Flowing Monk Optimized Build

[Pax_Chi]

Hey folks. Been a while since I've posted on these parts, but I've been getting back into 3.5, broke out my old Book of Nine Swords book, started looking into Pathfinder, and I think the latter's done some interesting things with the Monk class, and was wondering if I could get some tips on how to optimize the kind of Monk I'd want to play, and if it's a viable option in Pathfinder. I know Monks are still generally underpowered compared to other classes (something that'd at least be partially mitigated with a full BAB, but that's not a new complaint), but I'm hopeful the kind of Monk I want to play might work.

In any case, I was looking through Ultimate Combat, and I really like the concept of the Flowing Monk, as I've always preferred those soft/internal martial arts stylists who are about evasion, turning an opponents power against them, heavy on defense, etc. The Flowing Monk conceptually seems to play into that, but I'm not sure about how well it'd work functionally. Hence I turn to all of you for advice.

This style would seem to rely more on a good CMD, would involve a lot of tripping/repositioning and such, so I'm looking at Feats like Agile Maneuvers, Weapon Fines, Improved Trip/Reposition/Disarm, Ki Throw, Elusive Redirection and the Crane Style Feats. The Crane Styles in particular seem like a nice mechanical and thematic way to get the Monk I'm going for, since there'd rarely be a reason NOT to fight Defensively to get that AC bonus.

I was also looking at the Sensei Monk archetype, and that Wisdom in place of Strength for BAB and CMD seems REALLY useful, to the point I was wondering if it's possible to Multi-Class as a Sensei Monk for 2 levels and then go Flowing Monk the rest of the way? Unless there's a Feat that lets you do that which I'm unaware of.

Anyway, thanks in advance for any help in this, hope to see what you all have to add.

[Nightraiderx]

Unarmed Swordsage levels for some setting sun manuever stuff and falling sun strike. Combat Expertise and Improved Trip from 3.5 And if you want the ultimate use the power against them, look into Races of Eberron for Kalastar, they have a nice set of feats that allows you to use combat expertise/full defense action and then get the bonus to your attack bonus the next turn.
Also look into skill tricks of complete scoundrel, they will also help with some size disadvantages.

[Psyren]

Unfortunately there is no way by RAW to combine Flowing Monk and Sensei because they both replace some of the same features (fast movement and some of the bonus feats.) Your DM would have to houserule it.

However, you can by RAW combine Flowing Monk with Monk of the Sacred Mountain, and if you're going for a defensive monk this seems like a good combination (if you're not up against a lot of blasters anyway.) You do lose Evasion, but the rest of it is pretty good - you get higher AC, HP, DR/-, inability to be moved or knocked prone by almost anything (including spells), a shield bonus to AC and CMD, and you replace the crappy Tongue of the Sun and Moon with a Vow of Silence that increases your defenses even further.

[Person_Man]

Your general observation on the power level of the 3.5 or PF Monk is correct. It is Tier 5 or Tier 4 at best, and no matter how much jiggering you do with optimization, you're not really going to get past that. The general advice is to play a Swordsage or homebrew fix (of which there are many) instead.

Having said that, here are the Pathfinder Monk tips that I know:


I would suggest that you take the time to read through all of the various Monk Feats and Archetypes, especially the more obscure ones in the Campaign Setting books (most of which aren't in the PFSRD) if you can get your hands on them. I know a couple Pathfinder freelance writers, and they're well aware of "the Monk problem" and have tried to address it to the best of their limited ability. I can't remember exact names offhand, but its definitely worth your time.


Ask your DM if you can mix and match Archetypes. No DM is going to allow you to trade away the same class ability more then once, but they might let you trade away class features piecemeal, so that you can cherry pick the best options from each.


Hungry Ghost Archetype (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/coreClasses/monk.html): Steal Ki ability gives you a steady steam of Ki, as long as you have a high crit range Keen weapon. This can be fairly potent, since a lot of Monk abilities burn through Ki.


Buy a Ring of Ki Mastery (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/ringsRodsStaves/rings.html#_ring-of-ki-mastery). It offers several minor buffs, plus the important ability to reduce the cost of 2 point Ki abilities to 1 point.


If you're playing in a mid-level game and happen to roll really high (this is a very MAD build), you might want to consider a Paladin/Hungry Ghost Monk/Champion of Irori. Champion lets you Smite Evil or Chaos or Lay on Hands for 2 Ki points (1 with the Ring of Ki). Smite is very potent in Pathfinder, and this basically lets Smite and Lay Hands every combat. Though I wouldn't suggest it for a high level game, since you'd be missing out on other better high level class abilities to get this.


Qinggong Monk (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spellcastingClassOptions/monk.html#_qinggong-monk-%28archetype%29) lets you cast certain spells as spell-like abilities with Ki. Although your spell selection will be fairly limited, being able to spam Dragon's Breath (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/spells/dragonSBreath.html#_dragon%27s-breath) or Ki Shout (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/kiShout.html#_ki-shout) can be very handy.


Bewildering Koan (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/bewildering-koan-general) Feat: Must be a Gnome with Ki (Monk or Ninja). As a swift action, spend 1 point and make a Bluff check. (vs Sense Motive, according to the writer's forum post (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8dmh/discuss&page=2?Pathfinder-Companion-Gnomes-of-Golarion#72)). If the creature fails, it loses it's next action (which is again defined by the writer as the creature's full turn in a forum post). A hugely potent way to lock down an enemy, since it's easy to boost Skills.


In general, even if you don't have some way of replacing it, don't be afraid to burn through Ki points quickly. If Wizards can demand that the party rest to memorize spells, you can demand that the party rest to replace Ki.


If you end up as a Flowing Monk, be sure to partner with a Rogue or Ninja using the Sap Master feat. You make enemies Flat Footed, and they deal massive damage against them. Also, Redirection/Reposition is very useful if you have an ally who can cast Wall of Fire or Blade Barrier or something similar, in that they can cast it next to you, and you can move enemies into it as they try to attack you.