Argument over the Druid's Awaken Spell

[Ekul]

I'm GMing a campaign, where a player attempted to create an awakened tree as a player character. On its own, yeah, I can deal with that. It's got an interesting ring to it. I'd be okay with that. However, he's attempting to bring optimization into this, and I'm entirely certain that, rules-legal or not, it's unreasonable to allow this character in the current group. So I've banned it, but I also question whether he would even be allowed to do it at all, outside of homebrew. (At his behest, we've decided not to use any homebrew, or if we do, RAI.)

His argument: Druids can cast Awaken on a tree to bring it to life with mental stats of 3d6/3d6/3d6. Druids are also capable of casting meta-magic, same as any caster. Therefore, a level 21 or so Druid may be capable of using awaken using Empower spell and Maximize spell- which would increse the numeric effects of the stats to absurd levels (casting it as a level 10 spell.) This would make the mental stats 27/27/27. While the player's handbook has no rules for playing as an awakened creature, the Savage Species sourcebook does.

My argument: My argument against allowing such a creature is three-fold. RAW, I agree that a druid is capable of applying metamagic in such a way is a passable interpretation of the rules. However, allowing this as a form of character creation is invalid by the same strict interpretation. The rules that allow awakened creatures as a part of character creation enforces that the character rolls 4d6 for each mental stat as a normal player character would- it does not leave any opening for the alteration of these rolls. Furthermore, using a partially statted creature (A druid with two specific feats), especially an epic level creature, in the creation of your character is philosophically unsound- for there to exist a very specific creature that the DM must require that has two specific feats that may be unsuitable for the campaign setting. Finally, if we decided to go with RAI that savage species would allow any tree created by any druid to be statted, it is a valid argument that it is intended that the variable mental stats given to the tree are not numerical effects of the spell itself, but numerical effects of the creature gaining sentience, and thus not applicable from the metamagic.

I'd like to here any thoughts by the community on this matter, I don't expect everyone to agree with my logic, but I'm pretty sure you guys have some educated opinions on the matter, and I'd be interested to hear them.

[forsaken1111]

I would agree entirely with you that the 3d6 roll for the mental stats are a function of awakening into sentience and not a numerical effect of the spell. RAI the spell gives the tree a mind, but the sort of mind it has will be determined by that die roll.

[Urpriest]

Savage Species has no rules for playing an Awakened tree, so the point is moot.

[forsaken1111]

Alternatively you could slap a level adjustment on it and call it a day.

[Fax Celestis]

I would agree entirely with you that the 3d6 roll for the mental stats are a function of awakening into sentience and not a numerical effect of the spell. RAI the spell gives the tree a mind, but the sort of mind it has will be determined by that die roll.

Agreed.

Also note that Maximize does not maximize Empower dice. It'd be (if maximize were applicable in this instance) 18+(3d3 or 1.5d6 or 3d6/2, however you prefer).

[Ekul]

Oh, right. I guess he was trying to argue instead Empower+Intensify, which is even more egregious, now that I look over the way he crunched his numbers.

The part of savage species that I refer to that (incompletely) stats trees is the bottom of page 22- so I guess there's also not enough information to truly stat a tree anyway.

[Urpriest]

Oh, right. I guess he was trying to argue instead Empower+Intensify, which is even more egregious, now that I look over the way he crunched his numbers.

The part of savage species that I refer to that (incompletely) stats trees is the bottom of page 22- so I guess there's also not enough information to truly stat a tree anyway.

Yeah, all that section in Savage Species does is restate how Awaken works. It doesn't say anything about giving Awakened creatures level adjustments.

[Demidos]

I could see the rolls being maximized/empowered, but in the same way that

1) A player that start as undead cannot immediately presume to have the corpsecrafter line of feats while in a desecrate area (+4 hp/lvl, +dex (i think) and a bunch of other random +s)

2) A player cannot dictate that their father/mother is an epic wizard and "would totally have wished (as in wish, the spell) +5 to all stats for their beloved child"

I don't see his argument working.

In summary, as a player, he cannot dictate the world's NPCs nor their actions. Yes, its possible that it happened, but it is up to the DM.

Also, Intensify would mean a level 27 druid, per skill ranks. To simply assume a (HIGH) epic-level caster sinking XP into creating you as a PC is just ridiculous.
Are you sure he wasn't joking?

[Chronos]

If we're talking about an epic druid anyway, then he could also use Intensified, for mental scores of 36.

But this is absolutely not valid for character creation. It's really no different from saying "Oh, by the way, my dad was an epic character, and he left me all his wealth", or "Oh, by the way, my mom was a goddess, so I have a divine rank".

The player could, of course, create a druid character, grind up in levels to the point where he can do this himself, and cast super-awaken on a tree. But the resulting tree would be an NPC, and while it might be favorably disposed towards the druid that created it, it would not just take that druid's orders.

[Ekul]

Also, Intensify would mean a level 27 druid, per skill ranks. To simply assume a (HIGH) epic-level caster sinking XP into creating you as a PC is just ridiculous.
Are you sure he wasn't joking?

I wish. The man expects me to allow a Intensified Awakened Tree Cerebremancer without a single hint of irony, and ranted at me for at least two hours when I wouldn't allow it. Not to mention, the party's only level 8, and consisted of a Warblade, a Barbarian, a fighter and a (non optimized) Druid. Of those four, only the Warblade was experienced in DnD, and of the next three, the Barbarian and Druid had never played DnD before!

[forsaken1111]

Allow it, and then pit him against the druid who created him. :smalltongue:

[JaronK]

Just give him an appropriate level adjust and be done with it. However, that LA would be far higher than 8. So he can't do that. Thus, he should only get a lower level version (without an Epic Druid).

Honestly though, it sounds like this player needs to reign it in. Awakened Trees are not generally available to be played as... and he'll likely have serious problems fitting in dungeons, so it's actually a really poor idea.

JaronK

[Fax Celestis]

Oh, right. I guess he was trying to argue instead Empower+Intensify, which is even more egregious, now that I look over the way he crunched his numbers.

The part of savage species that I refer to that (incompletely) stats trees is the bottom of page 22- so I guess there's also not enough information to truly stat a tree anyway.

Intensify is a +7 adjust. Where is he finding a druid with 12th level slots? We're looking at someone with a pre-buff-post-item minimum 34 Wis (so no owl's wisdom) and who's taken Improved Spell Capacity at least three times. It's not unreasonable for an epic caster, but unless you play in a very different kind of world than I do, a caster capable of that is the kind of person who is on their way to either destroy the world or another plane, become a god, or is some sort of plot object. And that's not even counting Empower.

Empower + Maximize is still a total +5, so you'd still need an epic caster who's taken Improved Spell Capacity at least once. Still not just a random dude walking down the street.

[forsaken1111]

Also inform him that he'd need to be rooted in strong sunlight for 2d4+4 hours per day to maintain the required hydration and sunlight exposure necessary for his cells unless he's going to bring himself a pot of sugar water into the dungeons and stand in that.

[georgie_leech]

Allow it, and then pit him against the druid who created him. :smalltongue:

"Okay, your first objective is to escape from the control of the Epic Druid that created you for a specific purpose. Have fun with that. In the mean time, what's the rest of the party doing?"

[forsaken1111]

Perhaps the epic druid is actually opposed to the party and sent the tree man to infiltrate their ranks!

Force him to roleplay the meeting with the party and balance the conflicting demands of his epic level druid handler and his duties in the party.

Step 1 is getting the party to accept a huge tree man thing that can't even fit through doors.

[Ekul]

Also inform him that he'd need to be rooted in strong sunlight for 2d4+4 hours per day to maintain the required hydration and sunlight exposure necessary for his cells unless he's going to bring himself a pot of sugar water into the dungeons and stand in that.

Well, it's more of a wilderness campaign than a dungeon-crawler. He wouldn't have that much trouble for the most part.

Actually, I completely neglected to mention the setting itself: mostly low magic, and everybody in a civilized town fears magic, and a sort of 11th century europe sort of deal.

He'd be ineligible to enter any town or buy anything.

He doesn't even sorta fit in to the campaign setting.


Edit: I should also mention that it's totally in character for me to have the druid turn on him, my NPCs are notoriously untrustworthy.

[forsaken1111]

Huh... so really this would just in in cries of "Tree demon!" and burning.

Honestly if I was in the party and that thing walked up to me I'd kill it and hope to use the wood for something special, since the world is naturally low magic any source of magic is precious.

[Demidos]

I wish. The man expects me to allow a Intensified Awakened Tree Cerebremancer without a single hint of irony, and ranted at me for at least two hours when I wouldn't allow it. Not to mention, the party's only level 8, and consisted of a Warblade, a Barbarian, a fighter and a (non optimized) Druid. Of those four, only the Warblade was experienced in DnD, and of the next three, the Barbarian and Druid had never played DnD before!

Ask how you are supposed to challenge the party with him in it.

Stare at him silently while he thinks.

If he says something like "I don't know, that's not my problem, you're the DM." then tell him to think up an encounter where all the given players contribute.

Stare silently until he sees how ridiculous he's being.

[forsaken1111]

Allow it, and then after a few easy encounters start dropping hints about an oncoming horde of dire beavers.

[Lafaellar]

Question is:
Do you want him to play such a character (animated tree is not quite the common call) or not?

If yes, tell him that he has to roll/pay for his stats like every character needs to.
If no, tell him you won't allow him to play a tree as a character.

There is basically no need to even have this discussion, because as the GM you can simply outlaw the basic idea of playing a tree as a character if you want to.

For the sake of argument:
RAW it says "An awakened tree has characteristics as if it were an animated object, except that it gains the plant type and its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are each 3d6."

Which for me RAI translates to:
There is a template which is called "awakened" and the template is explained in the spells description instead of an extra entry in the monster manual.
Saying that maximising/empowering this spell also affects the template would be like saying "If I maximise the animate dead spell, each hitdice of the skeleton is maximised."

[Demidos]

The OP did state that he'd already banned it.

Edit: I would suggest against "letting it fly" at all, as the posters above are suggesting. This will just lead to resentment that the DM is "DM fiating to kill me".

If the problem player is new to D&D and using online help, then try to explain that D&D is cooperative and that it doesn't really work with one player that much more powerful than the others, as it becomes boring for everyone (he can curbstomp the encounters, the encounters curbstomp the others). Explain that he's probably looking to play a solo campaign if he wants to be that powerful, unless everyone is.

If the problem player has played before.....point out that an ADEPT with those stats could easily curbstomp the rest of the party? Alone? And if he wants to play more high power, tell him he can offer suggestions to the others in the party on optimization, if everyone wants to optomize. Theres better ways to do it than that.

[Segev]

Personally, I do not think t out of line to allow this... Provided he can pay for the casting of such a spell out of his starting gold. If he can, it's little different than paying for any other permanent spell effects.

[forsaken1111]

I was being facetious in my suggestions to let it happen. Don't do it. Ever.

Link him to this thread.

[Chronos]

OK, with this further information, I'd say the best solution is to just say "NO". To the player, not just to this particular trick. It sounds like he's just trying to "win D&D", with no regard at all to making things fun for everyone else, and you just don't need someone like that in your gaming group.