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View Full Version : The Battlemaster Project: 3.P (Need input!!!)



Jormengand
2013-08-13, 01:20 PM
Hello, and welcome to this week's Fighter fix... well, not quite. What I have made is a class which doesn't use Maneuvers (though I suppose it technically could use some), and shouldn't come out sucking too hard. Instead, each weapon, shield, and "Style" (such as "Ranged" or "Weapon and Shield") has its own set of "Masteries" which allow the Battlemaster to use a potentially massive selection of abilities which could easily require the Big Bad to get inventive in a hurry.

Depending on the superfluity of what you allow an (Ex) ability to do, this could easily reach as high as Tier 2, because when you add up all the weapons and multiply it by 4, that's a LOT of abilities the Battlemaster can pull that the player probably doesn't even know he can do, let alone the poor monsters.

There is only one problem! Well, apart from the fact that no-one's actually checked it yet, but there is only one other problem (that I can think of!)! If you multiply the number of weapons by four, add three times the number of shields and stick on a few more for Styles, that's more than I'm ever going to write. So, Playground, your homebrewer needs YOU:

To suggest balance/flavour/etc. improvements.
To write most of the Masteries for me.


The Battlemaster
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d12

Class Skills:
Class Skills
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) × 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+1|+2|+2|+2|1st Weapon Mastery

2nd|+2|+3|+3|+3|Bravery

3rd|+3|+3|+3|+3|Might of Terra

4th|+4|+4|+4|+4|1st Shield Mastery

5th|+5|+4|+4|+4|Chain 2 Masteries, 1st Style Mastery

6th|+6/+1|+5|+5|+5|Bravery

7th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+5|2nd Weapon Mastery

8th|+8/+3|+6|+6|+6|Speed of Aer, Chain 3 Masteries

9th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+6|Power of Ignis

10th|+10/+5|+7|+7|+7|Bravery, 2nd Style Mastery

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+7|+7|Surge of Aqua, Chain 4 Masteries

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+8|+8|2nd Shield Mastery

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+8|+8|3rd Weapon Mastery

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+9|+9|Bravery, Chain 5 Masteries

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+9|+9|3rd Style Mastery

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+10|+10|Coldness of Umbra

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+10|+10|Chain 6 Masteries

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+11|+11|Clarity of Lux, Bravery

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+11|+11|4th Weapon Mastery

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+12|+12|Judgement of Aetheris, Chain 7 Masteries, 4th Style Mastery, 3rd Shield Mastery[/table]
Class features:
The following are class features of the Battlemaster:

Weapon and Armour Proficiency: The Battlemaster is proficient with all Simple and Martial weapons, as well as all listed Exotic weapons (thus, all that can ever be obtained barring exceptional circumstances) and all siege engines. He is similarly proficient in all armour and shields, including tower shields.

Masteries (Ex): At First level, and every Sixth level thereafter, the fighter may use a new Mastery for his equipped weapon or weapons, or for unarmed strike if he has a hand free. At Fourth level, and every Eighth level thereafter, he may use a new Mastery for his equipped shield if he has one. At Fifth level, and every Fifth level thereafter, he may use a new Mastery for the Style he is using - his Style is determined by what type of weapon he is wielding; this is specified clearly in the Style Mastery description.

He need never choose a specific Mastery Set to advance in for any of these categories, he always knows all Masteries available to a Battlemaster of his level (meaning that a first level Battlemaster therefore knows the first level Masteries of all weapons), but they only function so long as he is wielding the correct weapon, shield or Style.

Alternatively, he may attempt to use a sufficiently close equivalent to the required weapon, shield or Style (This may be specific to the mastery, not just the weapon - one cannot flail a torch around your head in quite the manner that one would a Battle Poi, but it seems reasonable that it would show equal utility in setting things alight). If he does this, he suffers a -4 improvisation penalty on the attack roll (if there is one), which also stacks with the normal penalty if the weapon really is improvised! As such, it is not uncommon for a Battlemaster to carry a small armoury of weapons and shields with him!

Most importantly, however, it should be noted that due to the amount of skill and perfect timing required to pull a Mastery off in combat in the first place, there is a limit to the number of Masteries you can use in one turn. Until the Battlemaster gains Chain Masteries, you may only use one, but you regain the ability to do so after the beginning or the end of your turn. For the purposes of these limits, readied Masteries are counted as taking place when you ready them, not when the Mastery actually takes effect.

Bravery (Ex): Starting at Second level, a Battlemaster gains a +1 bonus on Will saves against fear. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd.

Also, if he is still affected by a fear effect at the beginning of his turn, he may attempt a new will save. Success removes the effect, failure does nothing.

Might of Terra (Ex): At Third level, the Battlemaster has managed to survive being at the centre of the fight, and his body becomes accustomed to it by becoming as tough as the world itself. Due to this, he gains a permanent +4 bonus to his Constitution score, exactly as though he had gained it from a template or through leveling up.

Chain Masteries (Ex): At Fifth level, and every Third level thereafter, the per-round limit on Masteries is increased by one, allowing the Battlemaster to combine multiple Masteries as a single Attack, over multiple Attacks of a Full-Round Attack Action, or potentially as two effects which both affect him or an ally at once. If he so desires, he may use the same Mastery multiple times. In any case, Masteries stack unless there is a specific reason for them not to.

Speed of Aer (Ex): At Eighth level, the Battlemaster has refined his skill at performing the most graceful of dodges, or else firing volleys at the foe from afar, with arrows or his own body flying about the battlefield as swift as the wind. Either way, he gains a permanent +4 bonus to his Dexterity score, exactly as though he had gained it from a template or through leveling up.

Power of Ignis (Ex): At Ninth level, the Battlemaster learns to make crushing attacks which only the fury of flame can match. As such, he gains a permanent +4 bonus to his Strength score, exactly as though he had gained it from a template or through leveling up.

Surge of Aqua (Ex): At Eleventh level, the Battlemaster has been forced to make quick decisions in battle, and the answer often comes as clearly as a crashing tide of water. In essence, he gains a permanent +4 bonus to his Intelligence score, exactly as though he had gained it from a template or through leveling up.

Coldness of Umbra (Ex): At Sixteenth level, the Battlemaster has seen many battles, and truly realises the bleak darkness of war. Through this, he gains a permanent +4 bonus to his Wisdom score, exactly as though he had gained it from a template or through leveling up.

Clarity of Lux (Ex): At Eighteenth level, the Battlemaster is able to inspire people, as the light of battle, or hinder them, as the blinding light. However he intends to use it, he gains a permanent +4 bonus to his Charisma score, exactly as though he had gained it from a template or through leveling up.

Judgement of Aetheris (Ex): At Twentieth Level, the Battlemaster can use all seven of his Masteries for a round in order to use one of the Aethereal Masteries instead. If hecan, for any reason, chain more than seven Masteries, he can apply the others as normal. The Aethereal Masteries, despite their name, have nothing to do with the Ethereal Plane.

CHANGE LOG:
Changed Mastery limit text, and Chain Mastery text accordingly, to make it less cumbersome.
Clarified Judgement of Aetheris' text on being able to chain eight or more Masteries.
Changed Bravery to do something interesting.

Jormengand
2013-08-13, 01:22 PM
Reserved for weapon masteries

Jormengand
2013-08-13, 01:25 PM
Shield Masteries:

Heavy Steel Shield
Requires: Normal
Special: None
Weapon Lock: From fourth level, the Battlemaster may attempt to make a Weapon Lock with your shield as an Immediate Action when you are Attacked, including a full attack or a charge. Take a disarm check using the shield to disarm - this does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If you fail, the attack proceeds as normal, but if you pass, you block the attack. You do not actually disarm the opponent, however.

Shield Surf: As a full-round action, a Battlemaster of at least twelfth level may Shield Surf. When he does so, he drops his shield (so he does not get the AC bonus and cannot use it for other Masteries) and uses it to slide forwards up to 30 feet. He may also make a Full Attack Action in the process, making each attack at any point he chooses during the movement. He then flips the shield back into his hand in an overly flashy manner.

Shove: At twentieth level, a Battlemaster may use Shove to replace one of his attacks in an Attack, Charge, or Full Attack action with a shield bash which, if it hits, pushes the opponent back 5 feet.

Stunning bash: A Battlemaster of Twentieth level may spend 7 Masteries and a Swift Action to shield bash an opponent, and if the attack hits, the target must take a Fortutude save (DC10+Damage Dealt) or fall unconscious for 3d4 rounds.

Jormengand
2013-08-13, 01:26 PM
Style Masteries:

Weapon and Shield
Requires: You must have a weapon in one hand and a shield in the other.
Special: Unarmed strike and natural attacks can’t be used to qualify. A Scizore can’t be used as the shield.

Co-ordinated striking: From Fifth level, a Battlemaster may use Co-ordinated Striking on any Attack, including as part of a Charge or Full Attack action. If he hits, he doubles his Shield bonus to AC against opponents who are hit by his attacks only.

Relentless Fighter: From Tenth level, the Battlemaster may choose to use Relentless Fighter in an Attack or Full Attack action. Whenever he hits an opponent with his weapon during that action, he may immediately shield bash them with no penalties.

Deflect Attack: From Fifteenth level, when an attack is made on him requiring an attack roll (except a touch attack), the Battlemaster may attempt to Deflect the Attack with his shield by making his own attack roll with his shield against the roll made to hit him. If he hits, he deflects the attack and any ammunition and spell slots are wasted. If he critically hits the attack, he may instead direct it back at the attacker or another of his foes. If he wishes to do so, then he makes yet another attack roll, with the weapon or ray used to attack him in the first place, against anyone in range of the attack.

Conceal: At twentieth level, the Battlemaster can use Conceal to grant himself or an ally within 5 feet total concealment. They can still be seen, however.

Rallying Cry: At Twentieth level, by spending seven Masteries, as a Full-round action the Battlemaster raises his shield up high and charges forth. Every ally within 100 feet who wishes to do so may also Charge, or make a single Attack from where they are. The Battlemaster makes his attacks as a Full Attack Action when he reaches his target, others who are charging do not. All allies in range of Rallying Cry gain a +2 morale bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls and to their AC until the start of the Battlemaster’s next turn.

Jormengand
2013-08-13, 01:27 PM
Reserved for anything cool that might conceivably need its own post.

Okay, go ahead and post!

AttilaTheGeek
2013-08-14, 01:04 AM
I'd like to help, but:

Are you open to critiques on the class itself? It seems excessively strong, especially in low-op games. In a world where "The monk isn't bad because it has three good saves" is actually true, this would blow it out of the water. Why +4 CON at third level? It seems arbitrary and excessively powerful. Finally, the table shows Bravery at both 2nd and 6th level, even though the text only says second.

Also, can you write some more masteries or give a format so that we know what they should look like? For example, can masteries have prerequisites, either of other masteries or level-based?

What made you choose four masteries per weapon and three per shield?

Finally, how can a first-level battlemaster know this arbitrarily large number of masteries? I would strongly suggest limiting the number that scales with level squared, and possibly intelligence. You might want to consider letting a battlemaster learn masteries equal to (3+INT mod)*level, (INT mod+ 1/4*level)*level, INT score+1/4*level^2, or 1/2*INT mod*level*level.

Jormengand
2013-08-14, 07:38 AM
I'd like to help, but:

Are you open to critiques on the class itself? It seems excessively strong, especially in low-op games. In a world where "The monk isn't bad because it has three good saves" is actually true, this would blow it out of the water. Why +4 CON at third level? It seems arbitrary and excessively powerful. Finally, the table shows Bravery at both 2nd and 6th level, even though the text only says second.

Also, can you write some more masteries or give a format so that we know what they should look like? For example, can masteries have prerequisites, either of other masteries or level-based?

What made you choose four masteries per weapon and three per shield?

Finally, how can a first-level battlemaster know this arbitrarily large number of masteries? I would strongly suggest limiting the number that scales with level squared, and possibly intelligence. You might want to consider letting a battlemaster learn masteries equal to (3+INT mod)*level, (INT mod+ 1/4*level)*level, INT score+1/4*level^2, or 1/2*INT mod*level*level.

In a world where no-one uses monk because you could be an unarmed swordsage (or why are you not a wizard?) this is slightly less excessively strong. Also, the table shows bravery at every fourth level after second because it increases at every fourth level after second, as per text.

The masteries should be listed as:

Name (usually weapon or shield name):
Requirements: What does this require? Normally, it will just say "Weapon only" or "Shield only," for style it will say something like "You must be wielding in one hand and [blah] in the other" or "You must have at least one weapon with the [blah] property" etc.
[B]Special: Do you get anything purely for meeting the requirements? For example, an unarmed strike mastery set might give Improved Unarmed Strike as a temporary bonus feat if you meet the set prerequisites.
Mastery one: From [first] level, the Battlemaster may...
Mastery two: From [seventh] level, the Battlemaster may...
Mastery three: From [thirteenth] level, the Battlemaster may...
Mastery four (if existent): From [nineteenth] level, the Battlemaster may...
Best Mastery: From twentieth level, by spending seven Masteries, the Battlemaster may... Masteries won't require other Masteries because you don't learn any other Masteries, they just have requirements to use. The level requirements are given for each one. They could easily have requirements that make sense (your fire poi must be lit to burn things with it) but not arbitrary ability score requirements.

In combat, there are usually more awesome things you can do with your weapon than with your shield.

Let's go through these. If you have 14 INT then they will give you 5, 2, 2, and 1 Mastery/ies at first level, and 100, 140, 102, and 400 Masteries at 20th level. Especially with the last one, you're going from "You have no diversity" to "Yes, you do actually have to keep track of this." They're meant to represent the Battlemaster's abilities and training, not having book-learned how to swing a sword.

Yakk
2013-08-14, 08:02 AM
Bravery (Ex)
As a feature, barely worth mentioning -- small bonus (per instance) to a relatively rare keyword attacking one defence. Too many words, too many slots on your advancement table. Needs more bang for buck.

You can jazz this up in a few ways. Double-rolls to save. Automatic save at start of turn to shrug the effect off. Inspiring allies so they gain either of the two above advantages.


Might of Terra (Ex)
Overly random. I know you get +4 to each attribute, but it still seems pretty random. Lots of flowery text,

Masteries (Ex)
Badly worded. I mean, why does one kind refresh at the start, and the other at the end, of your turn? No reason at all, and it just makes the text more cumbersome.

In addition, for the most part the number of options a given character has in a situation are bounded, with the exception of wizards who memorize polymorph spells and wish spells. Even clerics: they have to burn time to prepare "any cleric spell".


Judgement of Aetheris (Ex) "Gains more than seven masteries"?!

Jormengand
2013-08-14, 11:31 AM
As a feature, barely worth mentioning -- small bonus (per instance) to a relatively rare keyword attacking one defence. Too many words, too many slots on your advancement table. Needs more bang for buck.

I literally copied this over from Pathfinder's Fighter, only it says "Battlemaster" and not "Fighter". It's so I don't have loadsa dead levels everywhere, not because it would actually be useful.

You can jazz this up in a few ways. Double-rolls to save. Automatic save at start of turn to shrug the effect off. Inspiring allies so they gain either of the two above advantages.

I could add one of those.

Overly random. I know you get +4 to each attribute, but it still seems pretty random. Lots of flowery text,

It has flavour text and looks random. Okay, good to know I guess?

Badly worded. I mean, why does one kind refresh at the start, and the other at the end, of your turn? No reason at all, and it just makes the text more cumbersome.

The idea was that the one which you use on your turn refreshes at the start of your turn, and the one you use on your not-turn refreshed at the start of your not-turn, but I might change the text to be that you don't have separate sets to used on and off your turn at all.

In addition, for the most part the number of options a given character has in a situation are bounded, with the exception of wizards who memorize polymorph spells and wish spells. Even clerics: they have to burn time to prepare "any cleric spell".

I'm sorry, but I can cast Hold Person, or Wall of Iron, or Fireball, or... you get the idea. There is a limit to the number of options he has, it's just it's a very big limit.

"Gains more than seven masteries"?!

I was thinking of adding extra feats to be able to chain an additional mastery, possibly with some cost.

Some good points, but...

Yakk
2013-08-14, 03:15 PM
Copying a feature from another class that isn't very good doesn't justify the copy.


It has flavour text and looks random. Okay, good to know I guess?Reasons why it should be discarded.

I mean, adding +1 to all attributes at level 5/10/15/20 would be less random, and wouldn't require your flavor text. Or adding +2 at level 10/20.

I'm sorry, but I can cast Hold Person, or Wall of Iron, or Fireball, or... you get the idea. There is a limit to the number of options he has, it's just it's a very big limit.
With few exceptions, character's options in the short term can be described by a character sheet. At worst a set of memorized spells. This is what I mean by "bounded options".

In your case, your options are limited by the entire rules text of your class, and any new rules text added (new abilities).

This makes different Battlemasters less distinct, increases decision paralysis, makes the character's versatility dependent on how much extra homebrew is done to add more abilities, and reduces strategic preparation.

It also mimics some of the worst design problems in 3e, such as many polymorph type abilities, and cleric spell preparation.


The idea was that the one which you use on your turn refreshes at the start of your turn, and the one you use on your not-turn refreshed at the start of your not-turn, but I might change the text to be that you don't have separate sets to used on and off your turn at all.
As a concrete example, if both abilities refreshed at the start of your turn, the game would play exactly the same, would it not? Or is there an exploit involving delayed actions you are worried about?

The two times is overly complex and pointless as far as I can tell.

If you are going to have one pool in which both are refreshed, make the refresh at the end of your turn: that way, don't have to preemptively hold back uses to defend yourself: Instead, defending comes at the cost of loss of offence on your next turn.

Jormengand
2013-08-14, 04:42 PM
Copying a feature from another class that isn't very good doesn't justify the copy.

Reasons why it should be discarded.

I mean, adding +1 to all attributes at level 5/10/15/20 would be less random, and wouldn't require your flavor text. Or adding +2 at level 10/20.

With few exceptions, character's options in the short term can be described by a character sheet. At worst a set of memorized spells. This is what I mean by "bounded options".

In your case, your options are limited by the entire rules text of your class, and any new rules text added (new abilities).

This makes different Battlemasters less distinct, increases decision paralysis, makes the character's versatility dependent on how much extra homebrew is done to add more abilities, and reduces strategic preparation.

It also mimics some of the worst design problems in 3e, such as many polymorph type abilities, and cleric spell preparation.


As a concrete example, if both abilities refreshed at the start of your turn, the game would play exactly the same, would it not? Or is there an exploit involving delayed actions you are worried about?

The two times is overly complex and pointless as far as I can tell.

If you are going to have one pool in which both are refreshed, make the refresh at the end of your turn: that way, don't have to preemptively hold back uses to defend yourself: Instead, defending comes at the cost of loss of offence on your next turn.

I suppose I could add something else to it.

Quite a lot of CFs, spells, feats etc. have flavour text and Wizards/Paizo didn't remove them. Also, how is it "Random?"

The Battlemaster's abilities are also limited by their character sheet - you just have to drift over to the "Equipment" and "Other items" sections rather than "Spells." No extra homebrew should increase his options if he doesn't have the right weapon to do it with.

The refresh time is now effectively "It's one thing. It comes back at the beginning and end of your turn," because that was pretty much what it did anyway.