also... A tangent to this is the insistance that these kind of characters are "interesting". This goes for all media as well; people insisting that the Joker, or the Ventriloquist, or whatshisface in GTA V or whatever...
But no, they are not interesting, they are nuts. Or evil. Or both. There is nothing "interesting" about them. Shoot them in the face and move on.

[VanBuren]

Um yes it is. (Meth). It has NO other reason to be created than to enslave and destroy the users for profit.

And I don't know. I am just completely confused with the idea that people love watching these kind of shows, about these kind of people. It goes for other media too, as you have noticed I hate the fact that I won't be able to play GTA V for the same reasons. And that is the best selling game in history...

I am just feeling uneasy about the fact that people enjoy these things. And that is not an attack, it's my honest feeling.

Edit: also... A tangent to this is the insistance that these kind of characters are "interesting". This goes for all media as well; people insisting that the Joker, or the Ventriloquist, or whatshisface in GTA V or whatever...
But no, they are not interesting, they are nuts. Or evil. Or both. There is nothing "interesting" about them. Shoot them in the face and move on.

And the very things you find uninteresting are what make them interesting to us. So... maybe just agree to disagree? Your disapproval of our tastes won't change them.

[Avilan the Grey]

And the very things you find uninteresting are what make them interesting to us. So... maybe just agree to disagree? Your disapproval of our tastes won't change them.

Oh I do not disapprove, I just don't understand.
But yes, I'll leave this well alone now. People are different and all that, but I still find it weird that whole nations, from teens to soccer moms all sit and watch psychopaths doing evil things and finding it entertaining.

[Yora]

Well tonight's episode was amazing. At about the half-way point I was kind of questioning it, but in the end it didn't pull any punches and set up for an incredible finale.
Really? I think it was completely boring with nothing interesting really happening.
Just a bit of Todd being Todd.

[Dumbledore lives]

Really? I think it was completely boring with nothing interesting really happening.
Just a bit of Todd being Todd.

Well to each his own. Nothing too major could happen in this episode anyway, it was the calm before the storm. I liked the end of Walter White and the beginning of Heisenberg's revenge.

[Lord Seth]

Um yes it is. (Meth). It has NO other reason to be created than to enslave and destroy the users for profit.No, it's made because, for whatever reason, people want to buy it and thus money can be made off it. Just like any product. Now, certainly, meth is far more dangerous than most other products, but people don't make it for the reason of "destroying" users because (1) if they wanted to kill someone, there are far faster ways to go about it, and (2) the users flat-out dying is actually really bad for sellers because it means those users won't be buying. Obviously, some do die from it (which is a side effect, not the goal), but it's certainly not something the people making the drugs want to have happen.

[Avilan the Grey]

No, it's made because, for whatever reason, people want to buy it and thus money can be made off it. Just like any product. Now, certainly, meth is far more dangerous than most other products, but people don't make it for the reason of "destroying" users because (1) if they wanted to kill someone, there are far faster ways to go about it, and (2) the users flat-out dying is actually really bad for sellers because it means those users won't be buying. Obviously, some do die from it (which is a side effect, not the goal), but it's certainly not something the people making the drugs want to have happen.

The makers know exactly what the drug does. You can window dress it any way you want, but it is illegal for a reason.

[Seerow]

The makers know exactly what the drug does. You can window dress it any way you want, but it is illegal for a reason.

There are people who would make the same arguments about alcohol. Not so long ago that was even considered illegal. I'm pretty sure this is brought up in the course of the show, with Walt and Hank talking about how it's funny what things get arbitrarily determined okay and illegal (in reference to an illegal cigar I believe, but touching on the same general themes, and ending with Hank proclaiming "good thing they got the right of it with Meth, huh?")

[Lord Seth]

The makers know exactly what the drug does.
Which is completely irrelevant to the point. You made the false claim that meth is made only to "destroy" the users which is blatantly false for the reasons I described. Meth, like all products, are made because people want to buy it and you can make money off of it. The side effects don't factor into the reason people make it.

You might as well say that MMORPGs are made just to screw up people's social lives. Or that people who make money off of people trying to climb Mt. Everest are only doing it because a fair amount of people who attempt the climb die in the process. No, it's done because there's a market for it, and, like the two examples I mentioned (especially Mt. Everest), the product happens to have some potentially nasty side effects.


You can window dress it any way you want, but it is illegal for a reason.
And yet one can claim the exact same thing about cigarettes and alcohol, which are legal.

In terms of your overall criticisms of the show, you seem to be just trying to drum up arguments by attacking it, then disregarding any defenses of the show people put up. I do not get the feeling you are legitimately trying to understand why people like it.

[Nameless Ghost]

Breaking Bad is a good show not just because of its story (which has its strong and weak points), but because of the execution of said story. Breaking Bad is well directed and on the whole well acted; it's an extraordinarily well made show compared to many others one might watch today. The use of lighting, music and camera to carry the mood and enhance the dramatic story unfolding is what makes it.

It's, I suppose, the television equivalent of a book having a questionable and controversial story and protagonist, but being extremely well-written and so having value for that reason despite what your feelings on the characters/story might be.

[thorgrim29]

Kinda like Lolita

And seriously show, we know Todd is a cold blooded killer with little to no morality, no need to hammer it in so much... Otherwise great episode, I liked the slowly rising tension and the explanation for the timeskip

[Elhann]

But the first time Todd killed someone, there was some twisted, horrible reason (if the kid is dead, he cannot identify them). This time is to reinforce his slave that his life is now much worse than dead. Also, Andrew Sharpe was background noise in the story. Andrea was the closest to a good thing that Jesse had since the show started, and probably for some time before. This WAS personal, only not for Jesse, for you.

The episode also serves to remind everyone that Walt's decissions have completely ruined the lives of everyone involved with him: Jesse is in hell, Hank's dead, Skyler's been threatened in her own home and Heisenberg's phone call wasn't remotely enough to get the DEA off, Flynn doesn't want ANYTHING from the man he worshipped, Saul has to take off and lose his kinda-high-profile life...

Even Walt has to pay a guy to spend an hour with him, and worse of all, his justification for all this is gone. It takes Gretchen's interview to make him realize what the show viewers have seen for a long time now. There is now more Walter White, only Heisenberg. A pitiful Heisenberg now. The guy who didn't want to be pitied and turned into a kingpin, now ready to... correct his mistakes? Avenge Hank at the very least? Show everyone WHO is the real danger?

Yeah, nice tension building for the finale, after the wild ride that was "Ozymandias"

[cluckyb]

(had to go to the oots forums to make sure people would get this and not spoil anything. still using the spoiler tags incase anyone here actually hasn't finished reading all of OOTS yet)

Does anyone else here find a ton of similarities between Walt and V and the black dragon? Their motivation is honorable (save their respective families) but their pride prevents them from getting help and winds up turning them into monsters.

[eggynack]

(had to go to the oots forums to make sure people would get this and not spoil anything. still using the spoiler tags incase anyone here actually hasn't finished reading all of OOTS yet)

Does anyone else here find a ton of similarities between Walt and V and the black dragon? Their motivation is honorable (save their respective families) but their pride prevents them from getting help and winds up turning them into monsters.
Well, maybe at first a little bit, but I think that Walt left V behind awhile ago, even if V is winning for sheer numbers. At some point, Walter stopped doing the whole "wrong thing for the maybe right reasons" thing, and started just going out and out evil. Basically, his solution to any given problem is to take everyone out in a fiery explosion, whether that explosion is literal or figurative. Moreover, at some other point, Walter stopped refusing to take money because Gretchen was offering it, and he started refusing to take money just because he loves cooking meth so much. There was a moral event horizon at some point, and Walter crossed it. I don't think V has yet, and I doubt s/he will in the future.

[Seerow]

Well, maybe at first a little bit, but I think that Walt left V behind awhile ago, even if V is winning for sheer numbers. At some point, Walter stopped doing the whole "wrong thing for the maybe right reasons" thing, and started just going out and out evil. Basically, his solution to any given problem is to take everyone out in a fiery explosion, whether that explosion is literal or figurative. Moreover, at some other point, Walter stopped refusing to take money because Gretchen was offering it, and he started refusing to take money just because he loves cooking meth so much. There was a moral event horizon at some point, and Walter crossed it. I don't think V has yet, and I doubt s/he will in the future.

I honestly think this line got crossed right as season 4 ended, possibly as season 5 began.

I can think of justifications for basically everything Walt does through most of the first four seasons, up until the whole xanatos gambit to get Jesse on board for killing Gus. Before that there was a lot of death involved, but not nearly as much as I had expected from the things I had heard about the show (I marathoned the whole thing about 3 or 4 weeks ago). There were plenty of things that were very grey/neutral, but up until poisoning the kid to trick Jesse into coming on board, typically he did little to anybody who did not deserve it.

Then we hit season 5, where the serious downward spiral begins. As noted, when he insists he needs to continue cooking meth despite having long since met and exceeded his goals; killing over a dozen people in cold blood just to avoid paying them (again despite having far more money than he needs); insisting that Todd should stay and him shooting the kid was the right thing (speaking of: How did Jesse keep his blinders on for Mike after that? Kids have consistently been his big soft spot, but even after that event Jesse is still all about Mike being the best guy ever and Walt being the evil one, despite Jesse being outvoted by the two of them combined); and probably a half dozen other events I've forgotten.

[SmartAlec]

Not really a Shakespeare person to begin with... But yes, I do not find it all that entertaining (unlike his comedies).

Did someone say Shakespeare? :smallcool:

'to hold, as 'twere, the
mirror up to nature; to show virtue her own feature,
scorn her own image, and the very age and body of
the time his form and pressure.'

Pithy way to start out, but that's Hamlet's attempt to explain the purpose of drama.

Why do people enjoy this kind of show? It holds a mirror up to nature. Specifically, a darker side of human nature that does exist, but isn't something many of us come into contact with in the course of our daily lives. If handled well, we can still put ourselves into the heads of these characters, they seem real enough for us to empathise, if not sympathise.

As with many stories, this gives us a chance to explore a side of ourselves that we never touch. What does this experience tell us about ourselves? We live the deadly sins vicariously through these characters, and through reflecting on what we have seen and felt, we understand ourselves better, and give those parts of us a little relief - a little airing.

One might say, 'there's nothing there for me, I cannot stand this kind of show'. But, if so, then it's already brought something to light, that watching these qualities even in fiction revolts and disgusts. Why is that? Why does it repulse me so in that way? Would the reaction be the same if it was something I saw in real life, right in front of me? That's some questions to explore.

(not necessarily here in this forum, but it might be something to think about.)

[pita]

There were about four or five moments on this episode where I said "This is the most depressing thing I've ever seen."
Skyler's reaction to being told "Your life is over"? Walt begging someone to spend another two hours, and being bargained down to an hour for 10,000$? Flynn telling his father to die? Anything remotely connected to Jesse?

Add to that the fact that TV's new greatest villain ever is a baby-faced, soft-spoken guy who acts like a teenager with a crush towards his boss... There should be a Todd and Jack spinoff where they just do horrible things to people for ever, because Todd and Jack are absolutely terrifying. Or maybe a movie where they take on Batman.

[eggynack]

I honestly think this line got crossed right as season 4 ended, possibly as season 5 began.

I can think of justifications for basically everything Walt does through most of the first four seasons, up until the whole xanatos gambit to get Jesse on board for killing Gus. Before that there was a lot of death involved, but not nearly as much as I had expected from the things I had heard about the show (I marathoned the whole thing about 3 or 4 weeks ago). There were plenty of things that were very grey/neutral, but up until poisoning the kid to trick Jesse into coming on board, typically he did little to anybody who did not deserve it.

Then we hit season 5, where the serious downward spiral begins. As noted, when he insists he needs to continue cooking meth despite having long since met and exceeded his goals; killing over a dozen people in cold blood just to avoid paying them (again despite having far more money than he needs); insisting that Todd should stay and him shooting the kid was the right thing (speaking of: How did Jesse keep his blinders on for Mike after that? Kids have consistently been his big soft spot, but even after that event Jesse is still all about Mike being the best guy ever and Walt being the evil one, despite Jesse being outvoted by the two of them combined); and probably a half dozen other events I've forgotten.
Yeah, that's a decent breaking (bad) point. There's a really solid ton of possibilities, ranging from Gale, to Jane, to Brock. I don't think that he was killing those people to avoid paying them though. He actually just couldn't pay them. He was practically physically incapable of doing so. He probably would have killed them, even if he could have payed them to avoid doing so, but there were non-money factors involved.


Add to that the fact that TV's new greatest villain ever is a baby-faced, soft-spoken guy who acts like a teenager with a crush towards his boss... There should be a Todd and Jack spinoff where they just do horrible things to people for ever, because Todd and Jack are absolutely terrifying. Or maybe a movie where they take on Batman.
I was thinking a Todd and Lydia spin off. It'd be called, "Todd and Lydia Adventures," and it would be all about their adventures in selling meth in the Czech Republic, and their unresolved sexual tension, and there would be a nifty jingle attached and everything. Todd is crazy scary, because he just doesn't care about anything. Everyone else is tied down by these big faults, and attachments, but Todd just does things, and it's never ever personal.

[pita]

I was thinking a Todd and Lydia spin off. It'd be called, "Todd and Lydia Adventures," and it would be all about their adventures in selling meth in the Czech Republic, and their unresolved sexual tension, and there would be a nifty jingle attached and everything. Todd is crazy scary, because he just doesn't care about anything. Everyone else is tied down by these big faults, and attachments, but Todd just does things, and it's never ever personal.

I actually really like the Todd and Jack chemistry. The thing with Jack is that he's a classic monster. He's evil and he doesn't care and it shows. Everything about him, from the swastika to his attitude to his walk, is evil. There's nothing beyond what you see. He's evil, but you can figure out what's going on in his head as a result. But Todd is this sweet, friendly guy no matter what he's doing. He could be eating lunch with some friends or putting a bullet through a kid's head and he'll have the same dopey look. The reason Todd is so terrifying (to me) is because he's surrounded by people who react. And you can tell he's got priorities, but he's an emotional teaspoon to the degree that you don't really know what they are. He's respectful and kind to Walter White, but that doesn't stop him from helping Jack coerce him. He sees Jesse as a friend, but that doesn't stop him at all from turning Jesse's life into hell. The only person he's shown absolute loyalty to is Jack, and what's going to happen the day something snaps in his head and he kills Jack? It's obvious he's his own man, and that'll cause friction with Jack.
Maybe the spin-off will be about the three of them. That could be decent. Though I still think they should either face Batman or Rorschach.

[eggynack]

I actually really like the Todd and Jack chemistry. The thing with Jack is that he's a classic monster. He's evil and he doesn't care and it shows. Everything about him, from the swastika to his attitude to his walk, is evil. There's nothing beyond what you see. He's evil, but you can figure out what's going on in his head as a result. But Todd is this sweet, friendly guy no matter what he's doing. He could be eating lunch with some friends or putting a bullet through a kid's head and he'll have the same dopey look. The reason Todd is so terrifying (to me) is because he's surrounded by people who react. And you can tell he's got priorities, but he's an emotional teaspoon to the degree that you don't really know what they are. He's respectful and kind to Walter White, but that doesn't stop him from helping Jack coerce him. He sees Jesse as a friend, but that doesn't stop him at all from turning Jesse's life into hell. The only person he's shown absolute loyalty to is Jack, and what's going to happen the day something snaps in his head and he kills Jack? It's obvious he's his own man, and that'll cause friction with Jack.
Maybe the spin-off will be about the three of them. That could be decent. Though I still think they should either face Batman or Rorschach.
I guess Jack could be there too. I kinda like the sound of "Todd and Lydia Adventures" though. I figure that they'd sometimes have different plot lines, and would sometimes get into a zany scheme or two.
"She sells meth in the Czech republic
He tries to make it blue.
They're keeping Jesse prisoner
so he'll have some fun too.
It's the Todd and Lydia adventures."
That's one of the verses, anyways. I suppose I can content myself with the Saul spin off.

[Serpentine]

<.<
>.>
Relevant (http://thepunchlineismachismo.com/archives/comic/you-could-actually-probably-get-a-pretty-interesting-story-out-of-twilight-if-vampire-was-slang-for-meth-addict)?

[Yora]

I actually really like the Todd and Jack chemistry.
That's the really weird thing about them. They are pretty much about the worst people on the entire show, but I feel that you still just have to like them. They are such nice guys.
And they really don't even try to hide the fact that they are a gang of Nazis. :smallbiggrin:

[KillianHawkeye]

Well I just got done watching every episode. Did it in just two and a half weeks. Now I have to wait three days for the finale and ITS KILLING ME. :smallsigh::smallannoyed::smallbiggrin:

[Yora]

I'm with you, man.

I am really wondering how they are going to do this. As I see it, the previous episode wasted so much time on irrelevant stuff and there are so many things that could still be adressed.
The biggest question for me right now is who wrote Heisenberg on the walls of Walters bedroom? It was there when he came back to get the poison at the start of a couple of episodes back. Which leads to the other big question, who is he going to kill with it?

He most probably bought the machine gun to take down the Nazis to get back his money, and during that he'll run into Jesse and then we'll see what will happen between them.
But then there also needs to be some conclusion with Skyler.
And something has to come out of the whole Lydia storyline, or it would have been pointless to follow her work so far.

Unless we get a Soprano-ending, there will be a lot going on.

[pita]

I am really wondering how they are going to do this. As I see it, the previous episode wasted so much time on irrelevant stuff and there are so many things that could still be adressed.
The biggest question for me right now is who wrote Heisenberg on the walls of Walters bedroom? It was there when he came back to get the poison at the start of a couple of episodes back. Which leads to the other big question, who is he going to kill with it?

He most probably bought the machine gun to take down the Nazis to get back his money, and during that he'll run into Jesse and then we'll see what will happen between them.
But then there also needs to be some conclusion with Skyler.
And something has to come out of the whole Lydia storyline, or it would have been pointless to follow her work so far.

Unless we get a Soprano-ending, there will be a lot going on.

Whoever wrote Heisenberg on the White house is meaningless. They've mentioned teens vandalized the place. He's been outed as Heisenberg. It doesn't matter at this point.
The poison could have a few targets. The Schwartzes or the Nazis are the two biggest possibilities. Minor possibilities are Lydia or Saul, but he doesn't have any real motivation to kill them.
The machine gun may be for the Nazis, and it may be a general protection sort of thing, seeing as he's back for business.
No comment on the last three points. Skyler is obviously going to appear, for closure. And I get the feeling that Lydia won't survive this episode.
Can't wait for next week. Too bad I only get to watch stuff on weekends...

[Dienekes]

So that's it. The story of Walter White is complete, and I greatly enjoyed the ride.

Man Todd is one creepy bastard. Even after watching his entire mob-gang family get murdered he still seems more surprised and in awe than phased by it.

Walter was devious as always. Clever taking out everybody like that, and his death just patting the chemical labs. Anyone else think he was going to let Jessie die with everyone else until he saw what terrors happened to him which lead to his decision to spare him? Though, warning Lidia about the resin seems odd, as that gives her the opportunity to get an ambulance knowing exactly what she has in her system. But he needed to gloat, because it's Walter. Even after admitting finally that he really was a terrible person all along to his wife, he still feels the need to rub it in his victims face.

Also, I enjoy that in the end Walter got exactly what he wanted at the start of the show. He found a way to bring the money to his family, and he got the recognition he felt he deserved. Mind you that recognition was as a criminal mastermind and his son hates him but he did it.

[Arcane_Secrets]

So that's it. The story of Walter White is complete, and I greatly enjoyed the ride.

Man Todd is one creepy bastard. Even after watching his entire mob-gang family get murdered he still seems more surprised and in awe than phased by it.

Walter was devious as always. Clever taking out everybody like that, and his death just patting the chemical labs. Anyone else think he was going to let Jessie die with everyone else until he saw what terrors happened to him which lead to his decision to spare him? Though, warning Lidia about the resin seems odd, as that gives her the opportunity to get an ambulance knowing exactly what she has in her system. But he needed to gloat, because it's Walter. Even after admitting finally that he really was a terrible person all along to his wife, he still feels the need to rub it in his victims face.

Also, I enjoy that in the end Walter got exactly what he wanted at the start of the show. He found a way to bring the money to his family, and he got the recognition he felt he deserved. Mind you that recognition was as a criminal mastermind and his son hates him but he did it.

Lidia knowing that she had been poisoned by the ricin probably wouldn't have saved her by that point. The way it works by the time you start showing symptoms multiple organs are already failing like the liver iirc and there's no antidote. I also think that Walter gave her enough to kill a lot more than just a single person

[KillianHawkeye]

Wow, such a great ending to a great show! They really covered all the bases in the finale. I felt very satisfied at the level of closure that was achieved.

Also glad to see Badger and Skinny Pete making a reappearance. That was such a good trick with the laser pointers.

Extra special props to Walt for remaining an utter badass and getting everything he wanted in the end.

[Dumbledore lives]

I don't know.

I almost felt the finale was unnecessary. It was well acted, there were quite a few good scenes, and it was certainly final, but it felt very expected. Walt was going to die, the nazis were going to die. He would have a conversation with Gretchen, but wouldn't kill her. Lydia would have something bad happen to her, Jessie was about fifty fifty. I feel like the series could have ended last episode and I would have been okay with it. I also heard someone say that ending it at Ozymandias would also have worked. Given the scenes earlier post time-skip I think it would have worked.

Breaking Bad constantly surprised me, especially with the absolute bombshell that was Ozymandias, but I feel like the finale was too typical for the show. I guess I've just come to expect better, and it was a good episode, it just wasn't amazing. I think I will remember other episodes of the show much more than this one, which is kind of disappointing. When it ended I understanded why, I just didn't think it needed to be shown. Much better than Dexter's finale though.

I feel like everything got wrapped up a bit too nicely.

[Yora]

Yeah, I am with Dumbledor on this one. I'm not impressed. The show just ran out of gas and then was left to roll out for the last two episodes. And then it just stops.

The only important thing that happened was Walter saying for once, that he did it all for himself, because he was good at it and enjoyed being good at something he likes.
Still never said anything about being sorry about any of it, but with Walter, that's probably as much as you can hope for.

Now looking back, I'd say Breaking Bad is certainly a great show. But I think it really only deserves a B grade and not an A grade. Because the primary reason it's so exciting to wait for a new episode is the excessive use of those flash-forward scenes at the beginning of many episodes. Which most of the time turn out to be something not anywhere near as exciting as it was made to believe.
It works well, but I think it's really mostly a cheap trick that the show made excessive use of. It's a sneaky variant of regular old cliffhangers, just that you don't put them at the end of the episodes. It's still a really good show, but I think without that cheap trick, it would not be as thrilling as it is.

Oh, and to finish this with a stupid pun:

Breaking Bad? More like Breaking Even. :smalltongue:

[Elhann]

I found it true to the rest of the series, and very enjoyable.
Maybe a little slow, but Breaking Bad has never been too fast-paced.

I especially liked that Walt stopped lying to himself ("I did it for me"), and the Jesse-Todd bit at the end.

[Dumbledore lives]

I think I have a bit of a different opinion Yora, though similar feelings about the finale.

Everything built up the finale perfectly. Everything was foreshadowed, there was good thematic resonance, and overall everything just kind of worked, but Breaking Bad has never been about just working. For me something special would have to happen; some great twist or reveal would have to appear and blow me away. This could not happen though, by any conventional storytelling method and by any real sense. Essentially what I wanted would have made for a worse finale and thus would not be made, however I am unhappy with what could be made because of my high expectations.

They hype was too much in short. If you make something as damn near perfect as this show, there is no way to finish it, which is why for me it will end at Granite State, and I am satisfied with that ending because of the potential, which is actually enough for me.

[Dienekes]

Yeah, it did wrap up a bit nicely. But honestly, I enjoyed it. I enjoyed watching Walt plan more murders, I greatly enjoyed his conversation with his wife. The real twists or revelations of the story weren't about Walts major actions, we knew what they were coming into it. He was coming in to kick ass and take names. It comes from Walt at the last minute deciding to save Jesse's life, his acknowledgment of the lies he's been telling himself from the beginning of the show, and whether or not he will actually obtain what his goal was from the beginning.

And no episode is going to be as good as Ozymandias. I knew that coming into it. So it didn't bother me, that was the climax, these last two episodes were the denouement, but I thought they were a very well made ending.

I am confused how anyone can find the second episode to be a waste of time. The show has always been about Walters rationalization and the changes he goes through, sometimes they're fast and sometimes they're not. Last episode was necessary as it was all about Walter being forced to sit alone and think about everything he's done and plan how to go forward. It shows Walt at his truly lowest point, just waiting to die alone with his cash, and what it took to get going again.

This series deserves all the praise it receives. The acting, the cinematography, and the story are superb.

[Lord Seth]

The finale got a whopping 10.3 million viewers, for anyone curious, beating everything on Sunday not named "football".

[TheFallenOne]

I especially liked that Walt stopped lying to himself ("I did it for me"), and the Jesse-Todd bit at the end.

Did he lie to himself though? I find it equally likely he lied to Skyler because that's what she needed to hear to be at peace.

Walt has struggled with the dual nature of the merciless druglord and the loving family man and found that with all that happened nobody can accept him as the former anymore, not even his son. There have been multiple instances where he pretended to be the monster others saw in him because this was the only way they'd believe him and let him achieve his goal. The phone call at the end of Ozymandias where he pretended to be the tyrant forcing his wife's hand to save her from criminal culpability. Gretchen and Elliot at the end. In those instances, he wasn't the monster others thought him to be. He merely played that role for the sake of his family.

[KillianHawkeye]

Did he lie to himself though? I find it equally likely he lied to Skyler because that's what she needed to hear to be at peace.

Walt has struggled with the dual nature of the merciless druglord and the loving family man and found that with all that happened nobody can accept him as the former anymore, not even his son. There have been multiple instances where he pretended to be the monster others saw in him because this was the only way they'd believe him and let him achieve his goal. The phone call at the end of Ozymandias where he pretended to be the tyrant forcing his wife's hand to save her from criminal culpability. Gretchen and Elliot at the end. In those instances, he wasn't the monster others thought him to be. He merely played that role for the sake of his family.

Without a doubt, Walt got into it in order to provide for his family. But there were mulitple instances when he chose to keep doing it rather than retiring with the money he already had or taking another option which would have provided for his family or his medical expenses.

I find it to be one of the more interesting things about this show that the reasons for doing what he does change so much over the course of it. At first, it's for family. Then, it was for pride. After that, it became all about his empire and his legacy. Even when he was rolling in cash, he kept going because he clearly didn't want to give it up. It wasn't until he had lost almost everything that he refocused on his original purpose. At the end, all he had left was to secure things for his family like he had intended to do from the beginning.

So in my opinion, when Walt said he did it all because he enjoyed it, because he was good at it, and because it made him feel alive, I absolutely believe that it was the truth. Maybe it wasn't the whole truth, but it definitely was part of it.

[VanBuren]

I'm pretty sure Heisenberg died out in the desert with Hank

Note how every time he tries to invoke his Heisenberg mojo after that, it utterly fails.

At the end of Granite State he reawakens, but this time without the delusions of a moral high ground. He can't redeem himself, but he can set a few things right at least. He's not Heisenberg, but a higher octave of Walt. He's honest. Not just to others, but to himself. And with that honesty, Walter Hartwell White finally becomes as dangerous as he always wanted people to think he was.

I loved the finale. I went into this season wanting Walt to lose everything and die miserably. Instead I got to watch him fall, and then make one last brilliant stand. And it was incredible.

Thank you, Vince Gilligan. For this amazing ride.

[Elhann]

Did he lie to himself though? I find it equally likely he lied to Skyler because that's what she needed to hear to be at peace.


Well, I think at some point before admiting it to Skyler, he realized that in the end he had done it just because he was good at it, even if he had ruined the lives of people close to him (Jesse more than anyone). Saying "I did for myself" outloud serves to make HIM at peace before taking on Jack and his merry bunch of Nazis. Besides, how much reason for that was protecting his family, revenge over Hank, or revenge over himself?

Is it good for Skyler? Yes, but I guess that's not his main motivation at that point.

Just like I'm not entirely sure that his phone call at "Ozymandias" was just to take the DEA off of her and the children. Walt is a very clever guy, and he knew that the DEA/FBI/whatever was listening, but deep down, some of the bitterness was real. And the whole "I did it for me" is a good sign of this I'm saying: if in the end Walt was doing it for his own sake, Skyler's morality (or her fear that something could happen to Walt or the kids) was like a chain stopping him.

The thing is, I believe Heisenberg took over Walt when he let Jane die, but these last 8 episodes, the distinction between Walt and Heisenberg has been less clear.