Psions and Power Acquisition

[Segev]

So, aside from a few esoteric rules tricks, the three mechanisms for a Psion to gain more powers than his class simply grants him at each level are:
Expanded Knowledge (feat)
Psychic Chirurgery (power)
Independent Research

The first is by far the most reliable, requiring nothing other than the feat slot to gain whatever power you want (up to one level lower than your normal maximum). The second relies on at least being able to find a Psion of sufficient level to have it, who is willing to use it (paying at least 500 XP per level of the power you want to learn), and who has the power in question to teach you. The third is arguably 100% DM fiat whether it's allowed or not, thanks to the clause saying, "If characters are allowed to develop new powers." (It's arguable that that's more a question of whether they are allowed to invent new ones, the way it's questionable if wizards can invent new spells, depending on the DM and campaign.)

However, of the three, why would you ever choose the second over the third? 500 XP/power level vs. 200 XP per power level, and you have to convince a powerful Psion to spend the 500 XP as well in the former case. The only downside comparatively seems to be the time it takes to do the research (1 week/power level for the research method, and 10 min. for Psychic Chirurgery), and given the fact you likely will need to go on a quest to find, as well as to pay back, any psion who will get you the power(s) you want, that probably comes out as a wash at worst.

So, is there a reason to use the second method over the third? Is it likely a DM would forbid the third but not the second, but still allow you to find what you're looking for anyway?

[AmberVael]

Having used Chirurgery before... because of this line:


If you and the subject are both willing to do so, you can split this cost evenly.

Can and willing. If you can persuade the caster, you don't have to spend any XP at all... just gold. For higher level characters, this can be quite an appealing option, if an expensive one.

[Segev]

I believe the going rate for XP->gp conversion is 1:5, so that'd be 5000 gp per power level plus the cost of paying for the Psychic Chirurgery manifestation (which is, IIRC, 7650 gp by itself). Are high-level PCs really that flush with gp?

[AmberVael]

I believe the going rate for XP->gp conversion is 1:5, so that'd be 5000 gp per power level plus the cost of paying for the Psychic Chirurgery manifestation (which is, IIRC, 7650 gp by itself). Are high-level PCs really that flush with gp?

I don't think manifestating is calculated differently than spellcasting, so a single casting of Chirurgery would be 1530 + 5(XP). But yes, high level characters have a lot of money (admittedly you're only going to be able to spend that much without consideration at epic).

Admittedly the higher level powers would cost significantly more, but one of the cool things about psionics is that low level powers remain viable pretty much forever. So investing in low level powers at a high level is a completely viable (and far less costly) tactic.

[Psyren]

The big problem with Independent Research is that it still uses up your powers known. This rule is often missed because it is in the XPH, but for some reason not the SRD. So if you're capped on powers known and feats, Chirurgery is your only option for learning more powers.

[Segev]

The big problem with Independent Research is that it still uses up your powers known. This rule is often missed because it is in the XPH, but for some reason not the SRD. So if you're capped on powers known and feats, Chirurgery is your only option for learning more powers.

Ah! So research is actually something you do BEFORE you level and pick up powers, rather than something you do to gain more powers as you go? What page is that on in the XPH? I can look it up when I get home tonight.

[Psyren]

I'm AFB so can't get you the exact page. The line is something like "a psionic character cannot increase his powers known beyond the normal for your level through research" or something like that.

It should be on the same page as the research entry itself.

[AmberVael]

I've got a book though- page 64, the very last sentence of the research section.

The number of powers that all psionic classes can know is strictly limited; manifesters can never exceed those limits even through the research of original powers.

Forgot that rule myself, though I've seen it before. Trust Psyren to recall all the minutiae. :smallwink:

[Segev]

A disappointing answer, but one that makes sense in light of Psychic Chirurgery's enormous costs compared to those for research. Makes researching other-Discipline powers sound somewhat reasonable, since you're basically spending exp for the privilege to spend your powers known on powers you normally couldn't.

...and it seems to me I may have forgotten one other method:
Psicrowns - they let you manifest using your stats and ML if they're better than those of the psicrown creator, and, as items that store PP, they can be recharged on a 1:1 basis.

At least, that's assuming the latter half of the above is accurate. Staves, outside of PF, cannot normally be recharged, and Psicrowns are the "psionic staff" equivalent. But the rules for items that store PP say they can be recharged. Does the fact the Psicrown's PP can only be spent on the Psicrown's own powers make it not eligible for this recharging?

[Psyren]

That's the one. And thank you for the compliment.

For an effect to exceed your maximum, it must explicitly state that it can - which both EK and Chirurgery do.



At least, that's assuming the latter half of the above is accurate. Staves, outside of PF, cannot normally be recharged, and Psicrowns are the "psionic staff" equivalent. But the rules for items that store PP say they can be recharged. Does the fact the Psicrown's PP can only be spent on the Psicrown's own powers make it not eligible for this recharging?

Psicrowns are rechargeable. The general rule is that any item that stores PP can be recharged (which psicrowns do) and nothing in their entry overrides that rule.

[Segev]

Which makes Psicrowns incredibly awesome items, since they are effectively massive extensions of both versatility and overall power for the Psion - and especially the Wilder.

If you never expend more pp/day than your normal total, you can always fully recharge the psicrown. If you do, you can recharge on days you spend less. It's effectively a permanent item.


Get yourself an item of Psychic Reformation that can trigger once per day, and you can probably reshape your powers known enough to iteratively forge a psicrown with whatever you want. Such an item would cost (4x7x1800/5 + 50x5x50)=(10080 + 12500)=22,580 gp, market value. It can reform only one level back, but that's enough to re-choose one of your powers every day. And since it pays for its own XP cost (that's what the 50x5x50 is for; 50 xp times 5 gp/xp times 50 for it being a charged daily item), it's totally free when used.

75,400 gp would get you one that would let you reshape your last level as many times per day as you liked.

[Psyren]

One drawback to Psicrowns is that they take up your headband slot; Psions in particular would want a Headband of Intellect in that slot, so it could be a tradeoff. Of course, if your DM allows custom items creation, you can always pay the 50% markup and craft both a psicrown and HoI into one item. You could also alternate between them, but then you would miss out on the +6 Int while using the crown. Compare to a Wizard, who can wear a HoI and use a stave at the same time, benefiting from both.

[AmberVael]

Using the MIC rules for common effects you could combine them at no cost, of course- and they are official rules rather than a variant. Assuming that won't be houseruled away is not at all unreasonable.

[Segev]

Somewhat related question, on the subject of "ways to get just one power," does anybody know where the Astral Legion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/psicrowns.htm#astralLegion) psicrown gets its price? It's a 1st level power, the crown is 18th ML, but if you divide its price by the 750 that is the basic multiplier for psicrowns, you get 63. Divide that by 18 (the manifester level of the item), and you get 3.5. That's not a power level.

Shouldn't the cost of the Astral Legion psicrown be 750x(1 [power level])x(18 [ML]) = 13,500 gp?

Even if the logic is that, because it can be augmented up to 18pp total, it is a 9th level power, the price should be different from what's listed.

What am I missing?

[Rubik]

The Soul Crystal power from Magic of Incarnum allows the manifester to create what amounts to a power stone that anyone can manifest from using the powers in the crystal and the manifester's stats, and all it costs are some power points. No XP costs, no GP costs, and very little time involved in actually creating them. They don't last forever, though...unless you have access to Quintessence, of course.

Very good for cheap, disposable items to manifest from.

[Segev]

I almost question the wisdom of that power; it seems like it's custom-designed for shenanigans. ^^;

Sorry for harping, but can anybody check my last post in this thread and enlighten me as to where the price for a Psicrown of the Astral Legion gets its market price?

[erikun]

The price of a psicrown (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/creatingPsionicItems.htm#creatingPsicrowns) is 375gp x level of the highest level power x manifester level. If you want to use a higher manifester level than required, then you increase the ML to the desired level and increase the effective level of the power by 1 for every 2 ML increased.

Astral Construct is a 1st level power requiring ML1. The psicrown is set at ML 18. As such, the power is considered to be at +8 level, or a 9th level power.

375gp x 9 x 18 = 60750gp. You're actually getting quite a discount on the market price compared to one designed with the crafting rules.

[Segev]

I always forget the "effective power level +1 for every +2 ML" bit. Given that psicrowns already consume their extra power points, it always feels a bit like paying twice. But I do understand why.

Still, it BUGS me that it's not 60k gp, because I can't figure out how they came up with that price.

[Segev]

And, actually, 375 is the base multiplier for crafting a psicrown. A 9th level power should be 121500 gp in an 18th ML psicrown.

So yeah, it doesn't follow the formula, which bugs me, because it means I can't modify it by adjusting MLs and the like.