I have a doubt with multipliers when I make Critical hit with a Charge

[Rougy]

Well, I have a lance, Spirited Charge feat, Riding Boots and Rhino's Rush spell.

Lance critical is x3. A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount, but is you have Spirited Charge feat you deals triple damage and riding boots, only in critical hits, deals quadruple damage.

Rhino's rush spell
"This spell allows you to propel yourself in a single deadly charge. The first charge attack you make before the end of the round deals double damage on a successful hit."

What would be the total multiplier?

Thanks in advance.

[Nerd-o-rama]

There's often a lot of arguing because of how the different abilities are phrased, but the general rule in D&D is that whenever you double something already doubled (redouble), you triple it instead, and so on, adding one to the multiplier for every additional doubling. I think it's accepted but not stated that you add two to the multiplier for a tripling, and three for a quadrupling. Spirited Charge in specific states that double damage from a lance becomes triple with that feat.

Riding Boots state


In addition, if the wearer has the Spirited Charge feat, any charge attacks she makes while mounted and wielding a lance deal ×4 damage on a critical hit, instead of the normal ×3.

(DMG2, 270)

So your lance's critical multiplier starts at x4 from the combination of Spirited Charge and the boots.

Your damage is going to look like

Base Damage*(4 [Lance's crit multiplier with Riding Boots]+1 [Lance's double damage on a charge]+1 [Spirited Charge's double damage on a charge]+1 [Rhino's Rush's double damage on a charge]

For a total of Base Damage*7. Spirited Charge is adding to your multiplier twice, but that seems to be an intentional synergy that's build into Riding Boots.

[Fax Celestis]

All critical modifiers are additive. In this case, your multiplier for a spirited charge mounted critical with the boots would be x7:

Base is x1
Critical: +2
Mounted lance: +1
Spirited Charge: +1
Riding Boots: +1
Rhino's Rush: +1

[Galvin]

x27, if I'm not mistaken. All the doubling and tripleing and what-not apply to the base x3, not the already modified version. If that were true, it would be x72, not x27.

[Firechanter]

Your multipliers on a crit are:
x3 Spirited Charge /w Lance
x4 Critical /w Riding Boots
x2 Rhino's Rush

However, all multipliers are applied to your BASE damage. So your total multiplier is x7. Which is not too bad, btw. ;)

You can add another x2 by using a Valorous Lance, btw. (Forgotten Realms), this would pump your multiplier to x8 total on a crit.

[eggynack]

x27, if I'm not mistaken. All the doubling and tripleing and what-not apply to the base x3, not the already modified version. If that were true, it would be x72, not x27.
Nope. As others have noted, multipliers are weird and additive. If you apply a *2 to a *3, you end up with a *4.

[Galvin]

Nope. As others have noted, multipliers are weird and additive. If you apply a *2 to a *3, you end up with a *4.

Yeah, I'm just an idiot with math.:smallbiggrin:

[Fax Celestis]

x27, if I'm not mistaken. All the doubling and tripleing and what-not apply to the base x3, not the already modified version. If that were true, it would be x72, not x27.

nooooo


Multiplying
Sometimes a rule makes you multiply a number or a die roll. As long as you’re applying a single multiplier, multiply the number normally. When two or more multipliers apply to any abstract value (such as a modifier or a die roll), however, combine them into a single multiple, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. Thus, a double (×2) and a double (×2) applied to the same number results in a triple (×3, because 2 + 1 = 3).
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#multiplying

[Keneth]

Nope. As others have noted, multipliers are weird and additive. If you apply a *2 to a *3, you end up with a *4.

They're not weird at all, they just modify the base value rather than the multiplied value. It keeps things in checks. :smalltongue:

[Nerd-o-rama]

Your multipliers on a crit are:
x3 Spirited Charge /w Lance
x4 Critical /w Riding Boots
x2 Rhino's Rush

However, all multipliers are applied to your BASE damage. So your total multiplier is x7. Which is not too bad, btw. ;)

You can add another x2 by using a Valorous Lance, btw. (Forgotten Realms), this would pump your multiplier to x8 total on a crit.

Also useful with this plan is Leap Attack, if you can fast-talk your DM into letting you do that on a mount. Adding triple the Power Attack penalty into your base damage gives some pretty ludicrous returns on investment.

[Galvin]

nooooo


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#multiplying

See above.:smallbiggrin:

[Rougy]

Thanks to all, for fast response. Now I understand how works the multipliers. Is x7, thats good. Not Forgottem Realms :'( but a x7 is ok for me.

[Fax Celestis]

Also useful with this plan is Leap Attack, if you can fast-talk your DM into letting you do that on a mount. Adding triple the Power Attack penalty into your base damage gives some pretty ludicrous returns on investment.

Also possibly relevant:

Fly
A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load. (Note that medium armor does not necessarily constitute a medium load.) All fly speeds include a parenthetical note indicating maneuverability, as follows:

Perfect: The creature can perform almost any aerial maneuver it wishes. It moves through the air as well as a human moves over smooth ground.
Good: The creature is very agile in the air (like a housefly or a hummingbird), but cannot change direction as readily as those with perfect maneuverability.
Average: The creature can fly as adroitly as a small bird.
Poor: The creature flies as well as a very large bird.
Clumsy: The creature can barely maneuver at all.
A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage. A creature can use the run action while flying, provided it flies in a straight line.

[Rougy]

Also useful with this plan is Leap Attack, if you can fast-talk your DM into letting you do that on a mount. Adding triple the Power Attack penalty into your base damage gives some pretty ludicrous returns on investment.

That would be nice, I will talk with my DM and lets see what he says.

[eggynack]

They're not weird at all, they just modify the base value rather than the multiplied value. It keeps things in checks. :smalltongue:
Sure. Sure. It's weird to talk about though. Telling someone that 2*2=3 is a sure path to getting them to not believe you. It makes sense from our purview, but it's not an intuitive result.

[Vaz]

Easiest way is to picture it as +100% damage (i.e x2 = +100%, x3 = +200%, x4 = +300%).

So, you have 100% (Base)+300%+200%+100% in this case, for +600% damage (resulting in a x7 Multiplier).

[Nerd-o-rama]

Also possibly relevant:

My groups have always ruled that dive attacks replace charges/are the same thing and therefore you can't get dive and charge bonuses at the same time. Also, strictly by the book you can't make a diving attack with a lance, or anything besides a claw or a talon. Sorry Kain, try taking some Warblade levels instead.

[Talderas]

Relevant sections of rules.


Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.

--

If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you received the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance.


When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance).


When your character scores a critical hit, roll the damage two, three, or four times, as indicated by its critical multiplier, and add all the results together.


The first charge attack you make before the end of the round deals double damage on a successful hit.


In addition, if you have the Spirited Charge feat, any charge attacks you make while mounted and wielding a lance deal x4 damage on a critical hit (instead of the normal x3).

Riding boots is actually a bit ambiguous here and you're going to have to ask for DM on which interpretation is valid.

#1 - Rhino's Rush does not work with mounted combat. Your mount makes the charge and you make the attack. Since you are not making the charge you do not get the benefit of Rhino's Rush.
#2 - Critical damage is different from the damage multiplier from using a lance or spirited charge. You do not roll your damage dice multiple times like you do with critical hits. You simply double damage.
#3 - Riding boots is somewhat ambiguous on whether it is modifier the critical damage modifier of x3 or the damage multiplier from spirited charge of x3. I'm pretty sure this modifiers the spirited charge from x3 to x4.

So here's what happens. Mounted Lance with spirited charge (x3) and critical hit (x3). If you score a critical hit with a lance on horseback while using spirited charge, here's what happens. You roll your damage dice three times (the critical hit). You then multiply that value by x3 from spirited charge. The minimum and maximum of the range doesn't really change, IIRC, but you have a larger number of results than multiplying a single damage roll by 6. Add another roll of the damage dice or multiply by x4 after the damage roll to account for Riding Boots depending on your DM's ruling.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Riding boots is actually a bit ambiguous here and you're going to have to ask for DM on which interpretation is valid.

#1 - Rhino's Rush does not work with mounted combat. Your mount makes the charge and you make the attack. Since you are not making the charge you do not get the benefit of Rhino's Rush.
#2 - Critical damage is different from the damage multiplier from using a lance or spirited charge. You do not roll your damage dice multiple times like you do with critical hits. You simply double damage.
#3 - Riding boots is somewhat ambiguous on whether it is modifier the critical damage modifier of x3 or the damage multiplier from spirited charge of x3. I'm pretty sure this modifiers the spirited charge from x3 to x4.

So here's what happens. Mounted Lance with spirited charge (x3) and critical hit (x3). If you score a critical hit with a lance on horseback while using spirited charge, here's what happens. You roll your damage dice three times (the critical hit). You then multiply that value by x3 from spirited charge. The minimum and maximum of the range doesn't really change, IIRC, but you have a larger number of results than multiplying a single damage roll by 6. Add another roll of the damage dice or multiply by x4 after the damage roll to account for Riding Boots depending on your DM's ruling.

#1 - bull. The section on mounted charging specifically says that "If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you received the bonus gained from the charge". To me that says you're making a "charge attack", even though it's your mount doing the moving.

#2 - I completely forgot there was a difference between multiplying damage rolled and multiplying the final result, mostly because every group I've ever been in does one or the other. While I admit that if this is true the normal doubling rules are impossible to apply, that sounds like a bug rather than a feature. The general multiplying rule seems to be pretty specific in its intent for damage multipliers to be additive, unlike your interpretation which ends up with the equivalent of an x12 when it should be x7.

#3 - The text isn't ambiguous at all. If you meet the prerequisite of having the Spirited Charge feat, your critical multiplier with a lance on a mounted charge goes from x3 to x4.

[Talderas]

#1 - bull. The section on mounted charging specifically says that "If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you received the bonus gained from the charge". To me that says you're making a "charge attack", even though it's your mount doing the moving.

It's not bull. You are not making the charge attack. Your mount is. The rules simply grant you the benefit and drawback of charging when your mount does. Since Rhino's Rush requires you to make the charge it doesn't trigger.


#2 - I completely forgot there was a difference between multiplying damage rolled and multiplying the final result, mostly because every group I've ever been in does one or the other. While I admit that if this is true the normal doubling rules are impossible to apply, that sounds like a bug rather than a feature. The general multiplying rule seems to be pretty specific in its intent for damage multipliers to be additive, unlike your interpretation which ends up with the equivalent of an x12 when it should be x7.

I mathed wrong. Yeah, it's much more potent than one might think. The "it should be x7" though is a bit of a fallacy. That's only works under the assumption that there is one damage dice roll.


#3 - The text isn't ambiguous at all. If you meet the prerequisite of having the Spirited Charge feat, your critical multiplier with a lance on a mounted charge goes from x3 to x4.

It's apparently ambiguous because I believe it modifies the static x4 rather than damage dice rolled simply because the increased damage from using a lance on horseback is the static and the abilities is tied in with spirited charge (which is the static effect as well). Considering that I am quite certain of my interpretation while positing your interpretation could be made, I'm pretty sure that fits the definition of ambiguous. If the item wasn't tied to Spirited Charge and using a lance, then which multiplier it affects would be simple to determine. However since both multipliers are x3 it's not simple.

[Nerd-o-rama]

It's not bull. You are not making the charge attack. Your mount is. The rules simply grant you the benefit and drawback of charging when your mount does. Since Rhino's Rush requires you to make the charge it doesn't trigger.
So, what kind of attack are you making, exactly, if not a charge attack?




I mathed wrong. Yeah, it's much more potent than one might think. The "it should be x7" though is a bit of a fallacy. That's only works under the assumption that there is one damage dice roll.
I was apparently arguing from a houserule here, but as it's a houserule that preserves the intent of the multiplication rules I'm going to concede this to you and continue arguing for it in my home games.





It's apparently ambiguous because I believe it modifies the static x4 rather than damage dice rolled simply because the increased damage from using a lance on horseback is the static and the abilities is tied in with spirited charge (which is the static effect as well). Considering that I am quite certain of my interpretation while positing your interpretation could be made, I'm pretty sure that fits the definition of ambiguous. If the item wasn't tied to Spirited Charge and using a lance, then which multiplier it affects would be simple to determine. However since both multipliers are x3 it's not simple.

I just don't understand how "deal x4 damage on a critical hit (instead of the normal x3)" could refer to anything else but the critical multiplier, because why else would it specify "on a critical hit" and use the same phrasing as every other critical-multiplier-related ability? Of course, this only matters in theoretical-land to me thanks to point 2.

[Talderas]

So, what kind of attack are you making, exactly, if not a charge attack?

It's a normal attack that gains the benefit of the charge. That's exactly what the rules create. Remember that your mount is also permitted to make an attack in the charge as well. Let's break down the actions done in the a charge.

Your mount charges. This consumes your mounts full attack action (remember that a mount may also attack during a charge). You use your mounts movement so your move action is being consumed by the mount's movement. That leaves you with a standard action.





I was apparently arguing from a houserule here, but as it's a houserule that preserves the intent of the multiplication rules I'm going to concede this to you and continue arguing for it in my home games.

Well, the intent of the multiplication rules is that when multiple multipliers affect that same abstract concept they are stacked additively. The problem with critical hits and charging is that the multipliers are affecting two separate abstract concepts. The critical hit multiplier is affecting your damage roll [action]. The lance's bonus damage is multiplying the damage rolled [result]. Two separate abstracts.


I just don't understand how "deal x4 damage on a critical hit (instead of the normal x3)" could refer to anything else but the critical multiplier, because why else would it specify "on a critical hit" and use the same phrasing as every other critical-multiplier-related ability? Of course, this only matters in theoretical-land to me thanks to point 2.

The ability has three criteria which must be met for it to take effect.
1. You must be using the spirited charge feat.
2. You must be using a lance.
3. You must score a critical hit.

In that scenario your critical modifier is x3 and your damage bonus from charging is x3.

Of these three criteria #1 and #2 are tied to the static damage modifier while #3 is tied to the critical modifier. It's either the static modifier is increased in the event of a critical hit or the critical modifier is increased when charging under spirited charge and using a lance. Since the static damage multiplier is providing the larger amount of constraints I consider the Riding Boots to apply to that value rather than the critical modifier.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Of these three criteria #1 and #2 are tied to the static damage modifier while #3 is tied to the critical modifier. It's either the static modifier is increased in the event of a critical hit or the critical modifier is increased when charging under spirited charge and using a lance. Since the static damage multiplier is providing the larger amount of constraints I consider the Riding Boots to apply to that value rather than the critical modifier.

But #2 is a constraint for both, since a lance's normal x3 critical multiplier also comes from virtue of being a lance.

[Talderas]

But #2 is a constraint for both, since a lance's normal x3 critical multiplier also comes from virtue of being a lance.

Only if you look at it from the result given by the function.

--

I'd like to make a slight alteration to my stance about the critical hit and damage from the lance. It really depends on the value passed to the damage doubling for the lance. If what is passed to that is the result of the damage roll (3d8) then you get 13*3=39. If it's the damage roll itself is passed to the doubling then you get 6d8=27. I'm not aware of any rules that would suggest that your make the damage roll multiply times when using a lance from horseback. If that is the case then it's x6 (x7 with riding boots) rather than 3d8 * 3.

[Segev]

If it is an attack "that gets the benefit of a charge," and Rhino's Rush triggers when "you make a charge attack," Rhino's Rush is then part of the "benefit of a charge," and thus applies to any attack that gets said benefits.