3.5 - Where can I find old guns?

[gurgleflep]

Other than the guns in the DM's Guide, where can I find guns? I'm needing muskets, rifles, blunderbusses, flintlocks, a rocket launcher (http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/240/1/6/bazooka_orc_by_isra_ac-d47i3gp.jpg), and various other weapons from way back when.
The only sources we're (me and my group) unable to use are the various magazines and that's because our local hobby shop doesn't have any of them.

And to answer a question I'm pretty sure will be asked: yes, the picture I linked to is part of the reason I'm asking for this :smallamused:

[SolioFebalas]

Some of them are in Steam And Sorcery.

[Agent 451]

d20 Past might be of some help, as might Iron Kingdoms.

[gurgleflep]

Some of them are in Steam And Sorcery.

I've not heard of that so I'll begin my searches now, thank you :smallsmile:


d20 Past might be of some help, as might Iron Kingdoms.

d20 Past? Wasn't aware there was one but I'll take a look for it as well. Iron Kingdoms on the other hand I know quite well :smallamused: Thank you.

[Alefiend]

Pathfinder has an entire class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger) built around guns, so naturally has plenty of information (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/firearms) regarding them.

[gurgleflep]

Pathfinder has an entire class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger) built around guns, so naturally has plenty of information (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/firearms) regarding them.

That's pretty awesome :smallcool: I don't look into Pathfinder often, so this is neat. Thank you.

[Big Fau]

Pathfinder has an entire class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger) built around guns, so naturally has plenty of information (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/firearms) regarding them.

Save for the fact that the class is underpowered and guns hilariously more-so, yes, Pathfinder does have rules for guns. Last time I played a system where a specific type of weapon had a huge mishap like PF's gun rules I was playing White Wolf with a bad DM.

[ksbsnowowl]

d20 Past? Wasn't aware there was one but I'll take a look for it as well. Iron Kingdoms on the other hand I know quite well :smallamused: Thank you.

d20 Past is a d20 Modern supplement.

http://www.amazon.com/Past-d20-Modern-James-Wyatt/dp/0786936568

The stats are okay, though it is quite obvious that the writers know NOTHING about real life guns. But, it is a [sort of] decent starting point.

[gurgleflep]

d20 Past is a d20 Modern supplement.

http://www.amazon.com/Past-d20-Modern-James-Wyatt/dp/0786936568

The stats are okay, though it is quite obvious that the writers know NOTHING about real life guns. But, it is a [sort of] decent starting point.

Thank you for linking to that, I'll be buying it soon.
Are there any adjustments I should do to fix things up?

[Forrestfire]

Dragon Magazine #321 had some neat rules for guns and associated items.

[gurgleflep]

Dragon Magazine #321 had some neat rules for guns and associated items.

I can't get my hands on the magazines though :smallfrown: The shop doesn't order them, my only chances of seeing it is asking one of the people who frequents the store if they have it.

Edit: Thank you for telling me a magazine, I'll give it a shot and hope for the best.

[unseenmage]

I can't get my hands on the magazines though :smallfrown: The shop doesn't order them, my only chances of seeing it is asking one of the people who frequents the store if they have it.

Edit: Thank you for telling me a magazine, I'll give it a shot and hope for the best.

The Dragon Magazine Article mentioned has exactly what you asked for and more. Used it for my Techsmith recently and it worked like a dream.

[ksbsnowowl]

Thank you for linking to that, I'll be buying it soon.
Are there any adjustments I should do to fix things up?

I'll go look through my copy and see what stands out at me.

What era of firearms are you looking to include? Pirate blunderbusses, or M1 Garands (ie- WWII), or more modern than that, even?

[gurgleflep]

I'll go look through my copy and see what stands out at me.

What era of firearms are you looking to include? Pirate blunderbusses, or M1 Garands (ie- WWII), or more modern than that, even?

I'm looking for stuff closer to pirates, three musketeers, and that general period/era - only odd one I'm wanting is a "rocket launcher" (shoulder canon?) similar to the picture I linked to in the opening comment of the thread.

[Ashtagon]

d20 Past is a d20 Modern supplement.

http://www.amazon.com/Past-d20-Modern-James-Wyatt/dp/0786936568

The stats are okay, though it is quite obvious that the writers know NOTHING about real life guns. But, it is a [sort of] decent starting point.

That "knows nothing about real guns" bit comes up a lot. It always puzzles me.

* The rate of fire/reload times are vastly accelerated in d20p, mostly for playability.
* The differences between the different "technology levels" of guns in d20p have been simplified. Since the book assumes no prior gun history knowledge, that is necessary for playability.
* The auto-fire rules are dumb, but that's more an artifact of d20m core rules rather than d20p.
* The structure of d20m/d20p feats mean that damage must be in the form of 2d(n).
* The damage amounts also assume that the d20m massive damage rules are being used. This means that any hit that causes more damage than your Constitution score can potentially drop a character. Guns don't need to scale their damage with hp in that context.

[Agent 451]

There is also the Maug Stone Spitter, from Fiend Folio. It's a Maug graft, but might be of some use to you. It's basically a shoulder mounted cannon.

[SowZ]

Other than the guns in the DM's Guide, where can I find guns? I'm needing muskets, rifles, blunderbusses, flintlocks, a rocket launcher (http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/240/1/6/bazooka_orc_by_isra_ac-d47i3gp.jpg), and various other weapons from way back when.
The only sources we're (me and my group) unable to use are the various magazines and that's because our local hobby shop doesn't have any of them.

And to answer a question I'm pretty sure will be asked: yes, the picture I linked to is part of the reason I'm asking for this :smallamused:

An rpg is literally a 'rocket propelled grenade.' That orc is firing iron balls that presumably don't blow up on impact and are propelled by the gunpowder behind it as opposed to a rocket. So if you look up rocket launcher stats you are probably not going to find what you want.

That orc actually has a shoulder mounted cannon. Look for cannon rules and then tweak it to make it more mobile.

[ksbsnowowl]

Okay. The earlier firearms seemed alright, stat-wise. The Flintlock Firearms on page 21 are what will likely fill your needs best, though I'm not sure how much different they will be from the options in the DMG.

For the shoulder cannon, your best bet is going to be just using one of the large-bore muskets that deals 2d10 damage. If you actually want rockets... see the M72A3 LAW: http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/modern/smack/weapons.html
(under "Heavy Weapons")

The big things that stand out at me as incorrect are all post 1890.

d20 Modern lists the following bullet/caliber types:
* 7.62mm dealing 2d10 (representing the real world 7.62x51mm NATO round, aka, .308, which is used by M14's and many modern hunting and/or sniper rifles)
* 7.62mmR dealing 2d8 (representing the 7.62x39 round fired by AK-47's and SKS's. It is a less powerful round than 7.62x51, because the case is much shorter, and thus it has a smaller powder charge propelling the bullet)

d20 Past lists the following firearm/ammo combinations:
* M1 Garand (.30) dealing 2d10 (M1 Garands fired a 30-06 round, which is larger [case and powder charge], but ballistically nearly identical to the later .308 [or 7.62x51mm] cartridge)
* Mosin Nagant (7.62mmR) dealing 2d8 (Mosin Nagants do NOT fire the 7.62x39 cartridge that is designated by d20 Modern's "7.62mmR" designation. They fire the real world 7.62x54mmR, which is similar to, but actually larger than, the 7.62x51mm cartridge.)

To get a visual of what all I am talking about, here is a side-by-side picture:

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk48/ksbsnowowl/Picture1_zps17e7859b.png (http://s277.photobucket.com/user/ksbsnowowl/media/Picture1_zps17e7859b.png.html)
5.56, 7x62x39, .308, 7.62x54r, 30-06

The middle one and the one on the right are ballistically similar,* yet the game designers want to tell me those two deal 2d10 damage, but the one in between them deals 2d8 damage, like the two cartridges on the left.

@ Ashtagon: As you can see, I wasn't nit-picking rate of fire stuff, or arguing that guns' damage values should double. Just the game designers' lazy firearms research.

* "The newer 7.62×51mm NATO/.308 Winchester cartridge offers similar performance to standard military .30-06 loadings in a smaller cartridge. However, the greater cartridge capacity of the .30-06 allows much more powerful loadings if the shooter desires."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30-06_Springfield

[Ashtagon]

There could be a number of factors, even so.

* It might have a shorter barrel relative to other firearms using the same general bullet class.
* The ammunition might not contain as much explosive charge as the physical size might suggest, or the older technology meant that the charge couldn't be made as energy-dense as more modern ammunition (and machining tolerances mean that more compact energy-storage technologies can't be used in the ammunition without making it dangerous to use in older guns that would be nominally compatible).
* Mosin-Nagants are a very old design (1891), compared to M1 Garand (1936) and M14 (1959). It might be that the barrels aren't as efficient, bleeding gas or not so precisely-engineered.

That said, I have seen houserules that standardise damage across ammunition types, to get rid of the anomalies you highlight.

[Alefiend]

Clearly, those are the bullets God uses to kill catgirls.

[ksbsnowowl]

There could be a number of factors, even so.

* It might have a shorter barrel relative to other firearms using the same general bullet class.
It's not that one. Granted, there were several models, but the barrel lengths ranged from 20.2 inches to 29 inches. The M1 Garand's barrel was only 24 inches, and the M14's was 22 inches.


* The ammunition might not contain as much explosive charge as the physical size might suggest, or the older technology meant that the charge couldn't be made as energy-dense as more modern ammunition (and machining tolerances mean that more compact energy-storage technologies can't be used in the ammunition without making it dangerous to use in older guns that would be nominally compatible).

Muzzle Velocities:
Mosin Nagant: 2,838 ft/s
M1 Garand: 2,800 ft/s
M14: 2,800 ft/s

[Trinoya]

You could just write up the stats yourself. I incorporated firearms a long time ago into my game and I found writing up statistics worked out much better than digging them up from the various books/splat books.

Oh the looks on my players faces when those D6s hit the table... :smallamused: though I went for a more 'realistic' interpretation and less for balance. Are you looking for your guns to fit in more along the side of 'it's for flare' or are you looking for, "holy god on high they have guns :smalleek:" sorta reaction?

[gurgleflep]

*snip* If you actually want rockets... see the M72A3 LAW: http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/modern/smack/weapons.html
(under "Heavy Weapons")
*snip*

Not actual rockets, just a time period equivalent canon thing that's held in a similar manner.


There is also the Maug Stone Spitter, from Fiend Folio. It's a Maug graft, but might be of some use to you. It's basically a shoulder mounted cannon.

I'll take a look at that now, it sounds quite interesting. Thank you :smallsmile:


You could just write up the stats yourself. I incorporated firearms a long time ago into my game and I found writing up statistics worked out much better than digging them up from the various books/splat books.

Oh the looks on my players faces when those D6s hit the table... :smallamused: though I went for a more 'realistic' interpretation and less for balance. Are you looking for your guns to fit in more along the side of 'it's for flare' or are you looking for, "holy god on high they have guns :smalleek:" sorta reaction?

How would you suggest stating them out if I go about it this way? I'm not good with stats unless it's on characters.

Something in between those two reactions, something of an "Oh wow, you've got a gun?!" reaction.