Removing [evil] Tag from spells?

[Vaz]

Is this possible without being Hellbred?

[geekintheground]

i dont think hellbred do that, Evil Exception just gives them the ability to cast the spells. normally a good cleric couldnt cast one but a good hellbred can. it still has the tag and [probably still counts as an evil act so doing it enough will cause your alignment to change]


[stuff]= if my understanding of the mechanics is correct :smalleek:

[Shazek]

Not that I know of.... So add the good tag. Look up Mark of the Enlightened Soul. There's an argument to be made that a [Good] [Evil] spell would have no net effect on alignment. Of course, that's on somewhat shaky ground, and wouldn't help in all situations, but it still can be fun to play with.

[killem2]

You can be an arcane caster and cast all those [Chaos] and [Evil] spells to your [Lawful] and [Good] heart's content.

[Venger]

You can be an arcane caster and cast all those [Chaos] and [Evil] spells to your [Lawful] and [Good] heart's content.

or play in eberron where we ignore that nonsense :smallwink:

[The Viscount]

I was going to say consecrate spell or purify spell but they both oddly only add the good descriptor. This might be sort of good enough, as mentioned above.

[Jeff the Green]

Not that I know of.... So add the good tag. Look up Mark of the Enlightened Soul. There's an argument to be made that a [Good] [Evil] spell would have no net effect on alignment. Of course, that's on somewhat shaky ground, and wouldn't help in all situations, but it still can be fun to play with.

It might have no net effect on alignment, but it would still be an Evil act. And a Good act.

Throw both Consecrate and Corrupt Spell (from BoED and BoVD, respectively) on chaos hammer, which you use to execute a lawfully condemned criminal and you have a simultaneously Good, Evil, Lawful, and Chaotic act!

[Crake]

Spells with the [Evil] tag are typically evil in the nature of what they do. Something like mindrape, while you could consecrate it, is still evil in the nature of how it works.

[VariSami]

Spells with the [Evil] tag are typically evil in the nature of what they do. Something like mindrape, while you could consecrate it, is still evil in the nature of how it works.
Considering that Book of Exalted Deeds essentially gives you rules for mundane ways of managing to do the same thing to evil individuals...

[Lord Haart]

Spells with the [Evil] tag are typically evil in the nature of what they do. Something like mindrape, while you could consecrate it, is still evil in the nature of how it works.

Or Deathwatch. While countless people argue that (like most tools of evil) it can be used for a good purpose, if you drop the devil advocate's stance, it is clear that a good person barely has any reason to learn such a spell at all and a bad one will gladly use it to bring just that additional bit of pain, suffering and corruption.

[Roog]

Is this possible without being Hellbred?

Use wish or miracle (etc) to duplicate the spell?

[TuggyNE]

Or Deathwatch. While countless people argue that (like most tools of evil) it can be used for a good purpose, if you drop the devil advocate's stance, it is clear that a good person barely has any reason to learn such a spell at all and a bad one will gladly use it to bring just that additional bit of pain, suffering and corruption.

You… are talking about deathwatch, the triage spell that's on the Good-only Healer's list, right? I really can't tell if you're serious, because your argument makes the reverse of sense.

And no, I'm not arguing devil's advocate here.

[eggynack]

You… are talking about deathwatch, the triage spell that's on the Good-only Healer's list, right? I really can't tell if you're serious, because your argument makes the reverse of sense.

And no, I'm not arguing devil's advocate here.
Yeah, I can't even begin to understand why someone would argue that deathwatch deserves to hang out on the [evil] list. It's a spell that has far better good applications than "evil" ones, and even the evil ones would just be a sort of tactical reverse-triage: telling you where it's best to put the hurt. Knowing the right targets for a beating doesn't seem evil to me. It's actually gotten to the point where I'm considering not bringing up deathwatch in arguments about the validity of the [evil] subtype, just because I tend to assume that everyone always thinks that deathwatch isn't evil, and that they'd consider it more logical to just correct the obvious error than to remove the whole subtype.

Meanwhile, the two "[evil]" spells I've been bringing up the most frequently recently are claws of the savage, and claws of the bebilith, both from BoVD. The former just gives you claws, with absolutely no justification, not even in a flavor sense, for why it should be considered evil. They're just claws that are kinda long. The latter also just gives you claws, and the only justification I can see for those being evil is that the name has vague implications that you're getting these claws from a demon, but the spell is transmutation, so that explanation makes very little sense. Meanwhile, that vague shift from, "Obviously not evil at all," to, "Maybe slightly evil. Like, if you squint, maybe you can vaguely see where the designers were coming from. You can't, because it's ridiculous, but it might be slightly more evil than claws of the savage," is enough to justify the spell being frigging corrupt. Sometimes, this game makes me wanna cry.

Edit: Also, I vaguely alluded to this in my post, but do ya know the best way to remove the [evil] tag from spells? Just ask the DM to remove it from the game entirely. The good tag too, if you're feeling frisky, though that subtype's less contentious. The subtype is basically universally stupid, and the cases where it may be justified are nowhere near worth it. This may not be an option in every game, especially because the good and evil subtypes are slight balancing factors on divine casters (not really, cause neutral, but I guess you can't cast luminous armor on yourself then), but it's an option that's always worth thinking about. [Evil] hurts the game far more than it helps.

[Chronos]

Malconvokers don't remove the [evil] tag, but they can basically ignore it for conjuration spells: They're allowed to cast them even if they're good clerics, and use of such spells doesn't affect their alignment. This is especially significant in that using a summoning or calling spell for an evil creature gives the spell the [evil] tag.

[Alex12]

There are a very small number of spells I, as a DM, would consider actually evil. Basically, if it's vile damage, deals extra damage to good creatures, or explicitly draws upon evil power, then it's evil. Otherwise, not so much. Deathwatch isn't evil at all.
If you're playing a game where undead aren't automatically evil, then the [evil] spells relating to undead aren't.
Tainted Scholar spells are always [evil] because that's a class feature.

[killem2]

It is very important to distinguish two things.

Arcane users by RAW, have NOTHING to fear from the DM forcing alignment changes from meerly using [evil] spells if you are good and vice versa.

However, this doesn't mean that you are immune to persecution, from local DIVINE organizations that disagree with your out look. :smallbiggrin: Queue the witch hunts.

[eggynack]

There are a very small number of spells I, as a DM, would consider actually evil. Basically, if it's vile damage, deals extra damage to good creatures, or explicitly draws upon evil power, then it's evil. Otherwise, not so much. Deathwatch isn't evil at all.
If you're playing a game where undead aren't automatically evil, then the [evil] spells relating to undead aren't.
Tainted Scholar spells are always [evil] because that's a class feature.
I guess that dealing extra damage to good creatures might make something evil, if only because it actively incentivizes you to do evil stuff. The other two, vile damage and drawing upon evil power, don't make nearly as much sense to me. There's just no actual external mechanical link there, which I think is crucial. If you wouldn't call a spell evil when you remove all of the flavor text, I don't see the point of having the spell be evil at all. Otherwise, you're just killing the dragon and saving the village with "evil fireball" instead of regular fireball.

I've never really understood the whole undead as evil thing, even with folks trying to convince me otherwise. I mean, if having undead around actively removes good from the universe, that's probably gotta be evil, but in any other circumstance it feels like just another value neutral tool. I'm not saying these things aren't mechanically evil in game, because they are. I'm just saying that they probably shouldn't be, and if there's a version of the [evil] mechanic that isn't ridiculous, it's not this one.

[Deophaun]

I've never really understood the whole undead as evil thing, even with folks trying to convince me otherwise. I mean, if having undead around actively removes good from the universe, that's probably gotta be evil, but in any other circumstance it feels like just another value neutral tool. I'm not saying these things aren't mechanically evil in game, because they are. I'm just saying that they probably shouldn't be, and if there's a version of the [evil] mechanic that isn't ridiculous, it's not this one.
If undead skeletons and zombies were aggressive by default and released from service on their master's death, then the evil of those spells would be a no-brainer, as you would be creating a murder machine that is only kept in check by your will.

But, as that is not the case...

[eggynack]

If undead skeletons and zombies were aggressive by default and released from service on their master's death, then the evil of those spells would be a no-brainer, as you would be creating a murder machine that is only kept in check by your will.

But, as that is not the case...
Eh, maybe. I feel like you could have some contingencies in place if things go wrong. There're a ton of tools you can use that can go wrong if misused, and undead that act of their own volition are just another of them. Maybe they're a bit more like that than some others, but not by a crazy margin. Also, are you sure that zombies don't act on their own initiative if the master dies? It looks like skeletons explicitly don't, so that fact that zombies only don't do so implicitly might not be enough.

[hamishspence]

Arcane users by RAW, have NOTHING to fear from the DM forcing alignment changes from meerly using [evil] spells if you are good and vice versa.

BoVD does suggest that "the path of evil magic leads swiftly to corruption" - opening the door for DMs to force an alignment change, given enough time.

And the Malconvoker- a PRC open to arcane casters (Complete Scoundrel) has as a special rule- Casting [Evil] summoning spells does not threaten to change your alignment: Implication- normally, it does.

[Chronos]

Quoth Alex12:

There are a very small number of spells I, as a DM, would consider actually evil. Basically, if it's vile damage, deals extra damage to good creatures, or explicitly draws upon evil power, then it's evil.
Naw, drawing upon evil power, that's not evil. For a really evil spell, you want something that's powered by pure love (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2004/11/27/8-bit-chronicles-3-of-3/).

[Deophaun]

There're a ton of tools you can use that can go wrong if misused, and undead that act of their own volition are just another of them.
That's why I specified aggressive. It would be a lot like unleashing a deadly chemical weapon: you have control right up until the wind changes and now it's going who knows where. The fact that a zombie is a permanent creation means that the likelihood of it going berserk would approach 100%.

Also, are you sure that zombies don't act on their own initiative if the master dies? It looks like skeletons explicitly don't, so that fact that zombies only don't do so implicitly might not be enough.
Zombies are mindless and they aren't given a default nature (unlike an ooze, whose default mode is "move and eat"). So if the master dies and they don't continue on with his orders, they should just stand around and stink up the place.

Man, wouldn't that be a fun thing to include in a dungeon for a bunch of level 1s to run into: a 20HD zombie hydra whose master died and is now a glorified doorstop.

[Harrow]

BoVD does suggest that "the path of evil magic leads swiftly to corruption" - opening the door for DMs to force an alignment change, given enough time.

And the Malconvoker- a PRC open to arcane casters (Complete Scoundrel) has as a special rule- Casting [Evil] summoning spells does not threaten to change your alignment: Implication- normally, it does.

Right, but that just changes a word on your character sheet. Most of the time arcane casters couldn't care less about their alignment, which I think was the point ; that they don't have to fear their alignment changing because their alignment changing doesn't matter.

[hamishspence]

Still makes them more vulnerable to certain spells.

The impression I got, at least, was that what was being argued was, that a DM can't make your character change alignment just because they're casting [Evil] spells.

[137beth]

Zombies are mindless and they aren't given a default nature (unlike an ooze, whose default mode is "move and eat"). So if the master dies and they don't continue on with his orders, they should just stand around and stink up the place.

Man, wouldn't that be a fun thing to include in a dungeon for a bunch of level 1s to run into: a 20HD zombie hydra whose master died and is now a glorified doorstop.

And then hear them complain that you are cheating them out of treasure/xp for defeating a clearly higher CR monster:smallsmile:

Anyways, a greataxe or greatsword is not [Evil], so the standard for making a spell [Evil] should be very, very high. A spell that tortures someone, for instance, should be [Evil]. A spell that just instantly kills someone is no more evil than a sword.

[eggynack]

That's why I specified aggressive. It would be a lot like unleashing a deadly chemical weapon: you have control right up until the wind changes and now it's going who knows where. The fact that a zombie is a permanent creation means that the likelihood of it going berserk would approach 100%.
Sure, but I've gotta figure that there can be some contingencies you can make against things going wrong. Maybe you have your party set to eradicate zombies who are let loose, or maybe you have some sort of literal contingencies that can take out zombies when you die. It'd set the whole affair kinda evil by default, but you can probably get it to good. It's why I don't like the idea of assigning morality to tools at all. Even if you're talking about a spell that only hurts good people, I don't know if it should be evil to cast that until you actually start offing nuns. If every application of a spell is evil, just set every evil outcome as evil, and let that handle it. Killing good people is evil, at least most of the time, so you'll still register as evil in the end. The mechanic is rather pointless in that way, though it has vague ramifications regarding what certain folks can cast.



Zombies are mindless and they aren't given a default nature (unlike an ooze, whose default mode is "move and eat"). So if the master dies and they don't continue on with his orders, they should just stand around and stink up the place.
Yeah, I suppose that sounds right. Still, even mindless things can just shamble around and eat things. It just seems odd that skeletons would explicitly mention that they don't act on their own initiative, and that zombies wouldn't.

[Venger]

Right, but that just changes a word on your character sheet. Most of the time arcane casters couldn't care less about their alignment, which I think was the point ; that they don't have to fear their alignment changing because their alignment changing doesn't matter.

This is erroneous. Malconvoker is enterable for divine casters, such as clerics, who care about their alignment. This is why the example it gives is a good aligned cleric casting evil conj spells instead of a wizard (who wouldn't care)

[killem2]

BoVD does suggest that "the path of evil magic leads swiftly to corruption" - opening the door for DMs to force an alignment change, given enough time.

And the Malconvoker- a PRC open to arcane casters (Complete Scoundrel) has as a special rule- Casting [Evil] summoning spells does not threaten to change your alignment: Implication- normally, it does.

Demon Web Pits has the raw on it, arcane casters never risk changing alignment over use of spells descriptors from meerly casting them.

Evil use of evil or good spells for that matter is entirely different.


Yes, they can. Wizards themselves said that clearly in Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, on page 98. I quote the relevant part.


(Remember that wizards of any alignment can cast spells with the evil descriptor without ill effects.)

The spell in question is dread word, which, iirc, allows you to use the very Dark Speech. It doesn't get any more evil than that. And yet, as said by WotC themselves, a lawful good wizard can cast it without repercussion. Sure, the spell effect itself will probably effect him, but not the fact that he is casting an [Evil] spell.

[geekintheground]

Demon Web Pits has the raw on it, arcane casters never risk changing alignment over use of spells descriptors from meerly casting them.

Evil use of evil or good spells for that matter is entirely different.

i think that just means they dont LOSE anything for casting the spells, not that their alignment wont change.

[Chronos]

On the other hand, Fiendish Codex II says that if you cast [evil] spells just nine times in your life, and don't take extreme measures to make up for it, you're guaranteed to go to the Lower Planes when you die.

[Venger]

On the other hand, Fiendish Codex II says that if you cast [evil] spells just nine times in your life, and don't take extreme measures to make up for it, you're guaranteed to go to the Lower Planes when you die.

just cast at least nine mindrapes sanctify the wickeds or other [good] spells in your life and you're good.

a points system for morality: oh wotc

[Chronos]

Doesn't work that way. Corruption points are explicitly not cancelled out by good acts. To get rid of them, you have to (among other things) give up whatever benefit you got from the evil act, and that's going to be tough if the benefit you got was winning an encounter.

[Zanos]

Evil spell tags are pretty arbitray anway. Slowly burning people to death with fire spells is fine, as is melting them with acid, electrocuting them, freezing them to death, an blasting their ears out. Apparently messing with their blood vessels is an inherently evil act, as is creating a skeleton to stab them.

[137beth]

Evil spell tags are pretty arbitray anway. Slowly burning people to death with fire spells is fine, as is melting them with acid, electrocuting them, freezing them to death, an blasting their ears out. Apparently messing with their blood vessels is an inherently evil act, as is creating a skeleton to stab them.

And don't forget that poison is Evil, but the spell Poison is not [Evil]:smalltongue:

[Vaz]

Not really asking for Handwaivium ignoring the rules, or else I'd have just gone and done it. I know the rulss are screwy, I can't do anything about that, but they are there in the game. While it is not a Solid RAW game, the fact I am playing an Exalted Character who was specifically looking to get an Evil Spell (Consumptive Field) useable (I am banned from casting Aligned spells of different Alignment in this game).

If there is a Good spell that has a similar effect to boost the CL I'd be highly appreciative.

[Deophaun]

If there is a Good spell that has a similar effect to boost the CL I'd be highly appreciative.
You could try to research a non-evil version. Expect it to be one or two levels higher, and you'd probably need some reasoning to back it up.

[Alex12]

I guess that dealing extra damage to good creatures might make something evil, if only because it actively incentivizes you to do evil stuff. The other two, vile damage and drawing upon evil power, don't make nearly as much sense to me. There's just no actual external mechanical link there, which I think is crucial. If you wouldn't call a spell evil when you remove all of the flavor text, I don't see the point of having the spell be evil at all. Otherwise, you're just killing the dragon and saving the village with "evil fireball" instead of regular fireball.
Vile damage I can understand, but that's mainly because of how hard it is to heal. It's like how Contagion is [evil] (which I can understand). The immediate consequences aren't evil, but the long-term consequences are

I've never really understood the whole undead as evil thing, even with folks trying to convince me otherwise. I mean, if having undead around actively removes good from the universe, that's probably gotta be evil, but in any other circumstance it feels like just another value neutral tool. I'm not saying these things aren't mechanically evil in game, because they are. I'm just saying that they probably shouldn't be, and if there's a version of the [evil] mechanic that isn't ridiculous, it's not this one.
This one is largely setting-dependent. If undead are always evil in the campaign setting, then the spells are evil. If not, they're not.

Not really asking for Handwaivium ignoring the rules, or else I'd have just gone and done it. I know the rulss are screwy, I can't do anything about that, but they are there in the game. While it is not a Solid RAW game, the fact I am playing an Exalted Character who was specifically looking to get an Evil Spell (Consumptive Field) useable (I am banned from casting Aligned spells of different Alignment in this game).

If there is a Good spell that has a similar effect to boost the CL I'd be highly appreciative.
Ah, gotcha. Exalted. That can be tricky.
Which is more important, the killing-stuff part or the CL-increasing part?

[eggynack]

Vile damage I can understand, but that's mainly because of how hard it is to heal. It's like how Contagion is [evil] (which I can understand). The immediate consequences aren't evil, but the long-term consequences are.

This one is largely setting-dependent. If undead are always evil in the campaign setting, then the spells are evil. If not, they're not.

I still have to figure that I'm in agreement with past-me on all counts. If causing someone pain that's difficult to heal is evil, just write that down somewhere. If creating creatures such that they'll kill some folk when you die is evil, just say that. There's no point to having all of these intrinsically evil tools. All it does is make the game's alignment system internally inconsistent. If you cast a spell that only deals damage to good guys, but you do it in a way that is good, that should be a good act. It's not too easy to figure out a way too accomplish that, but that's the whole point. If you just mark the actually evil components of these things evil, then you'll end up with approximately the same effect, except without all of this craziness.

[ShurikVch]

Evil spell tags are pretty arbitray anway.
And absence of them too. :smallbiggrin:
For example:
Addiction. Subject becomes addicted to a drug.
Bestow Greater Curse.
Entice Gift. Creature gives caster what it’s holding.
Liquid Pain. Extracts one dose of liquid pain from tortured victim.
Nether Trail. Creates a trail compelling evil outsiders to follow.
Soul’s Treasure Lost. Disintegrates subject’s most valuable object.

None of those spells have [evil] tag !!! :smallfurious::smallfrown::smallcool: :smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

Or Deathwatch. While countless people argue that (like most tools of evil) it can be used for a good purpose, if you drop the devil advocate's stance, it is clear that a good person barely has any reason to learn such a spell at all and a bad one will gladly use it to bring just that additional bit of pain, suffering and corruption.

*psst* You forgot your blue text.

[Rubik]

Not really asking for Handwaivium ignoring the rules, or else I'd have just gone and done it. I know the rulss are screwy, I can't do anything about that, but they are there in the game. While it is not a Solid RAW game, the fact I am playing an Exalted Character who was specifically looking to get an Evil Spell (Consumptive Field) useable (I am banned from casting Aligned spells of different Alignment in this game).

If there is a Good spell that has a similar effect to boost the CL I'd be highly appreciative.Take a magic item that casts the spell and use the rules in the BoED to sanctify it. Basically spend the XP it took to craft the item in the first place in a ritual-thing and suddenly it's [Good]. Do this to a scroll and learn the spell.

Voila.


And absence of them too. :smallbiggrin:
For example:
Addiction. Subject becomes addicted to a drug.
Bestow Greater Curse.
Entice Gift. Creature gives caster what it’s holding.
Liquid Pain. Extracts one dose of liquid pain from tortured victim.
Nether Trail. Creates a trail compelling evil outsiders to follow.
Soul’s Treasure Lost. Disintegrates subject’s most valuable object.

None of those spells have [evil] tag !!! :smallfurious::smallfrown::smallcool: :smallbiggrin:And I could think of [Good] uses for all of those spells.

Everything's in the intent.