Chameleon Floating Feat on Steroids: Best LA 0 Race in 3.5?

[Black_Zawisza]

By RAW, when you Alter Self into a Human, you gain the racial feat and retroactive skill points per level. While very good for high-level casters able to spare the spell slots for repeated castings, they have endless numbers of ways to break the game anyway. However, the Fey'ri (from the book Races of Faerun), an LA +3 race resulting from selective breeding among the Fey nobility, possess a similarly powerful (but not gamebreaking on its own) ability: Alter Self into humanoid creatures At Will. The Fey'ri are Outsiders (Planetouched), so the Player's Guide to Faerun rules can be used to reduce their LA to 0 by replacing their Outsider type with Humanoid.

Do you suddenly need max ranks in Use Magic Device? Alter Self into a Human, and distribute your new skill ranks accordingly. Oh I'm sorry, you meant to say Use Psionic Device? Not a problem - wait a round, Alter Self into something else, and then in the round after that change back into a Human.

Same goes for feats. Any Craft (Magical Item) feat on demand? Any situationally useful combat feat? Any Shape Soulmeld feat (any [CON - 10] of which /will remain in effect forever/ until it's dispelled, in which case just Alter Self and reshape them again)?

Want to buy a Crown of the White Raven/Ironheart Vest to let you use White Raven Tactics/IRON. HEART. SUUUUUURGE! , but the one-maneuver prerequisite getting you down? Take the feat Martial Study ([Maneuver with no prereqs]), buy the item, and then switch the feat away. You only need the feat long enough for it to qualify you for the second maneuver - once you have it, even if you remove the first maneuver, the second maneuver will qualify you to take itself. IHS and WRT are yours permanently, and you didn't have to expend any feats or class levels to get them!

Suppose your DM says there aren't any crafters in the world with a high enough level to craft your +5 Sword of Death Defiance. Take Leadership and obtain a crafter cohort two levels below you. After you Alter Self and lose the feat, the ex-cohort is now a part of the campaign setting, and you can purchase the services you desire.

Not to mention that the Fey'ri base stats are nothing to scoff at. +2 Int +2 Dex, -2 Con, Winged Flight, and selection from a number of special abilities. Of these, there are three powerful ones that you can select one from. DR 10/+1, Dimension Door 1/day, or Enervation 1/day. Hells to the yeah!

All of this and more is available at Level 1. The possibilities...



TL;DR: What feats become especially good once you can change them every other round? Here's a list that I'll compile for now...

Shape Soulmeld (Various)
Extra Spell
Item Creation

[Lateral]

If you're using the Lesser Planetouched rules to turn an LA +3 race into an LA +0 race... well, yeah, of course it's broken. Really, you're just stating the obvious.

[The Viscount]

It's a tad uncertain whether you gain the human's free feat through alter self, as I suppose that's technically a racial bonus feat but it seems like it was meant for things like elves racial martial weapon proficiency (bow). As for the humans extra skill points, you must convince me on that one. Alter self does not list skill points as something you gain, only racial skill bonuses.

[Divide by Zero]

Suppose your DM says there aren't any crafters in the world with a high enough level to craft your +5 Sword of Death Defiance. Take Leadership and obtain a crafter cohort two levels below you. After you Alter Self and lose the feat, the ex-cohort is now a part of the campaign setting, and you can purchase the services you desire.

Leadership doesn't work that way.

Also, I'm not sure alter self works that way either. Where in the spell description are you getting the feat/skill points from?

[Black_Zawisza]

If you're using the Lesser Planetouched rules to turn an LA +3 race into an LA +0 race... well, yeah, of course it's broken. Really, you're just stating the obvious.
Hardly. Without abusing Alter Self in this way, the Fey'ri's abilities merely make it an excellent LA 0 race - I wouldn't take it for LA +1, let alone a +2 or +3. If it were as obvious as you say, we would have heard of other people discussing this method or similar ones to obtain any feat in 3.5 on demand. Care to share a link to these musings?



It's a tad uncertain whether you gain the human's free feat through alter self, as I suppose that's technically a racial bonus feat but it seems like it was meant for things like elves racial martial weapon proficiency (bow). As for the humans extra skill points, you must convince me on that one. Alter self does not list skill points as something you gain, only racial skill bonuses.
Like I said, this works by the Rules As Written.

How are "4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level" not racial skill bonuses?


Leadership doesn't work that way.
It doesn't? Could you elaborate?


Also, I'm not sure alter self works that way either. Where in the spell description are you getting the feat/skill points from?



You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth).

[Divide by Zero]

How are "4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level" not racial skill bonuses?
Skill points and skill bonuses are not at all the same thing. And an extra feat is not the same as a bonus feat (which has a specific rules meaning), though I suppose that's more subjective.


It doesn't? Could you elaborate?


A character can try to attract a cohort of a particular race, class, and alignment.
Emphasis mine. The DM is under no obligation to create a NPC out of thin air just because you want it.

[Black_Zawisza]

Skill points and skill bonuses are not at all the same thing. And an extra feat is not the same as a bonus feat (which has a specific rules meaning), though I suppose that's more subjective.

Can you quote an official source to back that up?



Emphasis mine. The DM is under no obligation to create a NPC out of thin air just because you want it.
A player can attempt that anyway, though. Making a player take a feat in pursuit of the cohort mechanic carries an implied probability of success...though at that point we've entered the realm of RAI, so you're right on Leadership. That would be a pretty niche use anyway, I'm more interested in applications that increase a character's personal power.

[Divide by Zero]

Can you quote an official source to back that up?

Unless you want to argue that humans don't have to meet prerequisites for their extra feat, MM page 7 makes a pretty clear distinction (edit: also here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm#feats)). The difference between skill points and skill bonuses should be self-evident.

[Black_Zawisza]

Unless you want to argue that humans don't have to meet prerequisites for their extra feat, MM page 7 makes a pretty clear distinction (edit: also here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm#feats)). The difference between skill points and skill bonuses should be self-evident.
The PHB makes reference to both a human extra feat (p13) and bonus feat (p87), so it appears to be covered either way.

I don't see how it's self-evident. The skill points per level a human acquires are racially derived, of or pertaining to the skill mechanics, and makes the human more effective at the skills those points are used for. Unless it can be shown that racial skill bonuses specifically always mean "Hide +4", it seems that Alter Self'd humans should get them.

[Tengu_temp]

Good luck playing with a DM who will let you pull this off.

[Talya]

Pretty sure the bonus feat works by RAW (although attracting a new cohort could easily take days or even weeks longer than the spell's duration, so good luck with that). I believe it even fits the spirit of RAI, even if they weren't thinking of the flexibility there, they definitely intended you to get racial bonus feats, of which the human extra feat is undeniably called such.

Skill points, not so much. I mean, I understand your argument. However, RAI it clearly doesn't apply. It's for Elven +2 to spot and such. RAW, it's ambiguous. The "Extra Skill Points" is never called a "skill bonus" anywhere. Due to RAI, I would not allow it.

[Divide by Zero]

Like I said, the feat part is a little subjective, but I wouldn't allow it regardless just because of how easily breakable it is. If you really need an official source for the distinction between skill points and skill bonuses, it's a well-hidden secret in the middle of the Skills Summary (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/skillsSummary.htm) page:

Skill Ranks

A character’s number of ranks in a skill is based on how many skill points a character has invested in a skill.

...

Miscellaneous Modifiers

Miscellaneous modifiers include racial bonuses
Skill points give you skill ranks, racial bonuses give you skill bonuses. Everything I have ever seen has treated them as separate things except for what you're trying to argue.

[Ruethgar]

I think there may have been a set of human variants that gave skill bonuses instead of ranks. I can't for the life of me find where so probably a dragon mag.

[Black_Zawisza]

Like I said, the feat part is a little subjective, but I wouldn't allow it regardless just because of how easily breakable it is.
Maybe not, but that doesn't stop Pun-Pun or any of the other overpowered builds people construct here from being legally valid. RAW validity is all I'm concerned with.


Skill points give you skill ranks, racial bonuses give you skill bonuses.
All true. But surely you aren't going to deny that skill points give you skill bonuses? And that in this case, those skill points are racially derived?


Everything I have ever seen has treated them as separate things except for what you're trying to argue.We wouldn't expect a wide array of literature on the subject though, right? The only conceivable methods of acquiring "racial skill bonuses" would be in the form of either raw bonuses to particular skills, or skill points. And in all of 3.5, only one race serves as a source of the latter.

[Piggy Knowles]

All true. But surely you aren't going to deny that skill points give you skill bonuses? And that in this case, those skill points are racially derived?

Skill points cannot give you bonuses in and of themselves. You can use them to purchase skill ranks, which might give you bonuses (assuming you've got a full rank), or to purchase skill tricks, which almost never give you bonuses.

[Curmudgeon]

But surely you aren't going to deny that skill points give you skill bonuses?
I'll surely deny that. Skill points could give you skill ranks, with different results depending on your class skills, the particular class you advance at each level, and your current level. However, only direct bonuses, not factors leading to those bonuses, are gained via Alter Self. A Human could also gain ½ rank in a different cross-class skill at each level instead, gaining no skill bonuses.

You get exactly what the spell specifies, and nothing more.

[Black_Zawisza]

Skill points cannot give you bonuses in and of themselves. You can use them to purchase skill ranks, which might give you bonuses (assuming you've got a full rank), or to purchase skill tricks, which almost never give you bonuses.
That's true. But there's no reason one wouldn't be able acquire skill ranks from Alter Self, right? If you're Alter Selfing at sixth level, just declare "I want to be a human who happens to have 2 more ranks in Tumble and 4 more ranks in Use Magic Device", right? Those are certainly racial skill bonuses.


You get exactly what the spell specifies, and nothing more.
Not sure how this line is productive. If I disagreed with that, then this discussion would be impossible. The whole point is that we disagree on what the spell specifies.

[Curmudgeon]

If you're Alter Selfing at sixth level, just declare "I want to be a human who happens to have 2 more ranks in Tumble and 4 more ranks in Use Magic Device", right? Those are certainly racial skill bonuses.
No, only partly. They're derived from a mix of class levels and racial characteristics. Alter Self only gives you purely racial bonuses. There is no guarantee that every Human at level 6 could be allowed +2 ranks in Tumble and +4 ranks in Use Magic Device; those are class-dependent computations rather than racial bonuses.

Plus, if you're arguing that all of this is racial, you can't use Alter Self at all if you're taking the form of a 6th level Human:

The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level.

[Black_Zawisza]

No, only partly. They're derived from a mix of class levels and racial characteristics. Alter Self only gives you purely racial bonuses. There is no guarantee that every Human at level 6 could be allowed +2 ranks in Tumble and +4 ranks in Use Magic Device; those are class-dependent computations rather than racial bonuses.
You're right, I should rephrase that. By that level, any human could have obtained the six skill points in that desired configuration. For some people, that would mean they had fewer ranks than others because of their class skills, but that doesn't change that at a given HD, having HD+3 extra skill points is a human ability exclusively racial in nature - and if Alter Self grants them, they could be distributed "within the norms for the new form’s kind".

As for whether those skill points are gained by an Alter Self casting, I doubt this argument will arrive anywhere. You, among others, choose to interpret "racial skill bonuses" as a raw numerical increase to an individual skill; I, among others, choose to interpret it more broadly as a racial trait which enhances a creature's ability to use skills, numerical increases included.

Even if skill points can't be gained by Alter Self, I'm really far more interested in the possibilities mimicked feats have to offer - it's easy for spells to replicate skills, but feats are far harder.


Plus, if you're arguing that all of this is racial, you can't use Alter Self at all if you're taking the form of a 6th level Human:
Brain fart, that won't work without breaking caster level caps, yes.

[Lateral]

Hardly. Without abusing Alter Self in this way, the Fey'ri's abilities merely make it an excellent LA 0 race - I wouldn't take it for LA +1, let alone a +2 or +3. If it were as obvious as you say, we would have heard of other people discussing this method or similar ones to obtain any feat in 3.5 on demand. Care to share a link to these musings?

...People talk about the RAW technically allowing Lesser Fey'ri at zero LA all the time. Here's an example. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6992.0) And, no way in hell are they balanced for zero LA- they have Alter Self at-will, for one. People don't talk about this trick you just made up because... well, you just combined one broken thing (the Lesser Fey'ri thing, which is already known) and another (free temporary bonus feats from Alter Self (Human), which has been discussed to death), plus you added that thing about skill points which doesn't work, at the very least for the reasons Curmudgeon said, above.

[The Viscount]

Even with caster level boosts, alter self is stuck at 5HD.

I will approach this from both a RAW and a RAI perspective.

In the srd, elves have "+2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks." Humans have "4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level." Note that the words "racial" and "bonus" do not appear in the human description for skills. This indicates a difference.

From a RAI perspective, WotC doesn't like people retroactively gaining bonus skill points. It's why you don't gain them retroactively from wearing a headband of intellect. It would follow that they would prevent a similar temporary gain.

In the srd, it states that humans have "an extra feat at 1st level" whereas an elf has martial weapon proficiency for several weapons as "a bonus feat." It seems like this distinction is made for a reason, and indeed it is. As you have pointed out, on page 87 it calls it a bonus feat, because WotC is like that, but it does mention that it is one you nonetheless must qualify for, a notable distinction between the extra feat humans have, and racial bonus feats, as mentioned above. The ground is shaky here, but you might be able to pull it off with a permissive DM

[Black_Zawisza]

Could you explain why you've seen fit to take such a combative tone?


...People talk about the RAW technically allowing Lesser Fey'ri at zero LA all the time. Here's an example. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6992.0)
That handbook was where I found out about the Fey'ri in the first place. If you're going to claim that it's discussed "all the time", you're going to have to offer more than exactly one counterexample.


And, no way in hell are they balanced for zero LA- they have Alter Self at-will, for one.
Quit strawmanning. No one here has claimed anything of the sort. And they are restricted exclusively to humanoid forms, which is a pretty short and relatively weak list.


People don't talk about this trick you just made up
I don't claim that people who think that this trick doesn't work live in fantasy land. Kindly offer me a similar courtesy and debate the precise logic of my theorizing (which, unlike Curmudgeon, you have done none of so far) or your posts will be ignored. Thank you.


because... well, you just combined one broken thing (the Lesser Fey'ri thing, which is already known) and another (free temporary bonus feats from Alter Self (Human), which has been discussed to death), plus you added that thing about skill points which doesn't work, at the very least for the reasons Curmudgeon said, above.
As far as I'm aware, discussion of the Fey'ri has been confined primarily to its racial Demonic Abilities, all of which have been outside the scope of this thread. Kindly offer some counterexamples, if you can.

Shades of grey exist in reality. Are you going to claim that a run-of-the-mill Batman Wizard and Pun-Pun can both be usefully called "broken"? Similarly, while an LA +0 Fey'ri is barely noteworthy on its own and Alter Self (Human) is a trick confined to the affairs of high-level wizards with enough combos to pull as-is, to my knowledge it's never occurred to anyone to put these together to allow use of it straight from Level 1 - a powerful, unobvious combo indeed. And regardless of whether it actually works, I feel it's been an amusing mental exercise for all involved - save you, apparently. And you're wearing my patience thin.

[Togath]

did you even read the part about how the skill point gain simply would not work?

[Lateral]

Could you explain why you've seen fit to take such a combative tone?
I'm sorry about that, I was pretty annoyed at the time. See, I found this:

If it were as obvious as you say, we would have heard of other people discussing this method or similar ones to obtain any feat in 3.5 on demand. Care to share a link to these musings?
incredibly arrogant and condescending. I realize it probably wasn't intended that way, but that's how it came off to me, and I overreacted.


That handbook was where I found out about the Fey'ri in the first place. If you're going to claim that it's discussed "all the time", you're going to have to offer more than exactly one counterexample.
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220162) you (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253063) go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223394) And that was from a quick google search.



Quit strawmanning. No one here has claimed anything of the sort.
...You did. :smallconfused:

Hardly. Without abusing Alter Self in this way, the Fey'ri's abilities merely make it an excellent LA 0 race - I wouldn't take it for LA +1, let alone a +2 or +3.


And they are restricted exclusively to humanoid forms, which is a pretty short and relatively weak list.
A fair point, but it's still quite powerful, and you still get a total +2 stat modifier, flight at level 1 (which itself is worth at least a +1 LA, seeing as the only races that get flight with LA +0 don't get it until level 5 or 6, and it's restricted until twice that. You're probably right in that it's crap for LA +3, but +0? No way.


I don't claim that people who think that this trick doesn't work live in fantasy land. Kindly offer me a similar courtesy and debate the precise logic of my theorizing (which, unlike Curmudgeon, you have done none of so far) or your posts will be ignored. Thank you.
Sorry, let me be clear: that statement wasn't meant as 'you just made this thing up with no logic.' I just meant 'this trick you just thought up'.


As far as I'm aware, discussion of the Fey'ri has been confined primarily to its racial Demonic Abilities, all of which have been outside the scope of this thread. Kindly offer some counterexamples, if you can.
See the above links. (Granted, in most of those it's not so much discussed as mentioned, but still, the point is that it's not really a new trick.


Shades of grey exist in reality. Are you going to claim that a run-of-the-mill Batman Wizard and Pun-Pun can both be usefully called "broken"?
No, but this is one area where it's clearly 'broken,' as in 'not intended to work like that.' Whether it actually can work that way is debatable, and is really the point of this thread's existence, but it's certainly not how it's supposed to function.


Similarly, while an LA +0 Fey'ri is barely noteworthy on its own and Alter Self (Human) is a trick confined to the affairs of high-level wizards with enough combos to pull as-is, to my knowledge it's never occurred to anyone to put these together to allow use of it straight from Level 1 - a powerful, unobvious combo indeed. And regardless of whether it actually works, I feel it's been an amusing mental exercise for all involved - save you, apparently. And you're wearing my patience thin.
No, those two haven't been put together before. Still, I can't help but notice that this wouldn't be nearly as powerful at LA +3, so the real heavy lifter here is the Lesser Fey'ri thing anyway.

[Alleine]

So assuming the human extra feat is obtainable I must confess it does not seem nearly as powerful as the Chameleon's floating feat. You see, if you become human, you will have retroactively had that feat since level one as far as I am aware, and that means you can only acquire feats you would have qualified for at first level. At least, that's typically the general feeling I get from the way 3.5 works.

The fact that the SRD states:

1 extra feat at 1st level.

would appear to back me up. It isn't a feat at level whatever-you-are, it's a first level feat. Still nice in a lot of ways, but you can say goodbye to crafting feats.

[Sith_Happens]

Isn't Races of Faerun 3.0? If so, then any DM has a perfect license by RAW to make the "minor adjustment" of changing the Fey'ri's Alter Self ability into Alternate Form or Change Shape, as per every monster in 3.5 that used to have a Polymorph SLA.

[Talya]

As you have pointed out, on page 87 it calls it a bonus feat,


Which is enough for the RAW to mean, without any doubt, that Alter Self grants it.

RAI is another matter, but I would actually argue it is NOT out of scope of RAW that it grants the feat, even if humans weren't considered when writing the spell. A feat is a feat, and there is no reason that the single bonus feat humans have shouldn't qualify when other races have several. By RAW it's not even debatable. I would argue that in the spirit of RAI it also works. In fact, when you consider a spell of the same level -- there are even disadvantages to using Alter Self to do this. Yes, the feat is more flexible, but you don't lose any of your existing racial bonuses when you cast Heroics. You do when you cast Alter Self.

Now, i'm on your side with the skill ranks. Those don't work.

[Chronos]

Hey, can anyone tell me where it says that Wish as a spell-like ability doesn't count as a racial skill bonus? Because a Wish could totally give you a bonus to a skill. I'm going to use Alter Self to get free wishes now!

[Black_Zawisza]

Hey, can anyone tell me where it says that Wish as a spell-like ability doesn't count as a racial skill bonus? Because a Wish could totally give you a bonus to a skill. I'm going to use Alter Self to get free wishes now!
Your patronizing tone is noted. Get civil quickly, or your posts will be ignored.

That being said, Wish as an SLA decidedly does not fall within my parameters for a "racial skill bonus" because none of the listed wish options pertain directly to the game's skill mechanics. Your straw-man argument is likewise noted.


did you even read the part about how the skill point gain simply would not work?
Did you even read the part about how I addressed that?


I'm sorry about that, I was pretty annoyed at the time. See, I found this: ...incredibly arrogant and condescending. I realize it probably wasn't intended that way, but that's how it came off to me, and I overreacted.


Sorry, let me be clear: that statement wasn't meant as 'you just made this thing up with no logic.' I just meant 'this trick you just thought up'.You read false angry intent into my words, and I did the same to you. Sounds like we're even! :smallbiggrin: No hard feelings


...You did. :smallconfused:
Can you show me where I claimed that this concept is in any way balanced for most games?




A fair point, but it's still quite powerful, and you still get a total +2 stat modifier, flight at level 1 (which itself is worth at least a +1 LA, seeing as the only races that get flight with LA +0 don't get it until level 5 or 6, and it's restricted until twice that. You're probably right in that it's crap for LA +3, but +0? No way.
Never said that it was crap, just that it's not worth even one point of LA, though it remains excellent LA 0 race.





See the above links. (Granted, in most of those it's not so much discussed as mentioned, but still, the point is that it's not really a new trick.You said that not only was it a new trick, but that it was an obvious one. I imagine one would have to find hundreds of links to come close to proving something as nebulous as that.



No, but this is one area where it's clearly 'broken,' as in 'not intended to work like that.' Whether it actually can work that way is debatable, and is really the point of this thread's existence, but it's certainly not how it's supposed to function.
A miscommunication. In the circles I run in, broken means "don't use it or you're the ultimate powergaming douchebag". If worked as proposed, LA+0 Fey'ri + Alter Self (Human) would certainly be broken in combination, but not singularly as you claimed.


No, those two haven't been put together before. Still, I can't help but notice that this wouldn't be nearly as powerful at LA +3, so the real heavy lifter here is the Lesser Fey'ri thing anyway.
Fey'ri can be either +2 or +3 depending on their selection of demonic abilities. (Hint: It's nowhere near worth the LA :smalltongue: )


So assuming the human extra feat is obtainable I must confess it does not seem nearly as powerful as the Chameleon's floating feat. You see, if you become human, you will have retroactively had that feat since level one as far as I am aware, and that means you can only acquire feats you would have qualified for at first level. At least, that's typically the general feeling I get from the way 3.5 works.

The fact that the SRD states:


would appear to back me up. It isn't a feat at level whatever-you-are, it's a first level feat. Still nice in a lot of ways, but you can say goodbye to crafting feats.
Huh. I'll have to think on that, but it sounds like you're right.



Isn't Races of Faerun 3.0? If so, then any DM has a perfect license by RAW to make the "minor adjustment" of changing the Fey'ri's Alter Self ability into Alternate Form or Change Shape, as per every monster in 3.5 that used to have a Polymorph SLA.
I've never heard of that before, good find. Can you offer a source?

[Lateral]

Can you show me where I claimed that this concept is in any way balanced for most games?
To be clear, I meant 'balanced for LA 0 as opposed to balanced for LA 1 or 2.' If we're talking about actually being an LA +0 on par with other LA +0s, then we'd have to address the fact that Human, in and of itself, is overpowered for an LA +0 race, compared to almost every other LA +0 race.


Never said that it was crap, just that it's not worth even one point of LA, though it remains excellent LA 0 race.
I think you're underestimating how powerful humanoid alter self is. There are actually some fairly powerful humanoids- look in any Dragonfire Adept handbook that mentions Humanoid Shape for some ideas.

You said that not only was it a new trick, but that it was an obvious one. I imagine one would have to find hundreds of links to come close to proving something as nebulous as that.
...Did I say that it was obvious? I didn't mean to say that it was obvious, it's not. It's still something people talk about when you get into a discussion about lesser planetouched, though.


A miscommunication. In the circles I run in, broken means "don't use it or you're the ultimate powergaming douchebag". If worked as proposed, LA+0 Fey'ri + Alter Self (Human) would certainly be broken in combination, but not singularly as you claimed.
Yeah, I should have been clearer there. Again, see above with the 'Alter Self (humanoid) is more powerful than you think'.


Fey'ri can be either +2 or +3 depending on their selection of demonic abilities. (Hint: It's nowhere near worth the LA :smalltongue: )
Even so.

[Chronos]

Your patronizing tone is noted. Get civil quickly, or your posts will be ignored.
My point was that just because something can benefit skills, doesn't mean it's a "racial skill bonus". You don't need to ask "Where does it say a human's bonus skill ranks aren't a racial skill bonus?", because there's no reason to believe they are in the first place. I was just using an extreme example to illustrate the absurdity: You can't get Wish at 3rd level, not because there's some rule that says you can't, but because there's no rule that says you can.