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Zahhak
2013-08-12, 12:14 PM
So basically, right now I kind of hate my players.

I created a sci fi world and a town, with the campaign amounting to "go explore the wilderness, or get involved in this murder-mystery plot". During our initial discussion about this we had some interest in a biologist who focuses on the native life of this alien planet, a military medic, and a federal marshal. So, we were off to a good start.

By the time we're actually making characters though, things have changed. We have five players. A xenobiologist, a military medic (good starts), a travelling conman (OK, he could probably talk his into any interrogations and use skills, I guess), a former criminal turned farm hand (OK, I guess I could work with that), and a romance novelist (wtf?).

Then we got to making character background. Now, our group of 2 useful characters, 2 kind of useful characters, and the useless character have a weird overlapping relationship with each other that involves a set of possible father/son, estranged wife/husband, jilted ex-lovers, estranged brother/sister, and three of them (kind of four) were involved in the one crime on this entire planet that warrants the death penalty.

You may have noticed the stunning similarity that has to a soap opera. I did too. That's why during the character creation process I kept pointing out how I don't have any clue how they expect to be involved in the story. Christ, one of the characters would probably be more useful as a four year old.

During all of this they kept saying "it is the GM's responsibility to find a way to fit the characters in the story", which at this point amounts to serious railroading and completely and totally ignoring their actual relationship with each other and their own goddamn personalities.

So, at this point I see myself basically having four options: inform them that they will be making new characters that actually make some kind of sense in the setting (or just make new characters for them and tell them to like it), throw away my campaign and write a soap opera, rail road them with their basically useless characters into the story, or just can the whole thing and never talk to them again.

Input?

Gamgee
2013-08-12, 12:30 PM
Could the novelist be played as an "unlikely" hero that will eventually rise to become more badass and used to this kind of thing? Did you talk to your players and see what they want to eventually happen to these characters?

You sound really lucky to have some players that want to role play. I don't have any that like to do that. At least not with anything too extensive or in depth like that. It would be a refreshing change of pace for me.

Boci
2013-08-12, 12:33 PM
Try to gently warn them their "it is the GM's responsibility to find a way to fit the characters in the story" stance is not entirely true, as someone who wears a high visibility vest on a night raid will be shot down, and the Gm will not be at fault. Then run what ever game you wanted to. The useless character will either learn to pull their weight, develop emotional connections in place of practical contributions, or die and then reroll (hopefully as someone more useful).

Is the game freeform, or using some rules?

some guy
2013-08-12, 12:44 PM
Fifth option:
Tell them "it is the GM's responsibility to find a way to fit the characters in the story" is a load of crock. Tell them that the main responsibility lies with the player self and then by the other players and GM.
In other words, brainstorm with the complete group to fit their characters in the story (with every person being responsible for their own character).

Mordar
2013-08-12, 12:51 PM
Fifth option:
Tell them "it is the GM's responsibility to find a way to fit the characters in the story" is a load of crock. Tell them that the main responsibility lies with the player self and then by the other players and GM.
In other words, brainstorm with the complete group to fit their characters in the story (with every person being responsible for their own character).

QFT - One of my favorite opening moves during the first session is to open with "So, how did you all end up in this [cave/jail cell/airport/whatever] with each other, and why is that [farmer/boogeyman/cop/angry mechanic with a wrench] so upset with you?"

If they have enough info about the world and are comfortable enough to come up with diverse characters, they should be able to do a swell job answering that question. Now, they might need help, but that is reasonable...

- M

valadil
2013-08-12, 01:02 PM
Not gonna lie, that group sounds really fun to me.

I've written my fair share of soap opera level coincidences into games before. Sometimes I wonder how the players will swallow it all and at what point they'll flip the table and yell at me for writing utter crap into the game. And yet that never happens and it all seems to work out.

Here's the thing I've realized about that sort of writing. Map out the relationships on paper. It'll look like a massive spiderweb. There's no way all those people coming from different backgrounds would have so many intertwined relationships. It's unbelievable.

But that's the birdseye view.

Look at it from the PCs' POV. They will never see that huge web as it appears on paper. They'll notice one coincidental relationship at a time. If it's a big enough deal it'll be the focus of what they do. It'll be weeks before they bump into the next one. They'll have time to digest each of these connections before seeing all the others. They'll be spread out enough that it won't seem quite so overwhelming.

Now keep in mind that they won't even uncover half of these relationships. And on top of that even if they dig up all the evidence they need to see one of them, they still might fail to put things together.

Don't believe me? That's okay, here's another idea.

You've got four PCs with a set of connected backstories that so unlikely you want to rage quit. You have a PC who doesn't belong in the group: a romance novelist. I think the latter might be able to solve the former.

My answer to that is that the other four PCs are characters in the novelist's book. No idea how the novelist ended up there. Usually this sort of plot is found in fantasty rather than scifi (well, unless you're talking Moriarty in the holodeck), but I'm sure you could come up with something.

jedipotter
2013-08-12, 01:08 PM
Input?

What about six? Just toss the adventure at them and let them stubble through it. Soap Opera is not a bad thing....Breaking Bad, Rescue Me, The Shield, The Sopronaos, OZ, Rome, Deadwood, and Game of Thrones can all very well be called soap operas. So soap opera is not a bad thing. And it is so, so easy to do ''ex-wife goes out with mob boss, son is killed by thug, aunt is...."

Zahhak
2013-08-12, 01:21 PM
Could the novelist be played as an "unlikely" hero that will eventually rise to become more badass and used to this kind of thing? Did you talk to your players and see what they want to eventually happen to these characters?

Zero interest. She also doesn't have much in the way of "relevant skills, abilities, or knowledge".


You sound really lucky to have some players that want to role play. I don't have any that like to do that. At least not with anything too extensive or in depth like that. It would be a refreshing change of pace for me.

You want em? Keep em.


Try to gently warn them their "it is the GM's responsibility to find a way to fit the characters in the story" stance is not entirely true, as someone who wears a high visibility vest on a night raid will be shot down, and the Gm will not be at fault. Then run what ever game you wanted to. The useless character will either learn to pull their weight, develop emotional connections in place of practical contributions, or die and then reroll (hopefully as someone more useful).

They still talk about the total party kill that "I caused" by them all being morons and ignoring my direct warning that what they are about to do will get them killed. And they insist that its my job to find a way to make their character work, even if their character makes no sense. It took quite a bit of effort to get one guy to not be PI to the stars, currently living in a town of just under 300. :smallannoyed:


Is the game freeform, or using some rules?

I'm not sure I understand the question.


Fifth option:
Tell them "it is the GM's responsibility to find a way to fit the characters in the story" is a load of crock. Tell them that the main responsibility lies with the player self and then by the other players and GM.

I'm not sure quite how to do that, tbh.


In other words, brainstorm with the complete group to fit their characters in the story (with every person being responsible for their own character).

Oh, this is FATE core, the making characters is a group effort. And this is what the group came up with.


Not gonna lie, that group sounds really fun to me.

It's not. Normally the group comes up with characters that make sense, this is not one of those times.


Look at it from the PCs' POV. They will never see that huge web as it appears on paper. They'll notice one coincidental relationship at a time. If it's a big enough deal it'll be the focus of what they do. It'll be weeks before they bump into the next one. They'll have time to digest each of these connections before seeing all the others. They'll be spread out enough that it won't seem quite so overwhelming.

Now keep in mind that they won't even uncover half of these relationships. And on top of that even if they dig up all the evidence they need to see one of them, they still might fail to put things together.

They came up with this. They all already know that they are playing in a soap opera, and they are the ones who made this a soap opera.


What about six? Just toss the adventure at them and let them stubble through it. Soap Opera is not a bad thing....Breaking Bad, Rescue Me, The Shield, The Sopronaos, OZ, Rome, Deadwood, and Game of Thrones can all very well be called soap operas. So soap opera is not a bad thing. And it is so, so easy to do ''ex-wife goes out with mob boss, son is killed by thug, aunt is...."

Yeah, but it isn't even remotely what I have prepared. This is basically the "throw out what I have and make a soap opera" option.

kyoryu
2013-08-12, 01:30 PM
By the time we're actually making characters though, things have changed. We have five players. A xenobiologist, a military medic (good starts), a travelling conman (OK, he could probably talk his into any interrogations and use skills, I guess), a former criminal turned farm hand (OK, I guess I could work with that), and a romance novelist (wtf?).

The first step is to make sure that everyone is sold on, and agrees to, playing the same game.

That doesn't mean system, or even setting. Those are in a way secondary. What's important to get agreement on is "what is this game about?"

I'm not sure that the party and you have an agreement on that. In some ways, I think you may be the odd man out.


Then we got to making character background. Now, our group of 2 useful characters, 2 kind of useful characters, and the useless character have a weird overlapping relationship with each other that involves a set of possible father/son, estranged wife/husband, jilted ex-lovers, estranged brother/sister, and three of them (kind of four) were involved in the one crime on this entire planet that warrants the death penalty.

So here's a point of disconnect - it seems like (at least some of) your players have created characters that point at a desire for the game to be centered on intra-party drama, and the backstories that they've created.

If your idea of a game is "here's the setting, go find and defeat the challenges I've created", then that's a mismatch of expectations.

Your calling some of the characters "useless" kind of reinforces this. You're expecting characters that are set up to overcome particular types of challenges, and they've given you characters designed for an entirely different type of game. Neither is wrong, but there definitely seems to be some incompatible assumptions.


You may have noticed the stunning similarity that has to a soap opera. I did too. That's why during the character creation process I kept pointing out how I don't have any clue how they expect to be involved in the story. Christ, one of the characters would probably be more useful as a four year old.

Yes, and the characters that players create are a direct indication of what the players find interesting. In this case, it should be a huge flag that the scenario that you've been prepping isn't something that they're interested in.


During all of this they kept saying "it is the GM's responsibility to find a way to fit the characters in the story", which at this point amounts to serious railroading and completely and totally ignoring their actual relationship with each other and their own goddamn personalities.

Another way to think of it is fitting the story to the characters. Put yourself in the mind of an author, given these characters and being told to write a story about them - is the scenario you've written the scenario you'd use?

That doesn't mean it has to be a "soap opera". There's plenty of stories where the "soap opera" stuff exists, but isn't the main plot.


So, at this point I see myself basically having four options: inform them that they will be making new characters that actually make some kind of sense in the setting (or just make new characters for them and tell them to like it), throw away my campaign and write a soap opera, rail road them with their basically useless characters into the story, or just can the whole thing and never talk to them again.

I think all of those are an unnecessarily harsh way of looking at things. I'd talk with them and basically say "Look, guys, here's the kind of game that I was assuming we'd be running, and what I thought the game would be focused on. I'm guessing, based on your characters, that you guys have a different idea. So, we should probably sit down and talk about what it is we're actually going to do." And hash it out like reasonable adults. Set out the kind of things you're willing to run, and find out the kind of things that they find interesting to play in. Figure out what the commonality is, and work off of that.

And if there's no commonality, then don't run anything, but see if one of them is willing to run something instead.

The most important thing here is to align everyone's expectations. The analogy I like to use is this: I like Coke and iced tea. About equally. But if I take a sip of my drink, and I'm expecting Coke but it's really iced tea, then it tastes gross, and vice versa. Even though I like the taste of both of them!


Zero interest. She also doesn't have much in the way of "relevant skills, abilities, or knowledge".

Okay, now that I know this is Fate Core...

Um, how the hell does that happen in Fate Core? Setting your skill list is like the first thing you do, as your skill list is kind of a statement of "these are things that are important in this game". If someone makes a character that's incompetent, to a great extent that's on the GM for including irrelevant skills. "Would this skill be a good peak skill" is one of the questions you should always ask before putting a skill in your skill list. And if the answer is "no", the skill likely shouldn't be there.


They still talk about the total party kill that "I caused" by them all being morons and ignoring my direct warning that what they are about to do will get them killed. And they insist that its my job to find a way to make their character work, even if their character makes no sense. It took quite a bit of effort to get one guy to not be PI to the stars, currently living in a town of just under 300. :smallannoyed:

Um, in Fate Core, yeah, the setting and "what the game is about" is collaborative. If someone wants to be "PI to the stars", then one of a few things has happened:

1) You're making an assumption that the group hasn't agreed to
2) You just need to find a way to get him out of his element
3) Why not talk to the player about it, and work with him to figure out why he's in some tiny town?


Oh, this is FATE core, the making characters is a group effort. And this is what the group came up with.

The characters *and setting* should be a group effort. As well as "what is this game about". Fate isn't D&D, and the story should be *about* the characters. As in, character aspects should be things that drive individual sessions/scenarios.


It's not. Normally the group comes up with characters that make sense, this is not one of those times.

The players came up with characters that interest them. They only "don't make sense" in the scenario you have in mind.


They came up with this. They all already know that they are playing in a soap opera, and they are the ones who made this a soap opera.

Fate Core is *about* characters. To some extent, that shouldn't be a surprise. That doesn't mean that the game/story has to revolve around the "soap opera" aspects, but the game/story *shouldn't* make sense for another group of characters. It's supposed to be tailored *to* those characters.


Yeah, but it isn't even remotely what I have prepared. This is basically the "throw out what I have and make a soap opera" option.

I don't think the "soap opera" bits are the issue here, TBH. I think the issue is:

1) You expected focus in a particular genre
2) You didn't tailor the skill list to that genre
3) The characters that were created aren't fitted well to that genre.

Look, it's hard to make an "incompetent" character in Fate. Only one that's competent in areas that don't fit with what you had in mind. So, either go through the "same page" type of exercise like I mentioned above, or create a scenario that's more aligned with the areas of competence that the characters have.

And that shouldn't be a lot of work, frankly. Too much prep in a Fate game isn't really a great idea, as it generally means you're taking away some level of player agency. Here's something I wrote a while ago on how I prep Fate games:

https://plus.google.com/108546067488075210468/posts/K2E4ivswdQZ

You'll note the high "plus" count, including one from some guy named Fred Hicks. Apparently, a number of people agree with this - and it's not that different from what some other guy that knows nothing about Fate named Leonard Balsera wrote in the yahoo! FateRPG group: (You'll have to find his response)

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/FateRPG/message/25088

Tell you what - I'll even help you out. Send me the write-ups of the characters, and the rough outline of what you've got, and I'll see what I can do to try and put things together. Cool?

Zahhak
2013-08-12, 02:04 PM
The first step is to make sure that everyone is sold on, and agrees to, playing the same game.

Actually, they did. They really enjoyed what I had come up with and were getting into the idea of playing wilderness adventurers in (largely) unexplored area. At some point in the middle of character creation they went way off the rails and made a soap opera.


Um, how the hell does that happen in Fate Core? Setting your skill list is like the first thing you do, as your skill list is kind of a statement of "these are things that are important in this game". If someone makes a character that's incompetent, to a great extent that's on the GM for including irrelevant skills. "Would this skill be a good peak skill" is one of the questions you should always ask before putting a skill in your skill list. And if the answer is "no", the skill likely shouldn't be there.

Um, in Fate Core, yeah, the setting and "what the game is about" is collaborative. If someone wants to be "PI to the stars", then one of a few things has happened:

1) You're making an assumption that the group hasn't agreed to
2) You just need to find a way to get him out of his element

This game is really only happening in Fate because I wanted a system that deemphasized dice rolling mechanics and emphasized collaborative story telling. By the time we decided Fate would be the best system to run in I already had the setting and plot. And before this I had never played in Fate, so I just didn't mess with the skills. I don't actually have much interest in Fate as a specific system, I just wanted one that didn't require dice rolling every five minutes, and that it was free certainly helped.

kyoryu
2013-08-12, 04:19 PM
This game is really only happening in Fate because I wanted a system that deemphasized dice rolling mechanics and emphasized collaborative story telling. By the time we decided Fate would be the best system to run in I already had the setting and plot. And before this I had never played in Fate, so I just didn't mess with the skills. I don't actually have much interest in Fate as a specific system, I just wanted one that didn't require dice rolling every five minutes, and that it was free certainly helped.

Fate can have quite a lot of die-rolling. It just drives players to the die-rolls that *matter*. It does de-emphasize system-twiddling, though.

What are the peak skills of the "useless" characters?

Your choices are still either going to boil down to:

1) Take the characters created as a statement of interest, and work the game around that (doesn't mean it has to be a soap opera)
2) Have the players rework/tweak their characters around the stated scenario (in which case I'd suggest tweaking the skill list so that it makes sense for the game, to prevent some of these issues)
3) Talk to the players, and come to an agreement on what the hell you're going to all play
4) Don't play with them

I don't see the soap opera elements as necessarily problematic, myself. They're just background ties that will come up to some extent during the game, but doesn't mean the game has to center on them. Think Fringe - there's lots of intertwined relationships in that series, but the vast majority of the time is spent on investigating weird stuff.

To me, the more problematic issue is if you've got characters that have skills that are simply inappropriate. Sitting on the sidelines ain't gonna be fun. I've probably got a bit more Fate experience than you, so if you want to PM me some of the characters and the scenario, I'd be happy to look at it and give you my impression of how problematic I think it will actually be, or advice on how to go forward.

SowZ
2013-08-12, 04:19 PM
As a GM, here is what I do in this situation.

"Alright. Well, you guys are all travelling together. We will start off with you already a group. Come up with the reason or goal. If one of you feels like it isn't in character to stay and leaves, cool, but you'll have to make a new character."

Trinoya
2013-08-13, 03:00 AM
"it is the GM's responsibility to find a way to fit the characters in the story"

No it isn't. I've seen this mentality before. I've seen a lot of PCs die because of this mentality.

As a GM it is my job to provide a world for you to play in... to provide challenges, obstacles, and stories... but at no point is it my job to cater to your character. My job is hard enough without having to figure out how to make Suzzy Mcpooppantsonhead who is blind, deaf, and dumb contribute to the storyline.

It's the players job to make their character contribute to the story through their own actions. In the most literal sense you don't even need to provide a story for them.. you just need to make sure the rules are followed and be an arbiter based on their actions. If they want to go off and do random thing x, let them... but while they are doing that make sure to mention, often, how the local BBEG just glassed the town three towns over and is still heading in their direction.

On a final note: Next time they saddle you with the 'it's your job to make our characters work in this story' take out the eraser and start fixing up their character histories for them. See how fast they change their tune.

Erock
2013-08-13, 07:24 AM
They have a reason to be in the same place already, as the high amount of inter-relation here would suggest they've developed other relaionships nearby. All you really need is a plot hook; the murder, talk of the murder, an animal attack, etc. The soap opera is their job, at least until it gets brought to the fore-front. The subtle/unknown relationships will affect how character's act towards each other, but that won't affect anyone who doesn't know or care about the relationship. The story is your job, the character's are the players job, how the two interact is meant to be a collaboration.

Zahhak
2013-08-13, 10:24 AM
Fate can have quite a lot of die-rolling. It just drives players to the die-rolls that *matter*. It does de-emphasize system-twiddling, though.

It's a hell of a lot less than in HERO so I'm happy.


As a GM it is my job to provide a world for you to play in... to provide challenges, obstacles, and stories... but at no point is it my job to cater to your character.

And see, that's kind of the mentally our group has always run with, along with "the GM doesn't **** around with character creation".


They have a reason to be in the same place already, as the high amount of inter-relation here would suggest they've developed other relaionships nearby

Actually, no. None of the players are actually from the town they're in, and the longest stayed character has only been here a month. It's all just a huge coincidence that everyone is here.

elliott20
2013-08-13, 11:31 AM
I was going to write a long post but then kyoryu pretty much hit up every point that I wanted to address. The problem is not the characters they made, it's expectations between you and them.

Fate Core can handle this kind of situation you described. It's designed to. But it will only work if you are expecting to play the same type of game.

Drama CAN work to enhance the game. Look at Firefly. It's got quite a bit of drama, but it's not the main focus of the show.

I don't know all the elements in this situation, but I can't help but feel that all of this needs is just a shift in perspective.

kyoryu
2013-08-13, 01:07 PM
No it isn't. I've seen this mentality before. I've seen a lot of PCs die because of this mentality.

As a GM it is my job to provide a world for you to play in... to provide challenges, obstacles, and stories... but at no point is it my job to cater to your character. My job is hard enough without having to figure out how to make Suzzy Mcpooppantsonhead who is blind, deaf, and dumb contribute to the storyline.

Eh, depends on the game, and the extremes. In Fate, for instance, it's pretty much an assumption that the game/story will revolve around the characters - think of the TV show Fringe. The plot would be different if it weren't those five or so people.

In other types of games, there's less expectations.

OTOH, I don't know that it's a GM's job to cater to deliberately "nerfed" characters, in any game. I've already said my piece on how this plays into Fate and the skill list, so I won't rehash it.


It's the players job to make their character contribute to the story through their own actions. In the most literal sense you don't even need to provide a story for them.. you just need to make sure the rules are followed and be an arbiter based on their actions. If they want to go off and do random thing x, let them... but while they are doing that make sure to mention, often, how the local BBEG just glassed the town three towns over and is still heading in their direction.

I agree with you to a great extent, but again, it depends on the game you're playing. For D&D what you're saying is pretty accurate, especially for some campaign types. For Fate, the assumptions are slightly different.


On a final note: Next time they saddle you with the 'it's your job to make our characters work in this story' take out the eraser and start fixing up their character histories for them. See how fast they change their tune.

In any case, I don't think "it's the GM's job". That's just, oh, I don't know, crappy. Especially in Fate, it's kind of a collaboration between the GM and the players.


It's a hell of a lot less than in HERO so I'm happy.

Craps has less die rolling than HERO.

elliott20
2013-08-13, 02:46 PM
I would go as far as to say that the very mentality driving Fate is very different from the mentality that drove D&D. D&D, while not meant to be positioned as such, has always put the players and GM in a semi-adversarial relationship. The GM is there to make all the dangers in the world, and the players just HAPPENED to inhabit the world.

Fate takes the other direction where your game is designed based on the players. You're basically picking up the character sheets, and then picking aspects that you intend to hit up for your next session. The game is structured to work with the players as the starting point, not an incidental of the campaign.

It's why I'm really thinking it's just a matter of perspective

kyoryu
2013-08-13, 03:03 PM
I would go as far as to say that the very mentality driving Fate is very different from the mentality that drove D&D. D&D, while not meant to be positioned as such, has always put the players and GM in a semi-adversarial relationship. The GM is there to make all the dangers in the world, and the players just HAPPENED to inhabit the world.

I totally agree. Getting over this hurdle and really understanding the mindset of Fate in terms of "what a game should be like" is the biggest block I see for people new to the game system.

Well, that, not looking for stacking bonuses, writing aspects, getting used to failing frequently, and how to abuse Create Advantage.

Toofey
2013-08-13, 03:22 PM
I would just point out that the most obvious solution is that mysterious forces are interested in the romance novelist and the rest of the characters revolve around this.

Delwugor
2013-08-13, 03:45 PM
Input?
1. Get with your players and work out expectations. Everyone needs to be on the same page for any good game.
2. Check out Murder She Wrote (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder,_She_Wrote). A romance writer would be a fantastic variation that could lead to fantastic and unexpected situations.
3. Learn what Fate is about, because it sounds like you're not sure though your players are.
4. Watch some podcasts on Fate - there is a goodgle + group and there are many game hangout podcasts and recordings there.
5. In Fate, aspects and stunts tend to have more impact than skill selection. You want to have many game, scene and situational aspects in your game, besides your player's character aspects.

Erock
2013-08-13, 04:42 PM
Actually, no. None of the players are actually from the town they're in, and the longest stayed character has only been here a month. It's all just a huge coincidence that everyone is here.

That's even better. No one in this town cares about their relationship. It still remains their job to deal with inter party relationships. Even if an outside party is needed to reveal something, that is better left for later in the game. It helps to be malleable enough to make the relationships play a part in the story, but the world doesn't revolve around PCs.

Magesmiley
2013-08-13, 04:51 PM
I think that the notion of laying out the starting situation and asking them how their characters got into it has some merits. It puts the onus of making the characters fit into the story on the players. Once they fit into the start of your adventure, moving into the rest of the adventure should be easier.