Tarquin's Reaction

[Newwby]

The majority of people (myself initially included) in the discussion thread have taken Tarquins arrival as a very bad thing. I'm in two minds about hwo the now looming reuniting of Tarquin and the Order is going to play out.

On one hand the party contains his other, arguably favourite, son Elan, Elan's beloved girlfriend plus a 'gladiator' he was auditioning (forgetting for a moment he knows the order is a group) as a personal operative.

On the other the order is responsible for the destruction of the gate that he obviously had some form of plan for, although Tarquin might agree with Roy about the lack of options if he believes Xykon/Redcloak were ever actually there (no one in the guild saw them did they?).

My leading question is - do you think Tarquin will attempt to perpetuate the ruse the Order tried back in Bleedingham or will he acknowledge he was the masked fighter from the linear guild?

[KillianHawkeye]

will he acknowledge he was the masked fighter from the linear guild?

Durkon already told everyone it was Tarquin with the Linear Guild.

As for the rest of it, he's returned in force with an army behind him. I think the time for deception is past.

[scurv]

As for the rest of it, he's returned in force with an army behind him. I think the time for deception is past.

Oh, For some reason I do not think he has straight forward warfare planed for that army. Uses of military force tends to be quite deceptive in the right hands.

I would not even begin to make guesses until i knew what intel was had at his disposal, Although the fact that he told his boy to walk with him might indicate that he wishes to get the latest intel he possibly can, I know this is a twisted matter and i know they have their playnice policy....So I very much wonder how this will play out.

Although if i had to pick two books to define Tarquin it would be the Sun Tzu's Art of War and The Prince by Niccolò Machiavelli

[Synesthesy]

The most important thing is: how can the order win this time?

If there would be a fight, I'm almost sure that the Order can't defeat an entire army. Back in the battle for Azure City a paladin said it to Hayley, speaking of the goblin. And we don't know how level Tarquin is (may he is epic? But, at least, he has several level on Roy)

So, I don't think they'll fight. I think that Tarquin has something in mind. Maybe he will try to take Roy to his side. Tarquin is a Xykon rival, after all. Both of them want to rule the world. Tarquin is smart, he know that it's better to ally to the order then to fight them.

And we know that Xykon, Redcloak and the Monster in the Darkness are about to arrive at the last gate. Vaarsuvius can't cast teleport. So, if the Order must travel on foot to the next gate, Xykon would have all the time to conquer the gate.

Maybe the final battle will have Tarquin and the Order on the same side?

[Paseo H]

The most important thing is: how can the order win this time?


Are you kidding? And "almost sure" they can't beat Tarquin?

I mean this in all good humor, but someone put two scoops of optimism in his cereal this morning! :smallbiggrin:

Come on man...if the Order were utterly [DATA EXPUNGED] against Xykon and Redcloak, they're probably even more utterly [DATA EXPUNGED] against Tarquin and his Dino Rider army.

And Nale.

And Ioun Stone Lady.

And, Twelve willing, the rest of Team Tarquin.

[Roland Itiative]

Well, Tarquin's purpose for that army seems pretty straightforward: seize the Gate for himself. The mystery here is what the army will actually be used for, since seizing the Gate is not an option anymore, and such a dramatic reveal wouldn't end with a "well then, back to Bleedingham we go".

Maybe the entire Tarquin subplot will come to a close (since Elan now has Durkon back, he may be able to execute his plan), maybe this will cement Tarquin as another side contending for the last Gate, and show he actually has a plan for it other than "it's a powerful artifact, and it's in my lands, so I might as well take it".

Now, what I really don't think will happen is Tarquin using that army to try to kill the Order, unless they force his hand... and they are in no position to force his hand.

[BlackDragonKing]

I honestly don't see Tarquin as a one-arc wonder; this is a way more compelling villain than your standard one-and-done baddie like Kubota, and he's definitely got the resources and know-how to be a much bigger, better side in this struggle than whatever slipshod collection of evil adventurers Nale's able to gather if he somehow slithers out of this one again. He's got every reason not to take down the Order here and even offer them some aid in stopping Xykon out of enlightened self-interest; like the Fiends, evil is not one big happy family to Tarquin. The heroes, Elan particularly, play into his long-term vision of his legacy, even if Elan's got a plan to try and avert that, but he also pointed out already he wants them to crush Xykon. A world-dominating evil overlord or someone mad enough to destroy the world is a big, messy impediment to Tarquin's neat and subtle regional domination; he can't very well build peaceful, terrified empires if an omnipotent lich starts flying around screwing everything up. I think the Order will escape, but that Tarquin's ultimate fate is going to be be later down the line.

I am a little less certain on what Nale's fate right now is going to be. From what I can tell, Tarquin has absolutely nothing to gain and an annoying amount to lose from letting him live; he authorized this whole exercise through the Linear Guild rather than taking his bigass army there in the first place because he wanted to test his sons against each other, and if he ever needed proof Nale inherited all of his viciousness and very little of his competence, the debacle the Guild suffered left to Nale's leadership should be proof of that. Nale accomplished less than nothing as far as Tarquin is concerned here; the prize is lost because Nale was too stupid to pick up on the trick like the Order did, Nale falling into an ambush got his second in command banished (and would have resulted in Nale getting disemboweled by the Belkster if Tarquin hadn't stepped in) and his misguided attempt at recruitment got his wizard killed. On top of that, Tarquin left the guy with two powerful vampire clerics and now returns with one dead and the other on the enemy side. Nale not only failed to in any way assist his old man in the acquisition of the gate, but not slitting Nale's throat the moment the Order was gone and doing the whole damn thing with his own people got Malak killed. I imagine Tarquin's going to be livid (in his usual, low-key way) when he understands just how BADLY Nale screwed this up when Tarquin gave him one last chance to prove his leadership skills, and...well, Tarquin's clearly well-acquianted with the evil overlord list. Well enough he should know indulging an incompetent but ambitious evil son is a luxury men like him can't afford while they're playing the big games. A disappointed Evil parent, Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic, is one of the most dangerous things a son out of favor can encounter.

[rgd20]

Surely Tarquin's reaction will be to conquer/pillage the world on the other side of the gate? It has water after all...

Bob

[colanderman]

On the other the order is responsible for the destruction of the gate that he obviously had some form of plan for

Could he not have a plan for the rift itself?

(Surely he anticipated that one of the interested parties may have wished to destroy the gate, and would have focused more resources into precluding that possibility if he needed the gate intact?)

[exenia]

Tarquin doesn't ask Nale how the pyramid job is going. Or what he's doing alone and running away. No questions. That's very telling. Remember, Tarquin loves gathering as much intel as possible before acting, and loves taking very decisive action once it's time to move.

The ruse is officially over, it's time to take charge and roll some heads. Superiority monologue first, of course.

[Reddish Mage]

Tarquin doesn't ask Nale how the pyramid job is going. Or what he's doing alone and running away. No questions. That's very telling. Remember, Tarquin loves gathering as much intel as possible before acting, and loves taking very decisive action once it's time to move.

The ruse is officially over, it's time to take charge and roll some heads. Superiority monologue first, of course.

I agree, I don't think Tarquin long conversation is going to be derailed by the sudden realization there is no more pyramid or Malack or linear guild for that matter. Tarquin has some other sort of plan and it is a good one, and perhaps knows something he hasn't told us.

[AutomatedTeller]

I dunno what Tarquin's reaction to Malack dying is - I could easily see him being very proud of Nale for taking advantage of an enemies weaknesses and overconfidence.

He clearly won't be happy about the gate, of course.

[BlackDragonKing]

I dunno what Tarquin's reaction to Malack dying is - I could easily see him being very proud of Nale for taking advantage of an enemies weaknesses and overconfidence.

He clearly won't be happy about the gate, of course.

At the same time, Nale "taking advantage" resulted in him freeing a previously unfriendly character from thrall, and ignoring that nearly got him killed and resulted in the drow's messy death. Tarquin thinks it's important to do this stuff right, finding a way to exploit an enemy's weakness while not leaving yourself wide open for another enemy to clobber you seconds later. And literally the ONLY thing Nale managed in this whole debacle was killing one of Tarquin's friends...who, when you get right down to it, was a whole lot more useful to Tarquin alive than Nale is right now.

[Amphiox]

The question arises as to what Tarquin intends to do with that army of his, now that the Gate is destroyed.

If it is for fighting the Order, it is wasteful and unneeded, as Tarquin plus his Ioun Stone ally can probably solo the Order as it is.

If it is for fighting Xykon and Redcloak, it is suboptimal and inefficient, as Xykon had probably decimate many of his level one warrior grunts without sustaining any significant damage, so Tarquin would stand to lose a lot of men and materiel without advancing the goal (of defeating Team Evil) in any measurable fashion, and we already know that Tarquin is the type of tyrant who cares about the lives of his soldiers, if for nothing else that it is costly and inconvenient to replace too many of them too often. Fighting Xykon would have been something that bringing a small elite team of high level adventurers, like his team of near-epic/low-epic partners would have been more effective for, without the big army, whose only contribution to such a fight would be wasting some of Ioun Stone Lady's 9th level spell slots.

The obvious thing for this force would be to secure/protect the Gate, but of course the Gate is toast.

So it boils down to whether or not Tarquin already knows what has happened to the Gate. Since it looks a lot like it took two Gate castings to move that army, it seems that it would have been logical for Tarquin to have scried ahead at least before the second Gate (basic military doctrine - scout before committing your forces), which would suggest that he knows.

If he knows, then the things that such a military force would be most suitable for is either invading the world behind the rift, or stopping an attack by another army on the other side of the rift. But if Tarquin was really intending to invade through the rift, and he had scried the rift beforehand, we would expect that his army would be bringing some watercraft along with them, which we have not yet seen.

If he did not know, then he may well have intended these forces for securing a gate that now no longer exists. In which case we are seeing him make a hilarious error, massively overcommitting expensive resources for nothing.

Which could be a narrative way for the Giant to show that Tarquin, despite his savvy and preparedness, is not omniscient, can be surprised, and is capable of miscalculating and making mistakes.

Of course it is also possible that Tarquin did initially intend for his army to be used to secure the Gate, did not know the Gate is now destroyed, but immediately upon finding out changes his plans on the fly to invading the riftworld or something related to a now open rift. In which case the Giant will be able to demonstrate that Tarquin is fallible and still show off his quick thinking, adaptability and overall savviness.

[Newwby]

Durkon already told everyone it was Tarquin with the Linear Guild.

As for the rest of it, he's returned in force with an army behind him. I think the time for deception is past.

That's why I used 'acknowledge' rather than 'reveal'. :smalltongue:

Tarquin being the master of plotting that he is I envisioned a scenario where he might actually attempt to bluff through it all.

Since the linear guild is so fragmented (again) now perhaps he'll lend his resources or even army (since he has a vested interest in helping them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html)) to the Order so that they can chase down Xykon quicker. Some of those pterodactyl mount's wouldn't go amiss.

[Fish]

What will the army actually be used for?

An audience.

Whatever Elan has planned to discredit, defeat, and diminish his father, it probably needs people to pass along the tale.

[exenia]

I just kinda expected since he already had the army ready to go, he'd march them through even if it's only for a show of force. Doesn't mean they're going to attack OOTS, Tarquin could have brought them in to show Nale, "Well, I -was- going to give you command of this army, but you blew it."

[The Pilgrim]

Well, Tarquin will be glad to know the Gate is gone. It's not like he had any use for it, and now his dominion is rid from a MacGuffin magnet for heroes and mega-archvillians.

In addition, it looks like the OOTS has open for him a gate to a whole new world to conquer.

For Nale, I suppose he will congratule his son for showing some cunning and offing Malack. What I don't know is how will he explain it to the rest of his partners - who may or may not have liked Malack, but who will not be happy to know that Tarquin's son is killing party members with his father's approval.

[BlackDragonKing]

Well, Tarquin will be glad to know the Gate is gone. It's not like he had any use for it, and now his dominion is rid from a MacGuffin magnet for heroes and mega-archvillians.

In addition, it looks like the OOTS has open for him a gate to a whole new world to conquer.

For Nale, I suppose he will congratule his son for showing some cunning and offing Malack. What I don't know is how will he explain it to the rest of his partners - who may or may not have liked Malack, but who will not be happy to know that Tarquin's son is killing party members with his father's approval.

I'm not really sure where the notion that Tarquin's going to think Nale outwitting Malak and killing him is praiseworthy is coming from. It just doesn't work for me from any perspective I perceive Tarquin in.

On a personal level: Tarquin's not proud of Nale being his son; part of the reason he likes Elan so much is he's nothing like his brother. From the view that Tarquin's bonds are genuine, he'd probably find it more irritating than charming that one of his most trusted friends and one of the possible custodians of his precious legacy got killed by his useless egomaniac son (couldn't even manage to direct that one moment of cleverness at anyone whose death WOULDN'T set Tarquin back an asset), who didn't even manage to accomplish anything useful for Tarquin in the process. It's hard to be proud of your boy when he killed one of your most trustworthy allies and then came running into you in utter defeat seconds later. Tarquin's toleration of the Linear Guild struck me as him giving his son one last chance to impress him before he handed him over to Malak; Nale's bungled all that, I can't see him getting brownie points for a moment of cleverness that still didn't help anyone but Nale and then promptly backfired spectacularly.

On a professional level: Even if we're going on the "Tarquin's bonds aren't genuine, just utility-based", Nale is a massive liability to him and managed to outlive his usefulness by getting Malak before Malak got him; not only is Tarquin now still left holding his millstone of a son, he's down one of his empire's most powerful clerics as a result and Nale managed to lose any positive assets that he'd normally bring to the table by keeping him around. Now he's just a disaster waiting to happen, and certainly not someone worth defending to his party.

Tarquin might sing a different tune if Nale had been able to follow through, defeating his enemies AND preemptively taking down Malak, but as always he gets the upper hand for just one action and then blows it, which would just look sloppy to a guy like Tarquin.

Tarquin strikes me as the kind of player who plays a game like Diplomacy really well; striking with crushing force, manipulating others, and basically setting himself up to act in a way that nearly any reaction by his enemies helps him out somehow. When he turns on someone that thought they were safe from him, he crushes them and then extracts a new benefit from it. Nale, by contrast, is the kind of player that would think because you can get ahead by betraying anybody that chronic backstabbing is the way to win the game, even when that leaves him isolated and nearly defenseless because he turned on too many allies and grasped prematurely at power.

As I said earlier, Tarquin has nothing to gain and everything to lose from sparing Nale's life. I really can't see any reason for him to change his mind about his son being an idiot after Nale screwed the pooch worse than usual right in front of him.

[DeadMG]

I wouldn't put it that way.

Tarquin already knew he was going to lose either Nale or Malack. If he was going to be upset about this, he could have stuck around and ensured they didn't kill each other. But instead, he left them alone. The death of one of the two is an entirely expected result for Tarquin, and there's no reason why he wouldn't be happy that it's his son who is still alive. I doubt very much that he will be disappointed or angry at Nale for offing Malack. His party, on the other hand, might be kinda miffed.

And as for the Gate, Nale succeeded in his mission, realistically. We already know that Tarquin's primary objective was to beat Xykon rather than the Order. With the Gate destroyed, Tarquin won't have to face Xykon himself, and won't have to deal with Xykon casting the ritual and becoming more powerful than the Gods themselves, at least for a while. The destruction of the Gate buys Tarquin time to rally his adventuring party, and more importantly, it means that Tarquin doesn't have to expend all his resources holding Girard's Gate, and even if he succeeded in holding it against Redcloak and Xykon, then TE could simply go to Kraagor's Tomb. The destruction of the Gate is the best possible outcome for Tarquin.

You're thinking of this too much in terms of Tarquin's pre-existing plans. The simple fact is, Team Evil is the biggest threat to Tarquin by a very long way. He's not gonna get jack **** of his subtle manoeuvring done if Xykon shows up. Learning about the Gates and Xykon is going to change his priorities a lot. He's no longer the biggest dog in town by a mile.

[luc258]

Team Evil is already near the other gate.
Tarquin and friends have the means to move to the new gate almost instantly, as shown by the big gate bringing the whole army.
OOTS knows the whereabouts of the last gate (they do, don't they?).

I assume there will be some kind of deal between them to prevent the gate from falling into Xykons hand. The army could be very well the death and destruction Durkula is supposed to bring to his homeland.

I don't think they will go through the remains of the gate to the ocean. They can't let Xykon have fun with the last gate. Funnily this also makes the MITD tell something close to the truth when it convinced Team Evil to go for the last gate: time is essential, even though Team Evil arrived first.

[Snails]

Tarquin doesn't ask Nale how the pyramid job is going. Or what he's doing alone and running away. No questions. That's very telling. Remember, Tarquin loves gathering as much intel as possible before acting, and loves taking very decisive action once it's time to move.

The ruse is officially over, it's time to take charge and roll some heads. Superiority monologue first, of course.

I agree.

He certainly pumped enough information from Nale to know that three Gates have exploded; therefore, he knew that this one could be destroyed as well.

Nale: alive or dead
Malack: undead or dead
Gate: in hands of LG or not
Gate: in enemy hands or not
Gate: destroyed or not
Team Evil: arrived or not
Elan: alive or dead

Surely Tarquin had adequate plans for every possible permutation.

[David Argall]

Tarquin knew he was going to lose Malack or Nale [likely want Nale to survive. Dangerous and useless or not, kin is kin.] 2 blood-thirsty serial killer who lusted to kill each. Expecting both to survive required more optimism than Tarquin has. So he is not steamed about that. Now losing the gate is a more deplorable matter. He slipped off to tell the rest of his party to rush over, with troops, because important stuff was happening. Now he arrives, and the troops are not needed.
However, he knows, or will learn from Nale, that there is a 5th gate, and that Roy knows where it is. So he will use the army to overawe the party into surrender, and then make a "trade", allowing the party to get to the last gate.

[Fish]

Upon reflection, that army is meant to

...defend Bleedingham against its enemies.

Like the black fighter chick from the Free City of Doom.

You know, the one to whom Nale said, "The more people who want my father dead, the better. Here, take my card. Send to me if you change your mind."

So Tarquin's army will be out of position when, thanks to Nale, Tarquin's city is attacked.

[multilis]

Tarquin is not after the gate. He is not after a new world, not so easy to cross an ocean. This whole setup was to trap his *true* target.

Tarquin did not mind the death of his vampire friend, because Malack was already compromised.

I suggest you don't read the following because you will then know too much and it will spoil story in future.
Tarquin is bringing entire army to help capture Mr. Scruffy. Mr. Scruffy is more than just a cat.

[The Pilgrim]

As I said earlier, Tarquin has nothing to gain and everything to lose from sparing Nale's life. I really can't see any reason for him to change his mind about his son being an idiot after Nale screwed the pooch worse than usual right in front of him.

If anything, Tarquin is a pragmatic man. Killing Nale won't bring Malack back. So, why waste his son, specially now that he has shown to have enough wits to beat a 200-years-old vampire?

Specially now that his son has acted exactly how Tarquin has always advised him to? Playing the Fool until you get a tactical advantage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0820.html)?

If he had cared that much about Malack, he wouldn't have left him alone with his son.

No. Nale is his son, after all. And that beats "friendship".

I'm even starting to think that Tarquin knew his son was around in the Empire all along, but shut up to avoid having to chose sides in the feud. I mean, Tarquin had Thog in the Arena for months. He knew the elven ambassador was Z (he had a ring of true seeing, he knew the ambassador was a drow, but he didn't recognize Z? come on). And when a group of high level adventurers show up at his doorstep, he assumes they are working toghether until disproven (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html).

And, yeah, Elan is his son, too, and shares his love for dramatic conventions, but... he has one big flaw... he is good aligned. Tarquin needs him either dead or corrupted, and Nale is an useful tool for achieving either.

[GSFB]

What is the army for? The army is to SECURE the gate, as established in previous comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html).

My prediction:

There will be a parallel between the Canyon and Azure City. In both places, the gates were destroyed, but there are still open rifts with potential power. In AC, Xykon lost the gate but still used his army to seize the city. Tarquin may have lost this gate, but will still use his army to maintain control of the rift. Also, though the pyramid was destroyed, there are likely riches buried under the rubble - magic items previously intended to defend the pyramid, etc. Tarquin will surely want to employ his forces excavating the area and ensuring the full potential of it is realized.

[BlackDragonKing]

If anything, Tarquin is a pragmatic man. Killing Nale won't bring Malack back. So, why waste his son, specially now that he has shown to have enough wits to beat a 200-years-old vampire?

Specially now that his son has acted exactly how Tarquin has always advised him to? Playing the Fool until you get a tactical advantage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0820.html)?

As Tarquin also said, "better to play the fool than BE one". He's not optimistic, but he's also not delusional. Nale's a vicious snake, as Tarquin and the Order both know from what he HAS managed to accomplish, but this does not make him any less of a fool. For every step Nale takes right, he makes at least three more grave errors, and Nale makes no secret of his contempt for his father's rules and codes, despite the fact that they worked much better for Tarquin than Nale's evil schemes have ever worked for him. Nale can't be relied on to keep a low profile, play the game, be smart about when he takes revenge for his quasi-imagined slights; he's just not any good for what Tarquin's doing with this continent, and his ambition's been quite disruptive to Tarquin at least once in the past already.


If he had cared that much about Malack, he wouldn't have left him alone with his son.

No. Nale is his son, after all. And that beats "friendship".

I'm even starting to think that Tarquin knew his son was around in the Empire all along, but shut up to avoid having to chose sides in the feud. I mean, Tarquin had Thog in the Arena for months. He knew the elven ambassador was Z (he had a ring of true seeing, he knew the ambassador was a drow, but he didn't recognize Z? come on). And when a group of high level adventurers show up at his doorstep, he assumes they are working toghether until disproven (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html).

I believe Tarquin felt Malack could handle it; after all, Nale's only hope of managing to overcome Malack was to get rid of his protection at a time Malack wasn't expecting it and didn't have his backup. IE, not terribly often but just happened to come up in circumstances Tarquin is lying if he said he could predict. Besides, it wasn't supposed to come to that; Nale was supposed to show he could do something right for once and secure the gate, and "business" would be over at a time of Tarquin's choosing. I believe Tarquin intended to give Nale the opportunity to keep buying his life a little longer, but a pragmatist like Tarquin swapping out the reliable old cleric for a badly classed power-hungry dullard? I don't see where that fits the just as planned thing.

Secondly, Z wasn't there when Tarquin flashed back to his "disagreement" with Nale; it's entirely possible that Z and Hilgya were later additions to the Linear Guild, as Tarquin gives signs he knows Sabine and Thog of old but never makes any sort of gesture like that towards Z.


And, yeah, Elan is his son, too, and shares his love for dramatic conventions, but... he has one big flaw... he is good aligned. Tarquin needs him either dead or corrupted, and Nale is an useful tool for achieving either.

Au contraire, Elan being a hero is actually a gigantic plus in Tarquin's esteem, even if Tarquin did believe in the alignment system (he doesn't). As he mentioned in his pun-fight with Elan, he saw the differences between the two of them as purely philosophical, and certainly not a reason to treat him any differently. On top of that, Tarquin WANTS Elan to succeed. The Order preventing Xykon from achieving world domination is an important goal to him, since Xykon is sure to interfere in his REGIONAL domination, but after that, Tarquin's also gaming the system and would, on the whole, prefer that Elan be the one that ends up beating him at the end compared to some random paladin or a peasant with class levels. Tarquin's too genre savvy to think he's building a thousand-year empire that will never be defeated; but he got into this game knowing playing it smart can let him build an empire that lets him live like a god for the duration of his lifetime, and Elan in play as a hero gives him a suitably dramatic exit into legend. An evil overlord that dies quietly of old age is a boring story, although Tarquin is probably OK with evading karma for the entirety of his natural life. An evil overlord getting overthrown by his incompetent son's attempts to seize power is also a lousy ending, and I refuse to believe someone as acquainted with the Evil Overlord List as Tarquin hasn't prepared for the inevitable attempt by Nale to betray him and seize power. Elan succeeding in his quest and coming back to give Tarquin an awesome finale to his conquest in a decade or two is a pretty awesome solution from Tarquin's perspective, so he has no reason to allow Elan to die.

As for corruption, what for? Since Tarquin got into this business knowing he's going to get killed by a do-gooder one day (after ruling the roost for years, of course), so I don't think he's actually all that concerned about what happens to all of it after he's gone. Elan's not cut out to run an empire, and Tarquin's not the kind of character that seems inclined to force that kind of thing on Elan, especially when having a heroic son oppose him is doing wonders for Tarquin's narrative sensibilities. He knows already that Nale would likely lead any kingdom he inherited to its ruin in his petty egotism, so it's not like either son is exactly primed or expected to step into his boots when he's gone. To be honest, the only thought I think Tarquin's spared the empire post-Tarquin is that he's OK with Malack running it so long as he gets a big statue.

So, really, no, I can't think of any way that Nale hanging around benefits Tarquin at all, and Tarquin might be a good bad guy, but he's not the sort that does things that don't help him in any way.

[Amphiox]

My feeling is that Tarquin probably did have a preference regarding the conflict between Nale and Malack, but he decided very early on that devoting time, resources, and effort into ensuring that particular preferred outcome was not worth it, and, having made that decision, accepted the reality that he was going to lose one of them to the other, and made contingency plans for either outcome that he believes that he can live with.

And he will keep the truth about what his original preferred outcome was to himself, and not reveal that unless it is advantageous for him to do so.

And we may never actually find out....

[Mike Havran]

I think that between Tarquin's reaction to Malack's death, the arrival of apparently purposeless army and the destruction of the gate, there is one angle we haven't considered yet.

Tarquin probably scried on Nale and saw the destruction of the gate and what remained. That's pretty okay for him. He didn't know what to do with it, exactly, anyway. Securing it would be expensive and just asking for trouble.

So now we have rift that leads to some ocean. Going there with the army and trying to conquer the world would be dangerous and stupid. But what if...what if he managed to bring the water from the rift into this world?

His army sappers would excavate the area around the rift and, with some magic help from Ioun Stone Lady, the water from the otherworld ocean would start to pour into the Girard's Crater in Windy Canyon, forming river, or possibly lake Tarquin - the one and only river in the Great Barren Desert. The army would start building fortress and protect the area.

Even if the water had high saltiness and was directly non-drinkable, it would be a large boost to the morale of the people. If it was drinkable, the Empire would gain, in a few years, a fertile land. The story of the Grand Expedition of General Tarquin would be written in the history of the Werstern Continent in gilded letters and his name would be immortalized forever.

[The Pilgrim]

Nale can't be relied on to keep a low profile, play the game, be smart about when he takes revenge for his quasi-imagined slights; he's just not any good for what Tarquin's doing with this continent, and his ambition's been quite disruptive to Tarquin at least once in the past already.

Has been? Tarquin has beaten his ass every time Nale has attempted to oppose him.

I don't think Tarquin feels Nale is really a menace to him. He takes it all as a game and firmly belives he can manipulate his son to do his bidding.


but a pragmatist like Tarquin swapping out the reliable old cleric for a badly classed power-hungry dullard? I don't see where that fits the just as planned thing.

Never said it was. But fact is, it happened, and Tarquin is not going to waste more resources now.


Secondly, Z wasn't there when Tarquin flashed back to his "disagreement" with Nale

But Z was in the "Wanted Posted". Hence, Z was already with Nale back them and Tarquin knew about him.


Elan succeeding in his quest and coming back to give Tarquin an awesome finale to his conquest in a decade or two is a pretty awesome solution from Tarquin's perspective, so he has no reason to allow Elan to die.

I wouldn't take what Tarquin said to Elan at face value.


As for corruption, what for?

To be his successor, if Nale proves unworth of it.

Corrupting a good, pure being into everything his first wife depises seems like a fitting objective for Tarquin.

[Diadem]

I'll be disappointed if Tarquin doesn't snuff Nale in the next few comics. I've hated the linear guild from the very start, and think this comic would be better without them in it. The sooner their story line ends permanently, the better.

And it seems very out of character for Tarquin to tolerate his son's foolishness any longer. His friendship with Malack also seems to have been genuine. So plenty of reasons to take out Nale.

I also expect Tarquin to help the Order. Because why would he oppose them?

[happycrow]

I have a wacky interpretation that probably doesn't hold water, but based on how I perceive Tarquin, which is that he really doesn't care about a lot of things the audience does.

What if the pyramid goes away and thus you can scry locally. What does Tarquin see?

1. Team Evil (which wasn't there and therefore was plausibly on the pyramid/near-the-pyramid, etc) having just been TRASHED (anybody seen my pelvis?), and going off to the next presumable gate.
2. The OOTS being ****-up-a-creek and in the middle of a three-way brawl they can't handle (creatures, elemental).
3. Nale and his sidekick handily knocking off Malack (fair game), while Malack's "child" offs the (from Tarquin's perspective) completely second-rate and unimportant drow (poetic justice), and then rejoins the OOTS (thus helping Elan, which is fine).

So, with the camera rolling from this point forward, the mission is basically a success. "Business" was handled (gate defended from Zykon), after which "personal" happened and came out with Nale on top. No harm, no foul. Tarquin doesn't know why the gate exploded, but Nale's team got out of the gate explosion in better shape than Team Evil did (objectively speaking), so from his perspective, "let's see how you handle a team on your own" comes out with "Not bad. That wasn't quite as abject a failure as I expected, and your jump on Malack was pretty okay, but you're still failing to plan for the long term and not really ready for prime-time."

[exenia]

There's no reason to assume scrying was blocked, since Cloister was Dorukan's thing and had a limited duration. The gate itself was warded, not the entire pyramid or valley. So I don't see any reason why Tarquin would be rolling in blind, and the army is coming along to prove some kind of point, either to Nale or OOTS.

Tarquin is great at keeping his hand hidden, I don't think anyone can reliably guess what he's about to lay down, except that it'll be worked to his benefit as much as possible. Maintaining authority from the shadows is still his primary motivation.

[The Pilgrim]

There's no reason to assume scrying was blocked

Tarquin's late wife failed to find Orrin Draketooth through divinations (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html).

Nale had to make Z scry on every part of the desert (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html) and assumed the Gate was in the Canyon because it was the only place at which the scrying failed to work at all.

[Alabenson]

Assuming Tarquin has been keeping tabs on what's been transpiring at the Gate, I'd say this turn of events bodes much worse for Nale than it does for Elan. From what we've seen of Tarquin, he values people based on the following;
1) Their ability to further the narrative legacy Tarquin has picked out for himself.
2) Their ability to further Tarquin's plans to conquer the Western Continent.

The former is why Tarquin values Elan as much as he does; Elan's role as the plucky hero that must battle his evil overlord father will do wonders for Tarquin's legacy as a villain. Nale, on the other hand, is detrimental to both of Tarquin's goals. Let's recap what Tarquin may or may not know thus far, depending on how thorough he's been at gathering intel;
1) The 'allies' that Nale claimed he had, and who were the ones who could control the gate, are Recloak and Xykon. Given Xykon's penchant for scenery chewing evil and Redcloak's focus on the goblin race over all else, it's highly unlikely that Tarquin is going to consider an alliance with either. Thus, Nale will be seen as utterly useless on that end.
2) Even if Tarquin had been able to use the Gate in some manner, Nale's impatience and stupidity allowed it to be destroyed by the Order of the Stick.
3) Given an easy opportunity to destroy his brother, Nale instead decided to assassinate Malack. And while Tarquin might have been able to forgive that, Nale's methodology cost him his wizard and allowed Durkula to rejoin the OoTS, thus weakening himself and strengthening Elan at the same time.

Tarquin is a villain who has not only read the Evil Overlord list, but has passed on parts of it to his subordinates. Nale has thus fare proven that he is not only untrustworthy, but thoroughly incompetent. At this point, any plans Tarquin may have had to re-recruit Nale are likely dead, and given that that means that Tarquin has no more reason to keep Nale alive, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Tarquin simply kills his inept, evil son and usurps his place in the narrative.

[Amphiox]

I don't think Tarquin feels Nale is really a menace to him.

That is also what Malack thought. Perhaps Tarquin will be more correct than his former companion. Perhaps not.


I wouldn't take what Tarquin said to Elan at face value.

I see Tarquin as playing contingencies here. IF Elan succeeds in his quest and IF Elan comes back to overthrow him in an epic confrontation 20 years from now, he's fine with that.

But if Elan fails in his quest, or dies, or fails to overthrow him, he gets to live like a king for another 10-20 years (and still be the star antagonist of an epic story, just instead of an epic hero quest, it becomes an epic tragedy), and he's fine with that.

And if he corrupts Elan and Elan becomes his successor and carries on his legacy, he's fine with that too. (And he'll STILL be the star of an epic story, only now it is an epic generational tale of villain protagonists, a-la The Godfather series)

And IF Elan is not successfully corrupted, but Nale rises to the challenge to dispose of Elan and become Tarquin's successor, that's just another variant of the Godfather type epic tale, and he'll be fine with that too.

What I think he won't be fine with is being defeated anti-climactically, anonymously, as a tertiary antagonist, or too soon.

[Amphiox]

Tarquin's late wife failed to find Orrin Draketooth through divinations (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html).

Nale had to make Z scry on every part of the desert (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html) and assumed the Gate was in the Canyon because it was the only place at which the scrying failed to work at all.

Back that was either before or at best soon after all the Draketooths died. Whatever anti-divination defences they set up cannot last forever. They may have faded by now.

[Fish]

Back that was either before or at best soon after all the Draketooths died. Whatever anti-divination defences they set up cannot last forever. They may have faded by now.
It hadn't faded as of an hour ago when Durkon cast Find Tha Path.

And the Draketooths have been dead for weeks -- and still Zz'dtri could not scry on them, long after the Familicide spell wiped them out.

I don't think the smart money is on "Tarquin scryed on everything because the magic has faded." Maybe he scryed, if he had sufficient power -- but as far as we know, Divination is out.

Here's proof: if Tarquin could have scryed prior to coming in with his army, he could also have scryed prior to coming to the Canyon the first time. Nale would not have been hoodwinked by the "your gate is in another pyramid" routine if the Linears had scryed on the pyramid.

[Amphiox]

It hadn't faded as of an hour ago when Durkon cast Find Tha Path.

And the Draketooths have been dead for weeks -- and still Zz'dtri could not scry on them, long after the Familicide spell wiped them out.

I don't think the smart money is on "Tarquin scryed on everything because the magic has faded." Maybe he scryed, if he had sufficient power -- but as far as we know, Divination is out.

Here's proof: if Tarquin could have scryed prior to coming in with his army, he could also have scryed prior to coming to the Canyon the first time. Nale would not have been hoodwinked by the "your gate is in another pyramid" routine if the Linears had scryed on the pyramid.

Scenario to consider:

It was the pyramid itself, or the Gate itself that was the focus powering the anti-divination spell. The spell dissipated the moment the gate was destroyed.

Tarquin scried after the gate blew up and saw the aftermath.

[veti]

I see Tarquin as playing contingencies here. IF Elan succeeds in his quest and IF Elan comes back to overthrow him in an epic confrontation 20 years from now, he's fine with that.

Well, he'll certainly tell Elan he's fine with that, because it gets Elan off his back for the time being. If you remember, Xykon spun much the same line (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html) to Roy. Roy didn't buy it either.

I still don't believe for a second that he has any intention of going gentle into that evil night in 20 years' time, though. By then he'll have come up with a way to keep going a few more years. He's smarter than Malack, which means he knows there is no such thing as a permanent solution; but it takes a special kind of person to be able to face your own death with equanimity at any time, and I don't think Tarquin will ever be that person.

[happycrow]

That's pretty much what I was positing in my post above. And that doesn't paint Nale in a particularly awful light.

Not an awe-inspiring one, but then again, Nale's never come within an order of magnitude of his father's ability or achievement, either.

[Taelas]

But Z was in the "Wanted Posted". Hence, Z was already with Nale back them and Tarquin knew about him.

"Subtype and gender unknown."

He did not know Z.

[Fish]

Scenario to consider:

It was the pyramid itself, or the Gate itself that was the focus powering the anti-divination spell. The spell dissipated the moment the gate was destroyed.

Tarquin scried after the gate blew up and saw the aftermath.
He scryed the area. Then mustered all those troops, dinosaurs, and far-flung magical allies. In the last 30 seconds.

No, I still doubt it. Redcloak cast his elemental spell not 2 rounds after the pyramid blew. The spell only lasts a few minutes, tops. It was still active 10 seconds ago.

There hasn't been a lot of time to spend scrying. It's possible, but I doubt it very much.

[The Pilgrim]

"Subtype and gender unknown."

He did not know Z.

He does not know Z but he puts him in a Wanted Poster. Funny.

Can't you recognize a joke on "I don't want to meddle into copyright issues"? You know, since Z was first defeated by V thanks to the Lawyers, it was like a running gag.

[Taelas]

He does not know Z but he puts him in a Wanted Poster. Funny.

Can't you recognize a joke on "I don't want to meddle into copyright issues"? You know, since Z was first defeated by V thanks to the Lawyers, it was like a running gag.

Nothing about "drow wizard" has anything to do with copyright--such a joke would be too feeble to expect from the Giant. Z was only ever like Drizzt in that Nale used Drizzt's existence to excuse why a "Good" party would have a drow. (Also, Z's name being an anagram of "Drizzt", and the two scimitars deal.) Drizzt is a CG drow ranger.

Tarquin knew Nale had an elf wizard working for him. That's it.

[BlackDragonKing]

Well, he'll certainly tell Elan he's fine with that, because it gets Elan off his back for the time being. If you remember, Xykon spun much the same line (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html) to Roy. Roy didn't buy it either.

Well, see, in that case, it's completely in character that Xykon legitimately doesn't care. Roy's just not important enough for Xykon to remember who he is from one encounter to the next, let alone get all bothered about it. Getting Roy off his back is just Xykon being lazy and letting Roy wander off, not caring if he ever makes it back to fight him later. This is different from Tarquin realizing that Elan succeeding in defeating him actually turns the sucky last five minutes of his scheme into another win for him; what reason does he have to lie about that? This isn't a comic where "because he's EVIL" ever really works towards why most villains do what they do. Tarquin's got a point that Elan going off to be a hero that opposes his empire down the road is a no-lose scenario for him; "If I win, I get to be a king. If I lose, I get to be a legend."


I still don't believe for a second that he has any intention of going gentle into that evil night in 20 years' time, though. By then he'll have come up with a way to keep going a few more years. He's smarter than Malack, which means he knows there is no such thing as a permanent solution; but it takes a special kind of person to be able to face your own death with equanimity at any time, and I don't think Tarquin will ever be that person.

On the contrary, I think Tarquin's precisely that kind of person; not going gently into the night, of course, he's already told Elan he's not taking a dive and Elan's going to get a rather painful lesson on premature confrontation if he tries to force the issue before he's able to defeat Tarquin next time. Tarquin's an extremely pragmatic villain, which Nale mistakes for lack of ambition; Tarquin simply accepted a lower risk plan with much greater stability. Everyone fails to take over the world, and Tarquin knows that, but guys like him that run big evil empires can have a sweet ride their entire remaining lives as long as they never forget such guys tend to be killed by some random do-gooder at the end of it all. Tarquin's all about situations where he can't help but win, even when it's not the way he'd personally rather do it; the Enor and Gannji getting away was not the result he'd been interested in, and it made him a little angry, but he looked on the bright side and pointed out how even this negative result was a minor victory for him. That's the kind of mind I think we're dealing with; Tarquin getting killed down the line by a paladin or Elan is something he's OK with as long as it marks the passage from a long, successful life of luxury to the realm of legend. Where he's going to object is when the prospect of death becomes...losing. :smalleek:

Tarquin's genre savvy enough to be realistic about what's likely going to end his reign based on the genre conventions of his universe, but he's gaming that system so getting taken down as the epic villain who will have a badass story to tell when he's gone means he's still coming out on top even if he doesn't get away with it the rest of his natural life. What he's NOT OK with is a crappy ending to his narrative; a boring, anonymous or disappointingly abrupt death is what Tarquin would fear, not having a grand finale where he either wins and reigns unopposed until age comes for him or loses and tells the greatest story ever in doing so.

Tarquin's not like Redcloak or Xykon or Nale; he's not playing the big game, but the game he's playing, while smaller, is set up so much in his favor that it's one Elan needs to think outside the box to stop him from winning by default.

[veti]

On the contrary, I think Tarquin's precisely that kind of person; not going gently into the night, of course, he's already told Elan he's not taking a dive and Elan's going to get a rather painful lesson on premature confrontation if he tries to force the issue before he's able to defeat Tarquin next time.

You know, you're right. I may have misjudged Tarquin. In trying to understand him as a villain, I've been overlooking what he really is, in the most fundamental essence of his being.

He's not "just" a villain - like Redcloak or Xykon or Nale, who were conceived from the start as NPCs. He's something far more than any of them. He's a retired PC.

Seen in that light, his plan suddenly becomes a lot more plausible. He really doesn't care much about dying, because his "player"* is now playing someone else (possibly Elan*). But every player likes to see their former PCs elevated to greatness, or even legend, and that's what Tarquin's talking about: not some vague generalised "posterity", but specifically what he himself, in the form of his next character*, will hear about him.

It also adds a new dimension to Elan's horror here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html). Elan's player sees what the DM has twisted his** former creation into, and realises that he** has been outwitted. It sets the seal on Elan's determination to bring his dad down.

* Yes, I know there are no actual players. But the Giant is writing a story set within the framework of a D&D campaign, which means that there are implicit players, even if he never writes about them directly. I find that thinking about these hypothetical people sometimes throws light on the story-as-told, and this is one of those times.

** I'm assuming it's a guy, for pronoun purposes only - there's absolutely no evidence either way, nor likely to be.

[Clyner]

I don't think Nale will die here. Regardless of whether Tarquin believes nale's story or not he can infer that his son has lost and that Durkon has rejoined the order. Also, he tends to avoid face-to-face confrontations unless he is in complete control of the situation. Nale's not in trouble until he hears the words "dimensional anchor". :smallbiggrin: