Show me your cheese party.

[Tegu8788]

Alright, I've got a challenge for the playground, to show me the cheesiest party you can build, levels 1, 5, 10, 20, and 30 (just updates). Explain your cheese.

The challenges: Party of 5, no class independent cheese duplicated, all combat roles covered, have non-combat roles covered (trap finder, face, perception, physical, knowledge, etc.), no full class duplication, no race duplication. All materials allowed, Magic Items as bought at level new each time.

Examples of unoptimized, because its easier. Shifter Cleric (Perception, Leader), Tiefling Paladin (Face, Defender), Minotuar Barbarian (Physical, Charge Striker), Eladrin Wizard (Knowledge, Controler), Half-Orc Ranger (Traps, Ranged Striker).


Now, show me up!

[Alan_Pehnereas]

We should do a secondary - most optimized Kobold team.

[Surrealistik]

We should do a secondary - most optimized Kobold team.

Remember that Kobolds are decidedly mediocre now; Shifty is no more (and good riddance).

[tcrudisi]

It's a pity. When I read the title, my mind immediately went to a bunch of Ardent's using charge-cheese.

Oh well. I'll actually have to think about it now.

[Fecar]

Right away I started to try and think up the most damaging party possible but then I realized that it wouldn't necessarily be the cheesiest party.

The cheesiest party would need a slight homebrew to include training for every member in a custom skill, Kraft(Cheese).:smallsmile:




Sorry, couldn't help it.

[Kurald Galain]

Examples of unoptimized, because its easier. Shifter Cleric (Perception, Leader), Tiefling Paladin (Face, Defender), Minotuar Barbarian (Physical, Charge Striker), Eladrin Wizard (Knowledge, Controler), Half-Orc Ranger (Traps, Ranged Striker).

Our current party consists of Halfling Paladin (moral compass, defender and backup leader), Tiefling Warlock (social skills, ranged striker), Warforged Barbarian (physical skills, melee striker), Eladrin Wizard (mental skills, controller and backup area striker) and Dragonborn Weird-Hybrid-Thingy-That-Nobody-Knows-What-Class-It-Is (backup social/physical skills, leader). All of them pretty optimized within their chosen class.

...does that answer your question? Because I'm not going to post a full build of everything, I don't even have the exact details of four of them.

[Tegu8788]

The more info the better, as always. I know I could go to the wizard forums for hi-op stuff, but I'm asking you guys, because you explain better, and hells, you'll are just a nicer bunch.

[georgie_leech]

I don't know how powerful it is, 'cause it really depends on how stealth-friendly your game is, but I always liked Cunning Sneak Rogue (only need Concealment to hide, bunch of powers that let you hide after attacking) multiclassed with Monk to get access to the Ghostwalker PP. Of Two Worlds gives you concealment against anyone you have CA against, so everyone you're hidden from, meaning you can scout or move around the battlefield with impunity. Its powers are DEX-based, so are still good for damage, target defences most Cunning Sneak Rogue powers don't, and help get even more CA in case someone actually manages to spot you; hit them with something that grants CA, and then hide anyway.

[windgate]

Weird-Hybrid-Thingy-That-Nobody-Knows-What-Class-It-Is


I get that response a lot whenever I make anything that's non-essentials :smalleek:

[neonchameleon]

Starting off, the party should be MBA Hell. Assuming no hybrids:

Our controller is a mage. Enchanter on one side (granting MBAs for single target damage), and the ability to drive minions right off the battlefield with enlarged freezing bursts.

Our leader is a warlord. 'nuff said. Much as I favour bravura, tac probably wins. But Bravura helps hold the line. And be party face.

Our defender is a berserker, desert climate (for both a two handed weapon and Unarmoured Agility cheese).

Our striker is a possibly charge-cheesing thief. Assuming they get combat advantage, that's probably the biggest MBA going - and an equally big RBA. And they are among the best skillmonkeys.

Our fifth wheel is a Beastmaster Archer at least up through level 10 (at level 11 you might want Battlefield Archer). Twin Strike which speaks for itself. Feat combo with the thief so the archer slows people with quarry giving the thief combat advantage against them.

(Of course the actual most optimised party is either probably five beastmaster archers with the shaman multiclass or four of them and a ranged warlord or shaman to point out the focus fire, all with the shaman multiclass to flood the battlefield).

So basically the party consists of two people with really really good MBAs, two people who can both use those MBAs as their own attacks and do other stuff, and one rapid firing swiss army knife in combat. Enemies melt. Out of combat you've a mage to handle the lore, a thief to ... be a thief, a warlord or thief to be the party face, and a naturalist. Oh, we're going to need the wizard to be a ritual caster and someone to get the alchemist theme for sovereign glue and ossip wax shenanigans.

[Epinephrine]

One question would be "how cheesy?" and another might be "how much synergy?" It's easy to cheese up each individual role, but to really get cheese across the board using different (non-class) mechanisms (so, not just radiant mafia or frost cheese) might take a fair bit of work.

I was playing around with an action-granting warlord using the sidhe lord theme to steal action points from his allies (granting them a standard action when he does so) and then using his action point (granting an attack to an ally via his battle champion PP) and granting another ally a standard action on their turn. This lets him take action points from players without a great use for them, whie not costing them the action it would grant, and turn them into multiple additional attacks. I felt this was within the cheese level we allow, but If you want to abuse it, you pair a Warmaster ED with a Guildmaster Thief, and use Praetor's Legate PP for the Warmaster instead of Battle Champion to be able to grant action points when you use an action point, and to then take action points back from the Guildmaster Thief to fuel your action point granting.

I'd be tempted to try a party with as many "allies" as possible, and ways to grant attacks and bonuses to all allies, possibly also based on the number of allies. Hybrid Sentinel Fey Beast Tamers can triple the number of allies on the field, and a few summons would add even more numbers. At that point attacks (or powers) that grant an attack to every ally could start getting very strong, especially combined with leader bonuses to hit/damage/vulnerabilities.

[Rakaydos]

One of my most overused 4e characters in LFR when I played was a Pacifist Strength Cleric Intimidatimancer with Power of Love. Hit things till they get bloodied, scare them down, and heal for your intimidate's charisma in bonus health. And if they're immune to being scared (or you just botched), you can always keep handing out temp HP.

[masteraleph]

Depends on the level. I'm also having everyone buy into Radiant op, but except for the Invoker who's an actual Morninglord, it's not really required for anyone. But for higher levels, off the top of my head:

Leader: I'm thinking Cunning Bard. Everyone else takes Agile Opportunist, and the Cunning Bard then spins them all over the place with them gaining attacks in the process. At Paragon you take Resourceful Magician and grab the best abilities from all of your classes; at Epic you take Sage of Ages and pretend you're an Elite monster. Probably an Eladrin. Even CHA/INT split.

Defender: A few different options. I'm currently thinking a permastealthed shielding swordmage, though- can't really be attacked and reduces the the damage that everyone else would suffer greatly. Probably Genasi for stupid elemental tricks, including everyone's favorite lightning (and in turn Radiant w/Crown of the Brilliant Sun).

Controller: Invoker w/ Morninglord PP and all the Radiant op. Sets up things for everyone on the table for doing Radiant damage with the PP, and Power of Sun lets it do some of the same at lower levels. Power of the Sun and Solar Enemy are your choices. Probably a Wrathvoker. Really race independent as long as you have the right stat boosts, but Devas are pretty awesome.

Striker 1: Rebreather Sorcerer. Because they're cheesy as heck. Depending on level and items, can potentially do lightning, thunder, and possibly add on Radiant with Crown of the Brilliant Sun (I'm not sure if this counts as duplication or not). Dragonborn, obviously.

Striker 2: Avenger Paragon Multiclassed to Ranger to grab Dual Weapon Attack (this is legal RAW, but the character builder won't let you do it). Total critfishing, and with a Radiant Weapon can join in on the Radiantcheese as well. You're a Githzerai to grab Githzerai Blade Master so that you can do Fullblade in Heroic and a Reaper's Khopesh in the main hand and a Harmony Bastard Sword in the off hand in paragon. Dex/Wis for abilities.

All of the skills can more or less be filled, but thievery requires a feat. This isn't too much of a problem, though, since our Bard will be picking up Pact Initiate at some point anyways (after all, he wants Warlock powers). He's also likely to pick up Bard of All Trades, which makes him good at other stuff, anyways.

[fallenwarrior]

The party consists of:

Dragonborn Water Elemental Sorcerer
Deva Elemental Shaman
Sparrow Hengeyokai Watcher Shaman
Earthsoul Genasai Tactical Warlord
Elf Crossbow Hunter Ranger

Combat Tactics:
Melee characters can rack up some high damage very quickly, but IMO they have some serious limitations, especially against enemies that like to keep their distance, or creatures with auras. Also, lots of monsters are designed to fight in melee, which makes the melee types their prime target. So the biggest piece of cheese in this party is that they don't need to go toe to toe with their foes, and have effective ways of making sure their foes keep their distance as well. Which almost completely shuts down melee only enemies, btw.

The main idea is for both Shamans, and at least occasionally the Warlord, to feed basic attacks to the sorcerer. Each hit from Elemental Bolt does good damage and allows the sorcerer to shift all adjacent creatures, frustrating melee only enemies. To further frustrate them, the sorcerer should use Ice Prison on them as much as possible, which slows enemies who are hit.

The shamans should also position their spirit companions to be obstacles for anyone trying to get back into melee, with the Watcher SC being a bit further away. While enemies can target the companions, that means they won't be targeting a member of the party and the damage they can cause will be limited. Note that Spirit Companions are ideal for this because they can only be damaged by melee or ranged attacks (so close attacks and bursts won't hurt them, nor will auras).

If melee is unavoidable, the Shamans (with their spirit companions) and the Warlord try to get between any melee foes and the Sorcerer and Ranger. At level 9, your Ranger can fight in melee if necessary.

There are 3 Leaders in this party, so healing in combat shouldn't be a major issue. Generating enough saving throws might be, but Mark of Healing should solve a lot of that.

Elf Ranger Stances: Cunning Fox, Dancing Serpent

Deva Shaman At-Wills: Spirit Infusion, Stalker's Strike. Spirit Infusion is your primary power, Stalker's Strike is mainly to finish off badly wounded foes.

Hengeyokai Shaman At-Wills: Claws of the Eagle, Voice of Battle. Claws of the Eagle is your main attack, but Voice of Battle might allow someone to get out of an enemy's reach.

Dragonborn Sorcerer At-Wills: Elemental Bolt, Ice Prison. Use Ice Prison on your turn, and Elemental Bolt as your free RBA, or when you can only hit one enemy per turn. Just make sure the Sorcerer has a way to change the attack type, for those monsters who resist cold.

Genasai Warlord At-Wills: Direct the Strike, Paint the Bull's Eye. Paint the Bull's Eye is likely to be the most used attack, but Direct the Strike might get some use, especially for the Ranger. Once per encounter, Earthshock can prone enemies who insist on closing in.

The basic tactics behind this party will be most effective at 1st level, but should hold at pretty much any level of play. Many of these classes just improve their existing powers as they level, so it's not that big an issue for them anyway. The use of Frostcheese in Paragon is strongly recommended, but only the Sorcerer will really need Lasting Frost.

Skills:
The Ranger is your skillmonkey, having Acrobatics, Dungeoneering, Nature, Perception and Stealth. Take Monastic Disciple to get the Thievery skill and you've got a well-rounded scout.

The Sorcerer is a natural choice for Diplomacy, Intimidate and Endurance. Arcana is a class requirement and it can be a useful skill, but this character won't have the Intelligence to use it effectively.

The Deva Shaman should take Arcana, Nature, Perception and Religion, while the Hengeyokai should go with Heal, Insight, Nature and Perception. Note that both Shamans can use Speak with Spirits to boost a skill roll, the Deva can add Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes to reach some pretty high skill checks. At 2nd level, the Deva can also take Arcane Mutterings to give some support with Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate checks.

Warlords don't have a great skill set, but Athletics and History might come in useful occasionally.

Between them, this party has every skill covered except Streetwise. Three characters have trained Perception and has the ability scores to make good use of it. The party also has an outside the box scouting option in the Hengeyokai, who can fly as well as talk to animals.

[tcrudisi]

The party consists of:

Dragonborn Water Elemental Sorcerer
Deva Elemental Shaman
Sparrow Hengeyokai Watcher Shaman
Earthsoul Genasai Tactical Warlord
Elf Crossbow Hunter Ranger

I like the party, but its against the rules as laid out by the OP. There's no controller or defender and all combat roles must be covered.

[Kurald Galain]

I like the party, but its against the rules as laid out by the OP. There's no controller or defender and all combat roles must be covered.

For that matter, a fairly standard cheese party is simply five archer rangers (at higher levels, with frost/radiant cheese to up the damage; and multiclassing to shaman to get some emergency heals). Twin striking from maximum bow range (60 squares, I think) makes it rather easy to take down most of the enemies in the game. It's extremely boring to play it that way, though.

[fallenwarrior]

I like the party, but its against the rules as laid out by the OP. There's no controller or defender and all combat roles must be covered.

The Hunter variant of the Ranger is technically classified as a controller (and they're at least better at control than a Seeker, IMO), but you're right that there's no defender. With the possible exception of the Swordmage (which I don't have any real experience with), all defenders seem to need to be in melee to do their thing, and that's exactly what this party tries to avoid for the reasons I outlined. The Spirit Companions can help fill that role, but admittedly they aren't quite the same.

While I did mention frostcheese in my post, only the Sorcerer really needs to use it. By giving the sorcerer free attacks, the three leaders can benefit from the frostcheese without needing to have it themselves, and the ranger can use something else.

[Tegu8788]

It doesn't cover all the roles, but it would be a functional team, assuming that monsters aren't picked to specifically get around that combo, which doesn't seem that hard to me. A very effective team though.

[Felhammer]

If I were to build a cheesy/solid party, it would probably include as much out-of-turn movement and attacks as possible. It would have a mix of Ranged and Melee. It would have a good mix of AoE and Single Enemy attacks.

Without delving too deeply, I would be inclined to say:

Fighter
Warlord
Bard
Ranger
Wizard

The Fighter

[Cursemonger]

Remember that Kobolds are decidedly mediocre now; Shifty is no more (and good riddance).

I loved the shifty kobold! My DM, not so much. I played a Kobold Battlemind with the mark of passage. Shifty Shifty nearly got me booted. :)

[Leolo]

For epic levels: A lvl 30 group focussing on nova attacks (get out your dailies!) with a magister that keeps casting fantastic recuperation as a standard action. Full rest for the group, get all your action points and daily ressources back! ;)

Do this in combination with a timestop to not even have to use the standard action and additional minor actions and have as much standard actions as you like.

To make it less expensive use fool's gold to buy ritual components (prize reduced to 1%) and other ritual cost reducing powers.

Oh....and run. Your DM will be right behind you, throwing dice after you just a moment after you declared what you are trying to do.

[Gavran]

That's a really sketchy interpretation of RAW.

1) You're relying on "gain the benefits of an extended rest" as a solution to "twice per day." Many "daily" effects explicitly reference extended rests, the Magister's feature doesn't.

2) "You cannot use this ritual if you could not normally begin an extended rest."

[Leolo]

1) I don't think it has to - in general you regain things you can do once per day after an extended rest. There is even an rules paragraph stating this, so magister would need to have to an exception for this (and there is no need to - the ability itself is ok)

2) yes, this is right - and the prerequisite to do so is clearly defined. Neither fantastic recuperation, nor magister change it. As long as you do not had a real rest there is no problem with having gained the benefits of such a rest (without actually resting)

But to be honest: I would not do this. No sane player would do this. No sane DM would allow this, it is the same way broken as the "i do infinite damage" builds. You can not play them, because they would end the game.

It is cheese. It should not work, and even if there is a valid RAW interpretation for this you will not really see it in an actual game. So the main reason to post this in this thread is because it matches the cheese description pretty good. Something more or less broken, with dubious rule interpretation that was never intended to be used this way.

I smell cheese!

[Gavran]

Firstly, let me apologize, I was rather tired when I wrote that and lost both tone and meaning. I meant to say that I don't think that would work RAW. My first point was supposed to be a question, because while it's certainly implied that 1 day = 1 extended rest, it certainly isn't a hard rule ("10 minute adventuring days", etc.) and I'm not aware of a mechanical link between the two other than... common sense. Oddly enough, this would actually be something that ought to work via RAI*, but I thought might not by RAW - but again, I had meant to make that an open question, a possible flaw. My knowledge of rules text is in no way comprehensive.

*Except of course that WotC surely never intended that ritual to be combined with the Magister ED.

Similarly, with my second point I made the assumption that the rules for extended rest explicitly forbade combat - but then I haven't yet fully learned to stop assuming WotC did the obvious thing. Rather than continue making assumptions, I actually looked this time. I did find: "Once per day, a creature can gain the benefits of an extended rest." I'll have to find the paragraph you referenced to look for conflicts, but there certainly doesn't seem to be anything preventing one from beginning an extended rest in the middle of a fight. Silly WotC.

[Leolo]

There is a definition that daily ressources are restored by an extended rest, and that you can't make as much extended rests per day as you want as you have to make a pause (if i remember right 8 hours) between extended rests.

The intention behind fantastic recuperation seems to be that it is an (expensive) second rest if desperatly needed, for example if you do not have the time for another one. Therefore it does not count as a rest itself - but you can't make it just 10 minutes after your last real rest.

The whole combination would probably not be that huge deal if you'd have to pay the full price for the ritual. Unfortunally at higher levels there are many options to avoid this. The tricky thing with this is that there are options to reduce ritual costs. The standard action ritual by the Magister wouldn't be that broken - there are other options that restore dailies, too.

It is just broken because of using fools gold as a very high level character at an exchange rate of 1 to 100 (or even higher). Gold that vanishes after a while and normally can't be used to cast rituals. And use it to buy ritual components that you can use. There are other similar worse things that can be done by this trick. For example normally fool's gold can't be used to create items. But who cares? Buy them and use a little mind affecting lvl 2 utility to let the salesman forget whom he selled them.

In fact i has done this as a DM in one of my adventures and let the players search for the mysterious thief that never leaves any tracks - as if the gold would simple vanish! ^^

The options itself are all fine and not broken, and can even make a funny adventure. Just don't combine them. As a player using such options intensly can make your DM very angry and break the game.

[Dimers]

Here's one build I'd like to put into a cheese party -- Ultimate Wind or Fifth Wind.

Dwarf, fighter|warden/druid, earthforger theme, paragon path probably either Son of Mercy or paragon hybridization (for Font of Life), epic destiny Reincarnate Champion.

Assuming no assistance from the party:
In late Heroic tier, the build uses second wind once per combat as a minor action for +3 to all defenses and a mark penalty of -6.
In late Paragon tier, it applies second wind twice per combat as an immediate action for +9 to all defenses and a mark penalty of -7.
In late Epic tier, it applies second wind four times per combat as a free action for +11 to all defenses and a mark penalty of -8, regaining a minor-action attack (dragonborn breath weapon) and a no-action damage (tiefling wrath) every time. Has 16 surges per day, which is plenty for handling the typical adventuring day.
By late Epic I might also be able to make that breath attack bypass allies and mark all targets -- depends on which feats are most important for the party.
In paragon and epic, each second wind also allows a save at +5, heals more hp than second wind usually does, and allows a shift of 4, 5 or 6 squares. Also, the later in the adventuring day it is, the more effective each surge becomes at healing and preventing damage.
Defenses are defender-level even without the boost, and attacks are not amazingly accurate but not terrible.
Applies a mark as a minor action or with any fighter class attack.

Armor of enduring health, Vital Form feat and Epic Recovery feat give me more uses of second wind per combat.
Resilience of Stone makes second wind faster in paragon tier. Retrain to Stoneheart Warrior in epic for the same purpose.
A favorable interpretation of the defensive weapon enchantment is required for that massive boost to personal defense. If I use second wind as a minor/immediate/free, is it the "second wind action"? Because there's at least one feat that specifies "when you use your second wind as a standard action", I would argue that any use of second wind counts as a second wind action.
Other relevant feats include Hybrid Talent for wildblood warden, Wildblood Cunning, Wildblood Fury, Draconic Restoration, Renewed Wrath, Bolstering Breath, Primal Breath.
Other relevant equipment includes pierced-heart, ironheart and strongheart tattoos. Heh. Makes me sound like a Care Bear. EDIT: oh, and an absorbing shield, to help protect allies against even area effects that include the character.

[Ravian]

For epic levels: A lvl 30 group focussing on nova attacks (get out your dailies!) with a magister that keeps casting fantastic recuperation as a standard action. Full rest for the group, get all your action points and daily ressources back! ;)

Do this in combination with a timestop to not even have to use the standard action and additional minor actions and have as much standard actions as you like.

To make it less expensive use fool's gold to buy ritual components (prize reduced to 1%) and other ritual cost reducing powers.

Oh....and run. Your DM will be right behind you, throwing dice after you just a moment after you declared what you are trying to do.

Speaking of which I sometimes had the idea of combining a Magister and a Rogue with Knock-out to take out most any monster in one round. If the Magister is ready with the Imprison ritual right after the Rogue knocks the monster unconscious for one round then technically it would be helpless and a valid target for the Imprisonment. All they have to do is ensure that Knock out will work and get themselves in proper initiative order so that the magister's turn directly follows the rogue's.

[Raimun]

Leader: Bardlord (Bard/Warlord hybrid).

Strikers: X number of 100% optimal Avengers (Pursuit and/or Unity), where X is as many as you can get. All of them get as many attacks as possible.

Controller: Wizard.

Avengers are tough and versatile and are used to kill people to death. Bardlord gives them even more attacks and moves them around to better positions. Wizard stops enemies from moving and moves them around.

I guess the Bardlord and the Wizard and perhaps even some of the Avengers should multiclass to Clerics so the team has more healing.

Edit: No duplication...? A diverse team that has all the bases covered? Even using defenders? Explain to me how is that cheesy? :smalltongue:

But in that case I'd have only one Avenger and take a Slayer from hell and some Fighter-dude who is more like a Striker.