Monster Grappler Optimization Questions

[Dusqune]

Hello! First post.

Grappling rules are notoriously convoluted, and after trying to build a strong grappling monster (with PC levels) I have to agree.

I am unclear on a few of the rules central to the idea of my build. However, I have rolled high enough on my internet Search checks to glean the following information:

1) Grappling 'attack' actions are granted only based on the number of attacks you can produce purely from your BAB. I.e., flurry of blows, natural attacks, and other methods of generating extra attacks do not grant extra grapple actions.

2) This one is more fuzzy: I have come to understand that a full-attack can have quite the variable attack order; e.g., in TWF, you can have the M1, M2, O1, O2 ordering, or you can have M1, O1, O2, M2, or any other combination as long as the iterative attacks order is respected. Now the issue is how does this interact with natural weapons? Can you place secondary natural attacks anywhere in that attack order?

If any of the above is flawed, please let me know!


So, the crux of the build focuses around exploiting the Savage Grapple of the Black Blood Cultist, meaning an optimal number of 'grapple checks' is the order of the day. Let's say, for the sake of example, we have a character that has some monk levels, has achieved BBC 8, has Scaled Horror 1 for Improved Grab, has Pounce, has Rapidstrike, has Improved Rapidstrike, has Power Attack, has Shock Trooper, has dipped a few into Warblade to get Battle Leader's Charge and Punishing stance, and (in rage) has 1 Bite, 2 Claws, and 2 Slams (say, from tentacles) for natural attacks.

So we Battle Leader's Charge-Pounce with a Power Attack and Flurry of Blows while unarmed TWF while full Rapidstriking--for the sake of argument we're assuming all attacks we make hit and all grapple checks succeed--and we want to maximize the number of grapple checks for those crunchy natural attacks.

Issues:
Entering Grapple Optimally) We have the TWF to deal with--you can't TWF in a grapple, but is that due purely in the case of 'attacking' as your grapple attack action?

Assuming you can still TWF beforehand, we obviously want to get all our offhand strikes out of the way first--plus flurry of blows since it won't give us another grapple check--PLUS all of our natural weapons and rapidstrikes assuming the conclusion of my first question does not let natural weapons provide grapple attacks AND assuming the conclusion of my second question allows natural attacks anywhere in the full attack.

So we have...
Bite/Claw/Claw/Claw-/Claw--/Claw---/Claw----/Slam/Slam/Slam-/Slam--/Slam---/Slam----/Off/Off/Off-/Off--/Flurry/Main(initiates grapple with Improved Grab)/Main-(Grapple check to deal damage(procs Savage Grapple))/Main--(Grapple dmg(Savage))/Main---(???(See below))

Hopefully that's readable. I didn't make a full character sheet, so I don't have numbers to put up with each attack, but a - after an attack shows that it is an iterative.

Continuing Grappling Optimally) Now the question is what are we going to do next? This will determine what we plan on doing with our last iterative for our grapple.

If we maintain the grapple (i.e., just grapple for more damage) then they are stuck in the grapple during their turn (probably) and will hopefully struggle for more Savage Grapple damage. Next turn we get four more Savage procs and rinse and repeat. At the end of turn two, that's 6 more Savages than what was listed above.

If we disengage the grapple (spend a grapple check to break the grapple, proccing Savage) then we get nothing during their turn, but we can then resort to Battle Jump related tomfoolery to re-Charge with some multipliers, but we only get 4 more savages--two less than holding the grapple.

That ultimate decision relies on more solid numbers than I have crunched atm, but part of it lies around a few good questions:

i) What constitutes a 'melee damage roll'? Does the unarmed damage from the grapple action count? How about Savage procs? Each individual attack within that? So do all of these get 1d6 more damage from Punishing Stance? How about Power Attack?

ii) Do charge-related bonuses apply to all attacks within a pounce? E.g., Battle Leader Charge gives 10 extra points of damage, but it seems to assume you only get the one attack from charging. Same with charge multipliers. If they do, do they then ALSO apply to damage from within the grapple checks from iterative attacks granted from a pounce? How about the derived Savage procs?


...I don't think I missed any of my questions. There is probably some flawed assumption I am unwittingly making that makes this whole build unfeasible, in which case I just wasted a lot of time. I appreciate any help you guys have to offer!

[Urpriest]

Hello! First post.

Grappling rules are notoriously convoluted, and after trying to build a strong grappling monster (with PC levels) I have to agree.

I am unclear on a few of the rules central to the idea of my build. However, I have rolled high enough on my internet Search checks to glean the following information:

1) Grappling 'attack' actions are granted only based on the number of attacks you can produce purely from your BAB. I.e., flurry of blows, natural attacks, and other methods of generating extra attacks do not grant extra grapple actions.

2) This one is more fuzzy: I have come to understand that a full-attack can have quite the variable attack order; e.g., in TWF, you can have the M1, M2, O1, O2 ordering, or you can have M1, O1, O2, M2, or any other combination as long as the iterative attacks order is respected. Now the issue is how does this interact with natural weapons? Can you place secondary natural attacks anywhere in that attack order?

Nope! The order of a full attack is actually fixed in order of bonus, according to RAW anyway. Note that this is silly because the bonuses can change between attacks due to readied actions or similar, but the RAW was never known to be reasonable. Regardless, in a grapple you don't get any of your secondary natural weapons, you just get your iterative attacks.

Your other questions have more ambiguity to them, but I think that this already throws something of a wrench into your works.

[Dusqune]

Nope! The order of a full attack is actually fixed in order of bonus, according to RAW anyway. Note that this is silly because the bonuses can change between attacks due to readied actions or similar, but the RAW was never known to be reasonable. Regardless, in a grapple you don't get any of your secondary natural weapons, you just get your iterative attacks.

Your other questions have more ambiguity to them, but I think that this already throws something of a wrench into your works.

Not terribly, tbh. It would not reduce the number of grapple checks possible per round, it simply reduces the number of attacks I can make before a grapple--I would simply have to find the latest point at which I can have my first main-hand attack and start the grapple there. This does reduce the chances of un-grappling and re-charging being an optimal strategy, however, and it also reduces the point of getting rapidstrikes.

However, to contend your point, I read "If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough" to set the context for "you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest." More so, given that the next sentence is "If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first," I would interpret that as freedom to mix and match attack orders, but the iteratives are applied in accordance to their order with respect to their same attacks.

(Odd example of how I picture it, but if it were a videogame, you would have, say, three buttons: Mainhand, Offhand, and Claw. You get, say, 4,3,2 respectively. You can hit the buttons in any order, but the second time you hit Mainhand you get -5, third time -10, and so on appropriately.)

In any case, I have seen ruled you can mix order like that before here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pzf3?can-you-rearange-the-order-of-attacks)--not that it makes it RAW or anything.