Circumventing the "epic attack bonus" and "number of attacks" nonsense issue?

[willardthor]

Hi,

A 20 Wizard / 20 Fighter has 2 attacks (since his base attack bonus is +10), and a 20 Fighter / 20 Wizard has 4 attacks (since his base attack bonus is +20). This is because "epic attack bonus" stacks with "base attack bonus" in all other ways than granting extra attacks.

When planning the progression of a warrior-character, it can be super annoying to make sure it gets base attack bonus +16 before hitting epic, particularly when this is a gish character.

I know there are ways to get around this limit on the number of attacks a character can make per round. For instance, the "Avalanche of Blades" maneuver from "Tome of Battle" (and to some extent, the "Improved Manyshot" feat).

Do you know of other means of circumventing the "number of attacks is determined by your base attack bonus, which stops progressing at level 20" limit?

The rule of thumb is that a level 20 character with a base attack bonus of <= 15 using this method should be able to get the same number of attacks as a level 20 character with a base attack bonus of >= 16. This, for instance, rules out "Rapid Shot", since the <=15-character with "Rapid Shot" would still have at least one fewer attacks than the >=16-character with "Rapid Shot".

[JaronK]

DMM: Persistent Divine Power?

But honestly, it's epic, so is base melee attacks really important?

JaronK

[DeltaEmil]

Just apply the houserule that your BAB (and with it the number of iterative attacks) goes up to 20 while multiclassing into epic level (or when taking epic levels of a class with medium or bad BAB), and once it has reached 20, you then apply epic attack bonus.
It's not like a level 40 wizard would be that much more overpowered with having a BAB of 20, thanks to spellcasting.

[Chronos]

You could also say that the rate of attack bonus increase in epic is still 1/2, but that it just stops accumulating extra attacks after the 4th one.

Or, heck, you could just say that the number of attacks keeps going up, too. Would that really be remotely broken compared to anything spellcasters get in epic levels?

[Glimbur]

Or, heck, you could just say that the number of attacks keeps going up, too. Would that really be remotely broken compared to anything spellcasters get in epic levels?

It would be more bookkeeping. More attacks, especially at a significant penalty to hit, mostly just slow the game down.

As to why 4 is the magic number, I couldn't tell you. There are a number of ways to get past 4 (TWF, Flurry of Blows, etc) so it's not a hard rule, but a line has to be drawn somewhere I suppose.

[KillianHawkeye]

As to why 4 is the magic number, I couldn't tell you. There are a number of ways to get past 4 (TWF, Flurry of Blows, etc) so it's not a hard rule, but a line has to be drawn somewhere I suppose.

I think it's limited to 4 attacks because if there was a 5th iterative it would be at a -20 penalty. If you can hit the enemy with a -20 penalty on your attack roll, that kinda makes the dice irrelevant for your first attacks. On the other hand, if the enemy's AC is on par with your first or second attack, your 5th and further attacks will be completely irrelevant.

[fluke1993]

@Killian: That actually makes a lot of sense...

[mabriss lethe]

Acquiring natural attacks also circumvents the limit.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

DMM: Persistent Divine Power?

How many attacks does a level 26/31/&c. Cleric get when they DMM: Persist their Divine Power, I wonder? Do they get additional iteratives, since their BAB (and not Epic Attack Bonus) is greater than 20?

[Divide by Zero]

How many attacks does a level 26/31/&c. Cleric get when they DMM: Persist their Divine Power, I wonder? Do they get additional iteratives, since their BAB (and not Epic Attack Bonus) is greater than 20?


But regardless of how high a creature’s base attack bonus gets, it can never make more than four attacks with that weapon using a full attack action.
That section is talking about monsters with 21+ HD (the epic rules work differently with RHD for some reason), but it should apply to other methods of increasing BAB as well. And it's not like clerics needed another advantage in melee anyway :smallyuk:

[Kalaska'Agathas]

That section is talking about monsters with 21+ HD (the epic rules work differently with RHD for some reason), but it should apply to other methods of increasing BAB as well. And it's not like clerics needed another advantage in melee anyway :smallyuk:

Good catch. I remembered something about RHD being different for EAB, but not exactly how.

[Sith_Happens]

I think it'd be a perfectly reasonable houserule to say "when calculating BAB, use whichever 20 of your levels gives you the most."

[Chronos]

It would be more bookkeeping. More attacks, especially at a significant penalty to hit, mostly just slow the game down.
Everything that an epic-level character does slows the game down. Rolling five attack rolls is nothing compared to, say, resolving a Disjunction.

And the 20-point difference between a first iterative attack and a hypothetical fifth one shouldn't be a problem, either. It should at least occasionally happen that an epic-level martial character has enough attack bonus to moot the die roll on his first few attacks.

[137beth]

I think it'd be a perfectly reasonable houserule to say "when calculating BAB, use whichever 20 of your levels gives you the most."
That's what I do.

Everything that an epic-level character does slows the game down. Rolling five attack rolls is nothing compared to, say, resolving a Disjunction.

And the 20-point difference between a first iterative attack and a hypothetical fifth one shouldn't be a problem, either. It should at least occasionally happen that an epic-level martial character has enough attack bonus to moot the die roll on his first few attacks.
Disjunction? Pfft, have you seen how long it can take to resolve interactions between opposing epic spells:smalltongue:
Also, having 5+ attacks at once doesn't take as long as deciding which of your 9230597 available powers you want to use on any given round.

[Talderas]

Everything that an epic-level character does slows the game down. Rolling five attack rolls is nothing compared to, say, resolving a Disjunction.

And the 20-point difference between a first iterative attack and a hypothetical fifth one shouldn't be a problem, either. It should at least occasionally happen that an epic-level martial character has enough attack bonus to moot the die roll on his first few attacks.

Remember. Disjunction is available at Lv17 while the 5th attack would be available at Lv21.