Whos is granting Durkon's spells?

[Narren]

I'm sure that this has been brought up already, but I didn't find it. Who is granting Durkon's spells now? I don't imagine Thor is too happy about his recent changes.

[Steward]

I never thought of that. Maybe Nergal?

Or maybe he still has some Thor spells left over since he hasn't rested since before he died? Huh, I'm not sure either!

[SavageWombat]

Nobody is granting Durkon's spells - he's an unaffiliated cleric at this point. Unless he suddenly turns around and prays to Thor, which would be surprising.

[SaintRidley]

The universe is, currently. No deity is necessary.

[Gift Jeraff]

Right now he's just using his leftover spells from Thor. But when he prepares spells at dusk he will presumably gain them from the Plane of Negative Energy.

[Malistrae]

He is a non-theistic vampire cleric, so he gets his spells from the Negative Energy Plane probably. Later he may start worshiping a deity. The forum seems to favor Nergal and Hela as possible patrons. Worshiping Thor would be ridiculous. Why would a good deity grant spells to an unholy abomination?
Edit: Oops, ninja'd.

[Aquillion]

I'm sure that this has been brought up already, but I didn't find it. Who is granting Durkon's spells now? I don't imagine Thor is too happy about his recent changes.The rules for vampires explicitly state that if you worshiped a Good god before being turned, you can still cast, and that you get your spells from an unspecified non-theistic source.

[FujinAkari]

The rules for vampires explicitly state that if you worshiped a Good god before being turned, you can still cast, and that you get your spells from an unspecified non-theistic source.

It actually isn't explicit, but it is strongly implied.

What the rules actually say is:

A) Non-theistic clerics can exist and can simply worship an ideal rather than a specific deity. This is in the cleric class description.
B) Vampire Clerics will lose the ability to turn undead and instead begin to rebuke undead. Additionally, their domains will change to two of the following: Death, Destruction, Evil, and Chaos (if I remember correctly, I may have Chaos wrong)



So no, it doesn't -explicitly- say that good characters become non-theistic vampires, but it certainly leaves the possibility open :)

[EnragedFilia]

One of the available vampire domains is trickery.

[Kish]

Additionally, their domains will change to two of the following: Death, Destruction, Evil, and Chaos (if I remember correctly, I may have Chaos wrong)
You've got Chaos right.

You've, oddly enough, got Death wrong. Chaos, Destruction, Evil, and Trickery are the choices.

[TrixiePixie]

The rules for vampires explicitly state that if you worshiped a Good god before being turned, you can still cast, and that you get your spells from an unspecified non-theistic source.

Actually, the *rules* don't explicitly state anything at all, that's just the Giant's take on it which by no means makes it the established rule.
I really wish people would stop using this "explicitly" thing, when it's really not.

[Kish]

You're not Mantine, are you?

[Narren]

I think I was remembering a rule from 2nd edition. If I remember correctly (which I may not) you immediately lose all spell casting until you pick up a new patron deity.

[FlawedParadigm]

Elvis Presley.

[Tathum]

Whoever it is, I would assume its a deity with the spheres of Death and Destruction. This way, when he returns to his homeland, he starts a new church and spreads the word of a new Dwarven Deity...

[Sir_Leorik]

I'm sure that this has been brought up already, but I didn't find it. Who is granting Durkon's spells now? I don't imagine Thor is too happy about his recent changes.

DEATH. The very nature of the Negative Energy Plane, the mysterious Dark Powers that rule Ravenloft, the Dark Side of the Force, and beer are also good candidates.

Look, in D&D 3.5 a Cleric doesn't need to worship a god. Technically you can be a Cleric of a "cause". (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html) These are called non-theistic Clerics, and non-Evil Clerics who become Vampires are stuck as non-theistic Clerics with access to the Chaos, Destruction, Evil, or Trickery domains.

[Sir_Leorik]

Whoever it is, I would assume its a deity with the spheres of Death and Destruction. This way, when he returns to his homeland, he starts a new church and spreads the word of a new Dwarven Deity...

Non-theistic Vampire Clerics don't get access to the Death domain; they get access to Chaos, Destruction, Evil and Trickery.

[SavageWombat]

Non-theistic Vampire Clerics don't get access to the Death domain; they get access to Chaos, Destruction, Evil and Trickery.

That's an interesting point. If Durkon had been hit with a Helm of Opposite Alignment he wouldn't be limited to just four domains - he'd just pick new ones from the full list. Why should vampires be limited?

[EnragedFilia]

Probably because the Monster Manual is supposed to be used by a DM trying to throw a decent encounter in the players' way without having to think up a whole backstory for it. Using it to overanalyze stuff on the internet is just an extra bonus.

[Sir_Leorik]

That's an interesting point. If Durkon had been hit with a Helm of Opposite Alignment he wouldn't be limited to just four domains - he'd just pick new ones from the full list. Why should vampires be limited?

Ask The Sage. :smalltongue:

[Domino Quartz]

You're not Mantine, are you?

Who's that?

[Silverionmox]

The first edition of D&D said that spells of clerics are "granted by their god". Then in all subsequent editions they took every opportunity to turn clerics into a variety of wizard (researching spells, scribing scrolls, etc.), while still being unable to drop the "patron deity" flavor, instead relying on contorted ad-hoc explanations.

[Malistrae]

The first edition of D&D said that spells of clerics are "granted by their god". Then in all subsequent editions they took every opportunity to turn clerics into a variety of wizard (researching spells, scribing scrolls, etc.), while still being unable to drop the "patron deity" flavor, instead relying on contorted ad-hoc explanations.

I think that the whole "researching new spells" for a cleric means the s/he is studying new ways to utilize the divine energy/magic that his/her god gave him/her. Though I agree that the cleric's flavor definitely moved through the editions towards an interpretation where the deity is simply a distant power-source and not an active participant in the cleric's actions.

[137beth]

The negative energy plane.

[Sir_Leorik]

The first edition of D&D said that spells of clerics are "granted by their god". Then in all subsequent editions they took every opportunity to turn clerics into a variety of wizard (researching spells, scribing scrolls, etc.), while still being unable to drop the "patron deity" flavor, instead relying on contorted ad-hoc explanations.

AD&D 1E and 2E rules stated that Clerics could regain spells of 2nd level or lower even when cut off from their deity. Planescape had rules for Clerics operating several Planes removed from their Power/deity, as well as Power Keys which compensated for the weaker connection.

D&D 3E was the first edition of the game to include Core rules allowing non-theistic clerics. 2E actually tightened the bond between the Cleric and the religion/deity he followed, with the Cleric spells divided into Spheres, doled out according to pantheon or portfolio, whereas 1E Clerics were all identical. (Even Evil Clerics were identical to Good Clerics.)

All examples of "non-theistic" Clerics in 2E were exceptions, such as Factol Terrance of the Athar, who believed the "Powers" were frauds, and worshipped the Great Unknown that he believed to be the source of Divine Power; or lunatics like Alfred Timothy (Darklord of Verbrek) or Yagno Petrovna (Darklord of G'Henna), who believed in false gods, and were granted spells by the DARK POWERS of Ravenloft directly.

One of the designers' goals in 3E was to make the game less restrictive. One way was allowing non-theistic Clerics, who serve a philosophy or a cause, rather than a specific deity or pantheon. The power creep came much later, when 3.5 was released. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

One of the designers' goals in 3E was to make the game less restrictive. One way was allowing non-theistic Clerics, who serve a philosophy or a cause, rather than a specific deity or pantheon. The power creep came much later, when 3.5 was released. :smalltongue:

Err, 3.0 was the stronger of the two. Have you seen 3.0 Haste, Fly and Darkness? :smalltongue: