Coping with wizards - the ummpteenth post: magic item creation and time management?

[Harlot]

Hello all of you bright experts out there - yet another question regarding the wizard in my game ... (yes, yes, it has become a battle of wits - we're both still having fun though:smallamused:)

The question:
The DMG states p. 283 that when creating any magic item, the caster may work on it for a max of 8 hours/day and may do with the rest of his time as he pleases.

The wizard entry at the PHB p. 178 states that to prepare spells [for him to write down] the wizard must rest - no movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation etc - for 8 hours straight.

Now, the infamous wizard in my group interprets this to mean that on a typical day he would:

Travel (or do whatever) for 8 hours - meditate/rest for 8 hours - use 8 hours to make 1 scroll containing almost all of his spells (he's level 6) ... aaaaaand repeat. - Thus effectively doubling the amount of spells available to him, every 24 hours.

As I read the rules, interrupting his sleep/rest with attacks etc will only delay this proces, but not prevent it - it just adds one extra hour of rest before he can make that scroll ...

So, apart from making him chase down exotic spell components, do any of you have any obvious ideas as to how to stop this continuous scrollmaking?

And can anyone tell me if there is a physical limit to the lenght of a scroll/piece of parchment, thus limiting in yet another way the number of spells it may contain? I think I've read somewhere - but can't find it - that one spell equals one foot of parchment - so if one piece of parchment/one scroll was limited to, say, five feet, then it could only contain five spells, regardless of gold and XP spent. Have anyone heard of this or am I making it up?

Thank you in advance for your help.
/Harlot

[Segev]

You can also interrupt him in the middle of scroll-making, but honestly, that's playing somewhat as intended. Scribing scrolls is costly in exp and gp if you do it extensively, and scrolls use DCs as if a caster of the minimum stat to scribe them made them, not the PC's own stat.

[Asrrin]

He is sacrificing valuable XP that brings him down compared to his team mates, they will all level before him and he postpones gaining access to higher level spells. It really evens out.

[Harlot]

Oh, sorry, the real problem is that he makes himself a stash of Summon Monster scrolls and uses that in every f'ing battle, and it gets tedious.
Slowing down the scrollmaking would maybe force him to change tactics - if he is out of SM III, then what will he do??

It's not even that I can't cope with the SM III summoning either, because counterspelling and area spells take care of that, its just ... we're at our 17th session in this campaign and summoning monsters is all he EVER does ... boring, boring, boring.

I hope that stopping the flood of scrolls may force him to do something else for a change.

I do know that he is behind the group XP wise and that spells from scrolls are not as effective as spells cast directly, but that is not the real issue.

Again, thanks for helping me out
/Harlot

[Segev]

This sounds honestly like an OOC issue. Have you tried discussing this with him? If it's boring for you, that's bad. You may want to see if it's boring the other players or not. In any event, you should talk to him; clearly, he WANTS to summon monsters. I assume he enjoys it. Why is it so tedious? By now, if he does it so often, he really should know what his monsters can do and be through it quickly.

If it's sheer numbers, perhaps assign different summons to different players so they get to participate more?

If it's something else...well, again, talk to the player. If he doesn't want to change tactics, then you need to figure out why. Players don't like having their favored tactics thwarted just to thwart them, and trying to handle it in a round-about fashion will only engender discontent and cause him to look for ways around your restrictions to do what he wants to do and you're trying to prevent.

[Harlot]

@Segev:
True - if he as a powerful wizard wants to summon monsters and nothing else, who am I to stop him?
You are right, I guess - if I am the only one being bored, maybe that is ok. I am there to facilitate his fun, and the other players don't mind the constant summoning.

I'll give the idea, that maybe I am the problem, some serious thought ...

I'd still like to know if there's a way to stop the scrollmaking loop, though?

And if anyone knows about the whole scroll length question ...?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I don't know about the scroll length thing, but I doubt it would help any. If he's limited to X spells/scroll, he'll still scribe as many spells as he did before-- crafting time is based on cost-- just on different pieces of paper. One Handy Haversack and you'll never notice the difference.

Are you tracking the cost of the scrolls in gold and xp? Try pointing out how much he's spend in total, see if that makes him feel like he's falling behind.

[Segev]

1) You are also a player in the game. If YOU are not having fun, you need to figure out how to fix that. Not at the expense of the other players' fun, which compounds the puzzle, but it is still something to do.

I recommend talking to this player about it and seeing if he has any suggestions. Why does it bore you? Maybe there's something you can do to let him have his fun while you improve your own.


2) This isn't a "scroll-making loop." This is a choice in how he invests his time and resources. There is no limit to how many spells can be on a scroll, because technically each individual spell is its own "scroll," even if on one long sheet of parchment. When he crafts multiple spells into scrolls each night, he's taking advantage of the fact that he doesn't actually need 8 hours to make one scroll. Look carefully at the "creating scrolls" rules...or...hrm. I just looked, myself. I could have sworn there was a rule about items worth less than 1000 gp taking shorter periods of time. But all I'm finding right now is that it takes "one day" to scribe a scroll for each 1000 gp in its base price.

If that is binding, then he can make one scroll/day, period. At most. Fewer, for those worth more than 1000 gp.

[Harlot]

@Grod - yup, tracking gold and XP, at this point he is app. 5000 XP behind the group (he died at some point, losing a level) but he does not seem to mind at all. I think Segev could be right - that the PC really just wants to summon monsters and that's about it...

@Segev:
exactly - as I read and understand the rules on magic item creation (but I have been OH so wrong before) he may only make 1 scroll a day (DMG p. 238 = 'a character can work on only one magic item at a time') and the number of spells on that scroll is limited by the gold cost of the spells with a max of 1000 gp.

That is why I think the 'max parchment lenght' could matter - if it actually exists.

And, I may very well have to work on my attitude and not his game. Focus on the fun, channel my inner Dalai Lama, something like that.

And again, thanks for helping
/Harlot

[sleepyphoenixx]

The maximum amount of spells on a scroll that can be found on the random treasure table is 1d6.
If you're uncomfortable with the amount of spells he scribes limiting him to 6 per scroll is pretty reasonable imo.

[Lafaellar]

If he is scribing scrolls every day, doesn't he loose the spells he invested into the scrolls for the day? So this would only be useful if he has 2 days of preperations available. One day to memorise the spells and scribe the scroll and another day to rest again and refill his spell slots.
Otherwise he is just scribing scrolls and using them instead of casting the spells directly, which is not very clever as you have to pay money and xp to craft the scrolls while it costs you almost nothing to cast the spell (burn a candle, meh).

I think there are several ways to tackle this problem:

1. The brute force approach
Make creating scrolls really a pain for him.
Take away his stuff he needs to do it, steal it, let it get destroyed and whatever it takes.
This will probably result in him being unhappy and trying to use every way to create new scrolls he can pull off and will eventually result in a war between you and him, which is not very good for the game.

2. The ooc approach
Try to figure out why he does this.
Does he have fun summoning monsters or is he unaware of other tactics or is he upset because something that happened in the past?
Then you can look for a solution. You could make summoning monsters more interesting to you and him or solve the problem that may exist.

3. The Roleplay approach
If he is the only wizard in your group, let him encounter another wizard and use him as a device to try and influence him.
You will get to know what his RP reason behind making this is, although there are more advanced methods he could use.

4. The changing surroundings approach
Make it so, that there are problems he has to solve and he cannot solve it by summoning monsters so he has to use his spell slots for something else and may find something that is more rewarding to him.
Additionally this will break his loop as he has to use his spell slots for other spells instead of summoning stuff.

[Segev]

The procedure he seems to be following is "adventure 8 hours, scribe spells into scrolls 8 hours, rest 8 hours, memorize spells and adventure 8 hours, etc."

So he's basically scribing his unused spells into scrolls.

[Agincourt]

He also need an hour to memorize spells in the morning, so I assume he is only adventuring for 7 hours a day.

[animewatcha]

Here is a question. How much of wizardry ( spells, tricks, etc. ) does he know? If ALOT, then perhaps he may be playing himself down so as to not overshadow the party. I could be missing something here.

[Psyren]

Be sure he realizes that summoning from scrolls takes the same amount of time as summoning regularly, i.e. 1 round instead of 1 standard (per Rules Compendium.) Also, scrolls are spell completion items, meaning their use does provoke AoO (as opposed to say, wands.)

A few whacks in the noggin/arrows to the gut are a good way to warn him about the dangers of standing in one place chanting for 6 whole seconds during a fight.

[lsfreak]

Be sure he realizes that summoning from scrolls takes the same amount of time as summoning regularly, i.e. 1 round instead of 1 standard (per Rules Compendium.)

This is something a lot of people seem to screw up even without scrolls getting involved. It's not a standard action, and it's not a full-round action, but One Round: you start casting, your turn ends, everyone else takes their turn, and just before your turn starts again, the spell goes off.

[Asrrin]

I would maybe pull the player aside and ask if he'd like to retire the character and roll up a new one that focuses on summoning that will let him expand his summoning options. This would allow him to catch up to his peers, spend less time item crafting, and allow him to try new things while still being true to his main schtick.

[Agincourt]

I would maybe pull the player aside and ask if he'd like to retire the character and roll up a new one that focuses on summoning that will let him expand his summoning options. This would allow him to catch up to his peers, spend less time item crafting, and allow him to try new things while still being true to his main schtick.

The DM says he is bored with summoning. This suggestion sounds like it will exacerbate the problem. You will remove the XP penalty the PC has already incurred for summoning all the time, reboot him to the same level as the other characters, and do nothing to prevent him from scribing more scrolls to summon.

[Eldariel]

Have you considered doing something to just make summoning flow smoother? Have him carry full stats for all his commonly used summons as separate papers, and enforce some kind of a "decide actions before your turn"-rule. This way it shouldn't be that big of a time sink at least.

Honestly tho, if he wants to summon, his actions still have more variety than any core Warrior; at least he can summon many different creatures and they tend to have as many options each (or more) as a Warrior. I can't see that being an argument against this. If you solve the time issues, I don't really see the problem; most summons are fairly poor far as damage and control goes so they add a bit but not all that much to combat and he's using a huge amount of resources on this. And yeah, summon casting times are 1 full round and they only last 1 round/CL (so 5 rounds in this case) so first round he doesn't even do anything; the summon only enters play second round and starts beating stuff up.

[Sith_Happens]

At 6th level he already has basically enough spell slots to get him through a whole day's worth of encounters, so scribing scrolls of spells he's likely going to cast anyway isn't helping him nearly as much as either of you think it is.

[Psyren]

It seems to me the problem is the summoning itself rather than the scribing. The most likely cause being a misunderstanding on one or both sides as to how summoning from a scroll actually works.

[Humble Master]

I really don't see the problem with him scribing scrolls to increase the number of spells he has per day. It costs him xp and so in the long run he will end up falling behind the party. If you find the summoning annoying just talk with him and maybe ask him to keep track of his own summons.

[Occasional Sage]

Wrest control of his summoned creatures and turn them on him. See how fast he changes tactics.

[Fable Wright]

If push really comes to shove, add in Elder Evil's Seal of Binding as a lead-in to the plot. If he has to make a Spellcraft check each round to do anything, and potentially have to fight his own summons, it's very unlikely he'll continue with the minionmancy. It's a drastic measure, sure, but as long as you know about it, have an Elder Evil on hand, and see no other way to dissuade him, you have an out.

[Seclora]

http://dndtools.eu/spells/book-of-vile-darkness--37/distort-summons--241/

Drop this one on him; if he's evil, there's a good version too.

Shouldn't take him too long to at least figure out how to counter his own summons.


Also, my understanding is that any crafting takes at least 1 day per item, as a minimum. So he can make 1 scroll a day, if he works on it for 8 hours without interruption.
If he works at home, give him a cat, or an annoying roommate or someone who can interrupt him if he fails a concentration check or something.
If he does it in dungeons, try a percentile roll for a wandering monster.

[Psyren]

Also, my understanding is that any crafting takes at least 1 day per item, as a minimum. So he can make 1 scroll a day, if he works on it for 8 hours without interruption.

It sounds like he is making one scroll with a pile of spells on it. Though the cost should make that take longer than a day anyway I would imagine. Still, at level 6, he could feasibly do this with his lower level unused spells and only take up a couple of days per scroll.

[Cheiromancer]

You can't double your daily spells by making scrolls; you have to expend the spell when you make the scroll. I guess if you adventure every other day it would work.

I think the gold and xp he is down would make his tactics impractical. A scroll with 2 third level spells costs 375 gp to make (and 30 gp). His share of an encounter's wealth is about 450 gp*; he is barely keeping up.

But if he wants to pull it off, I'd say let him. Do try to streamline the process of summoning (and managing summons) so that he doesn't hog the limelight. I am not sure what he is doing that makes the situation boring, but maybe you could address that.

And otherwise - well, tell him there is a shortage of a component of one of the inks, and he can't make scrolls of summon monster any more.

*Assuming that the 6000 gp increase in WBL from 6th to 7th level is divided into 13.3 encounters.

[Starmage21]

I'm really failing to see a problem here. At low levels, the Summon Monster spells are great. They can solve combat for you often in better ways than dealing direct damage. It isnt the optimal way to do it (there is a list of "spells that rape" floating around...) if you want to end combat the fastest, but it really feels like your player is playing a Conjurer/Summoner the way a Conjurer/Summoner would be played. You should not be bored of summoned monsters any more than you should be bored of a wizard who chucks a fireball at the first sign of combat.
If I were the player of yours, I'd have rolled a specialist wizard and specialized in Conjuration and drop Divination+Necromancy. As the power of summoned monsters trails off, you'd see more Orb spells used.

[Reprimand]

I'm really failing to see a problem here. At low levels, the Summon Monster spells are great. They can solve combat for you often in better ways than dealing direct damage. It isnt the optimal way to do it (there is a list of "spells that rape" floating around...) if you want to end combat the fastest, but it really feels like your player is playing a Conjurer/Summoner the way a Conjurer/Summoner would be played. You should not be bored of summoned monsters any more than you should be bored of a wizard who chucks a fireball at the first sign of combat.
If I were the player of yours, I'd have rolled a specialist wizard and specialized in Conjuration and drop Divination+Necromancy. As the power of summoned monsters trails off, you'd see more Orb spells used.

But you can't really ban divination anyway... I see your point though.

[Zeb]

So let me confirm this:
8 hours resting
1 hour prepping spells
7 hours adventuring/traveling etc (some spells cast)
8 hours scribbling unused spells as scrolls (costing gp and exp) within the 1000 gp limit per day.
Repeat

Seems SOP for low level wizard. It doesn't really double his spells, just lets him save the uncast ones at the cost of gp and exp. Which costs you later if you keep using them or becomes less effective once you already have a few copies of all your spells.

As the game progresses either the cost on scribing will get to high or his low level spells wont be as effective so something will change.

[Starmage21]

But you can't really ban divination anyway... I see your point though.

I meant Illusion >_>

[Psyren]

Not only will the cost of scribing get expensive as he levels, it will also force him to take multiple days to do it (or else stick with very weak low-level summons that get nuked in one round.) When it takes him 2 days or more to make one scroll this strategy will fall apart.

But I reiterate that the primary annoyance here appears to be the summoning itself, which should be pretty easy to disrupt if he's getting too comfortable with that tactic. This is especially true since his options to cast more quickly from a scroll are very limited.

[Yuki Akuma]

Why would someone scribe scrolls of spells he casts every fight? Craft a wand for that sort of thing. Scrolls are for spells you don't use often and therefore aren't going to memorise, but sometimes come in useful.

[Starmage21]

Not only will the cost of scribing get expensive as he levels, it will also force him to take multiple days to do it (or else stick with very weak low-level summons that get nuked in one round.) When it takes him 2 days or more to make one scroll this strategy will fall apart.

But I reiterate that the primary annoyance here appears to be the summoning itself, which should be pretty easy to disrupt if he's getting too comfortable with that tactic. This is especially true since his options to cast more quickly from a scroll are very limited.

My advice: Stop being annoyed with it. He's doing it right. Just as right as casting magic missile/scorching ray/fireball

if you want to challenge his tactic and force him to think on his feet, use monsters with DR his summons will have trouble bypassing.

[Randomocity132]

Oh, sorry, the real problem is that he makes himself a stash of Summon Monster scrolls and uses that in every f'ing battle, and it gets tedious.


It's not unrealistic for enemy casters to have a magic circle that hedges out outsiders.


All creatures within the area gain the effects of a protection from evil spell, and no nongood summoned creatures can enter the area either.
Just use whichever alignment version of the spell works against him.

Or banishment/dismissal.

[Psyren]

My advice: Stop being annoyed with it. He's doing it right. Just as right as casting magic missile/scorching ray/fireball

if you want to challenge his tactic and force him to think on his feet, use monsters with DR his summons will have trouble bypassing.

I assume you're talking to the OP there and not me (I never expressed annoyance with summoning myself.)

Note however that magic missile/scorching ray/fireball don't bog down play to the degree that a raft of summons do. Quite the opposite, a good blast can actually speed things up.

[kkplx]

@Grod - yup, tracking gold and XP, at this point he is app. 5000 XP behind the group (he died at some point, losing a level) but he does not seem to mind at all. I think Segev could be right - that the PC really just wants to summon monsters and that's about it...

@Segev:
exactly - as I read and understand the rules on magic item creation (but I have been OH so wrong before) he may only make 1 scroll a day (DMG p. 238 = 'a character can work on only one magic item at a time') and the number of spells on that scroll is limited by the gold cost of the spells with a max of 1000 gp.

That is why I think the 'max parchment lenght' could matter - if it actually exists.

And, I may very well have to work on my attitude and not his game. Focus on the fun, channel my inner Dalai Lama, something like that.

And again, thanks for helping
/Harlot

How about you challenge him with situations that require his utility spells, and not bland monster summoning for meatshields? Bring in flying enemies, buffers that need to be dispelled, Hordes, etc - anything that gets him (and the group) thinking outside of the usual "5 enemies vs the 4man party, dungeon, some loot"-schema.

Now, about making scrolls, RAW you can only make one "magic item" a day, regardless of cost - that's obviously a retarded rule when it comes to scribing scrolls that can be as cheap as 12.5gp (cantrips) - the rule of common sense would be derived from page 238: Table 7-21. Let him roll a d3 every day he's scribing scrolls. He gets to scribe as many spells on that day as the dice result, all on the same scroll.

I'd argue that levels 1-5 would only have access to minor scrolls, 5-(10-12) medium scrolls, and anything beyond Major Scrolls.

And for christ's sake, if he wants to spam monsters, let him :P Even better, see if you can let him apply some template or new MM beasts to pepper things up.

[erikun]

Well, first note: Scrolls are 8½ inches wide and 11 inches long, with one extra foot for each additional spell. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm) Note that there isn't a difference in price between one scroll with ten spells and ten scrolls with one spell each, so limiting the size of their paper isn't going to do much.

Secondly, as has already been mentioned, the wizard needs to have the spell prepared before they can scribe it. This means prepared and unexpended. A wizard who has been adventuring for 7 hours and casts all their spells can't scribe any scrolls. If he scribes scrolls before adventuring, then he has no spells for the day.

Third, are you sure you're paying attention to the details of the spell? Summon Monster is a full round action, meaning he starts casting on his turn and finishes casting on his next turn. Also, scrolls are priced by default on the minimum caster level needed. That means those 375gp-priced Summon Monster III scrolls last 5 rounds, not 6. Summon Monster I on a scroll lasts 1 round. The character can choose to use a higher caster level when scribing the scroll, but doing so costs more money.

And finally, how is this a problem? A 6th level wizard with 18+ INT only has three 3rd-level spells per day. That's three SMIII the entire day, either used or scribed. They'd need to have 26+ INT to get a fourth spell per day, and somehow I doubt that. Shouldn't they be running into 4-5 encounters daily when they're out adventuring? I don't see how the wizard could ever have spell slots available to scribe anything, unless they're back home and not fighting every day.

[Phaederkiel]

Harlot, are you more concerned about his extra spells (which he obviously only gets if he has more than one day) or are you concerned about him always using summons?

(and are you looking at the caster lvl of his scrolls? if he makes them lvl 1, the summons are only there for one round...)


I think the best option is to throw a dice who of the players controls the summon. Thus it is more likely that everyone has something to do.

Perhaps you should show him the malconvoker. This makes summoning at least interesting.

[Psyren]

Shouldn't they be running into 4-5 encounters daily when they're out adventuring?

Honestly, few games I've been a part of can manage 4-5 encounters in a whole session, never mind one day. I think in those cases, houseruling fewer spells for the casters so they actually have to conserve some slots/PP is an appropriate response. Either that or bump up the difficulty a bit, though then you have to be careful of the lower-tier members of the group.



(and are you looking at the caster lvl of his scrolls? if he makes them lvl 1, the summons are only there for one round...)

You can't make a scroll with CL below the minimum to cast it, so only SMI scrolls would be able to have a CL of 1. Any other spell level would last longer than 1 round.

[Harlot]

Thank you, all of you, for comments and help.

So where to start?
We are following the rules regarding scroll making, so yes, he doesn't 'double his spell every 24 hours' because, as stated by Erikun and others here, once the spell is written, it's spent and he has to replenish his spells again so that he can use them/write them down. So rather I should have written something like "makes himself a stash of that days unspent spells/spellslots, focusing heavily on SM I-III."
It is exactly like this :


8 hours resting
1 hour prepping spells
7 hours adventuring/traveling etc (some spells cast)
8 hours scribbling unused spells as scrolls (costing gp and exp) within the 1000 gp limit per day.
Repeat
Sorry for being so vague.

The rules of spell delay (cast, wait one round - monsters pops forth) and caster level have been followed whenever I asked/checked up on him. And the player is fair, though not very familiar with all aspects of spellcasting. He would not cheat intentionally. (But has done so unintentionally in the past, specifically messing up the craft rules. Sigh.) One issue here may actually be that although he is an experinced player, he's never really been challenged by any former DM - he doesn't optimize. Which may explain why he doesn't just make himself a wand of SM XXX.

(The group is old, going back 10-15 years ... I am fairly new to it, and the group seems stalled in old ways of thinking: Only core books - hardly ever multiclassing - Monks are considered cool and TWF is the coolest feat EVER!:smalltongue:)

I must admit that it has been a real and probably mentally healthy wake-up call for me to realise that this may be a problem stemming from me - that, as Starmage and a few others have pointed out, the PC is really not doing anything wrong - he's just playing his wizard as a summoner, and making scrolls for that, and that is absolutely ok and fair.
I am mildly annoyed with myself, because I never saw it from that perspective: That my attitude is the real issue!

I have given it a lot of though since reading the first feedback, and have tried to figure out, why his constant summoning annoys me. I have narrowed it down to this:

1) the sheer lack of imagination. I really feel like yanking him out of his seat and beg him to PLEASE try something else for a change ...

2) combat is slower - not from the PC not knowing the stats or anything, just from the larger number of combatants.

3) Did I mention his lack of imagination? Its just ... wizards have SO much potential ... and he is happy summoning away all day, every day... and yes, I would probably be just as annoyed if he rolled up a fireball everytime the enemies approached. Same thing.

Now for solutions:
I understand from quite a few of your comments that I ought not view the wizard amassing scrolls as a problem; - that the caster level is lower anyways, that the gap in XP and eventually levels will soon be felt by the PC and that making scrolls/having scrolls is pretty much what you'd expect a wizard to do. So I'll try to develop a healthier attitude towards it. I must admit that I like to push the party to points where they're low on both HP and spells (I am evil like that) and the latter is harder when the wizard has a big stash of scrolls...

On the summon monster spell itself, I know it may not be the better approach, but I will try to go with this:

4. The changing surroundings approach
Make it so, that there are problems he has to solve and he cannot solve it by summoning monsters so he has to use his spell slots for something else and may find something that is more rewarding to him.
Additionally this will break his loop as he has to use his spell slots for other spells instead of summoning stuff.
and this, which is the same point

How about you challenge him with situations that require his utility spells, and not bland monster summoning for meatshields? Bring in flying enemies, buffers that need to be dispelled, Hordes, etc - anything that gets him (and the group) thinking outside of the usual "5 enemies vs the 4man party, dungeon, some loot"-schema.
This I will do. Flying enemies are fun. And turning the monster on him sounds like a LOT of fun. How would you do that?

A lot of you have suggested that I solve this OOC. I'd rather not. As you've pointed out, he has done nothing wrong, and adressing it directly makes the problem bigger than it is (or ought to be!). So I'd rather try to challenge him and myself with new enemies and surroundings.

Again, thank you all for feedback and suggestions, much appreciated. In the end you may make a decent DM out of me!

Edit: OH, forgot: Erikun - thank you for finding that scroll lenght answer - nope, it solves nothing. Thanks for looking it up though.

/Harlot

[Segev]

There's a spell or psionic power that explicitly hijacks summons. I can't remember its name (it's something like "steal summon" or the like, I think), but I think it's in either Comp Psi or Spell Compendium. I usually consider it a worthless spell, because it relies on facing enemies who have and use summons (rather than just summoning them, yourself), but it's custom-made for this kind of challenge.

Consider, too, a Spellthief who works for a Conjuror who is actually lower level than the party, but has heard of this PC's predilection and hires the Spellthief to steal scrolls so the Conjuror can try them out. Maybe Aristocrat 1/Conjuror 3 or something. To explain how he's paying a Spellthief.

I would also take a look at the Summon Monster lists to which he has access. Look over the monsters at his disposal. Think on how you would use them if you could command their services, and in what sorts of situations.

Don't fall into the trap of making "solve it my way or not at all" puzzles, but do design puzzles with a planned-for solution or two that uses an under-utilized monster's unique capabilities. You say you're bored of the uncreativity, but it's clear he really likes summoning. So set up some of your encouragement to be creative by rewarding summoning that is used creatively. Summoning a giant spider can get a party up over a wall, or ferry them across a web. A regenerating gingerbread wall might not regenerate if its material is consumed, but there's too much there for the PCs to manage to eat. Summoned giant birds or the like might be able to eat their way through. Celestial Wolves can be summoned for their tracking capabilities, perhaps.

Have a Batman wizard as an enemy, to further encourage further creativity. Demonstrate what this kind of thing can do, and let the player realize he can do it too.

[erikun]

If I may offer a suggestion?


One issue here may actually be that although he is an experinced player, he's never really been challenged by any former DM - he doesn't optimize. Which may explain why he doesn't just make himself a wand of SM XXX.

he's just playing his wizard as a summoner, and making scrolls for that, and that is absolutely ok and fair.

3) Did I mention his lack of imagination? Its just ... wizards have SO much potential ... and he is happy summoning away all day, every day... and yes, I would probably be just as annoyed if he rolled up a fireball everytime the enemies approached. Same thing.
Might I suggest just letting him continue doing what he's doing?

It sounds like he's having fun. It sounds like the player is fine and the groups is fine with what he's doing. He gets into fights, he summons monsters like he enjoys doing. He gets into big fights, he pulls out his scrolls and feels like that downtime his character has spend scribing them has been really valuable to the team.

If anything, you might want to consider encouraging him to use his summons in more interesting ways, rather than change him from summoning to something else. I mean, most summons can fly and speak Celestial/Infernal. Tongues can work if the wizard doesn't know the language. Summon Monster III gives you access to elementals, which can do things like fly or pass through stone. Celestial Hippogriffs can carry riders. Why not give the occasional challenge that would be good for a summon to use? I'm not talking about something where they'd be manditory, but a large cliff to climb down (easily doable but will take several days) or needing to know what's on the other side of a wall (earth elemental).

Depending on how receptive your player is the DM ideas, you could even mention the possibilities to him. Just note that, once you alert the player to special abilities of some summons, then they'll likely pay a lot of attention to that in the future. It's one of the powerful aspects of a summoner.

[Phaederkiel]

I understand from quite a few of your comments that I ought not view the wizard amassing scrolls as a problem; - that the caster level is lower anyways, that the gap in XP and eventually levels will soon be felt by the PC and that making scrolls/having scrolls is pretty much what you'd expect a wizard to do. So I'll try to develop a healthier attitude towards it. I must admit that I like to push the party to points where they're low on both HP and spells (I am evil like that) and the latter is harder when the wizard has a big stash of scrolls...



Unfortunately, it is not his problem. It is sooner or later your problem, because when it gets unfun 'cuz he gimped his mage, he will probably see you as the source. Hey, you did allow him making all those scrolls, didn't you?!




This I will do. Flying enemies are fun. And turning the monster on him sounds like a LOT of fun. How would you do that?


the problem is that sm has such an incredible utility. Flying monsters, he has it. Aqua, he has it. If he is clever, he will use the Spell likes of the monsters to twart (is this a real english word? I am not sure...) many tricks of you.

I just finished a game where another player played a greenbound ashbound summoning focused druid. And you would be surprised how many oh so different problems a simple eagle can solve. (especcially if that eagle can drag whole trees away since it has twentysomething strength. But anyway.)

I love the solution segev offers:


but do design puzzles with a planned-for solution or two that uses an under-utilized monster's unique capabilities. You say you're bored of the uncreativity, but it's clear he really likes summoning. So set up some of your encouragement to be creative by rewarding summoning that is used creatively. Summoning a giant spider can get a party up over a wall, or ferry them across a web. A regenerating gingerbread wall might not regenerate if its material is consumed, but there's too much there for the PCs to manage to eat. Summoned giant birds or the like might be able to eat their way through. Celestial Wolves can be summoned for their tracking capabilities, perhaps.



this takes into account what he will do if he is clever. And makes more of the monsters than meatshields. You could play on the age-old question "do I summon the same elemental every time?". And one of his summons could try to strike him a deal. see malconvoker.

I'd perhaps just send some demon in instead of whatever he wants to summon. Getting wrong, or dangerous summons is a nicestory hook anyway, I think.



Again, thank you all for feedback and suggestions, much appreciated. In the end you may make a decent DM out of me!

/Harlot

I think I repeat myself, yet: I'd play with you :)

[Psyren]

The rules of spell delay (cast, wait one round - monsters pops forth) and caster level have been followed whenever I asked/checked up on him. And the player is fair, though not very familiar with all aspects of spellcasting. He would not cheat intentionally. (But has done so unintentionally in the past, specifically messing up the craft rules. Sigh.) One issue here may actually be that although he is an experinced player, he's never really been challenged by any former DM - he doesn't optimize. Which may explain why he doesn't just make himself a wand of SM XXX.

Insist on the cast time. It's an expected and major drawback of summoning, and a few arrows to the gut or a friendly grapple will make him think twice about doing it in so kneejerk a fashion. (The mage who is standing there chanting is a very obvious threat, after all, even to enemies who don't know precisely what he's doing.) At the very least he may try casting invisibility or mirror image first; that's two rounds of the combat gone right there, and once he starts wasting resources on summons that are only active for 1 or 2 rounds per fight, he will start to rethink about his tactics. Plus it will speed up combat for you since the summons won't be on the field as long. It's win-win.

Another way to deal with the summoning itself is counterspelling. You can even use a specific counterspell (i.e. the same spell) for this - you know what spells he's always using, after all - which will let an enemy caster, even a weaker one, negate his summon without fail. There is also dispelling/dismissal, which basically has your enemy caster trade one of his standards for an entire round of the wizard player's actions. Obviously, this isn't ideal for the player. Specific counters have the additional advantage of actually rewarding him for casting something else - if they try to counterspell and he's not summoning they waste their action.

Others mentioned charming/dominating the summons; this is useful but tends to be a higher level tactic.


Another way to deal with his summons is the Protection from X line, which will hedge out summons and prevent them from making contact or attacking in melee. If the enemy is buffed with these, or a magic circle as someone recommended earlier in the thread, the summons will lose a lot of usefulness and the player will be forced to switch tactics.

Finally, the other noteworthy aspect of the cast time is that it assumes he has a whole full round available. If he is retrieving the scrolls from storage, that's a move action, so he is actually unable to start summoning until round 2 and it won't come out until round 3. (If you rule that the "start an action" standard action applies to 1-round as opposed to full-round casting times, he can drop it on round 2, but it will cost the standard from both rounds to do so.)



I must admit that it has been a real and probably mentally healthy wake-up call for me to realise that this may be a problem stemming from me - that, as Starmage and a few others have pointed out, the PC is really not doing anything wrong - he's just playing his wizard as a summoner, and making scrolls for that, and that is absolutely ok and fair.
I am mildly annoyed with myself, because I never saw it from that perspective: That my attitude is the real issue!

While there is nothing strictly wrong with him constantly summoning, you're there to have fun too. More to the point, one of your jobs is to challenge the PCs. Both of these goals can be accomplished with the same means - punishing one-trick pony tactics.

[some guy]

Also, retrieving a stored item is a moved action; so to cast a summoning spell from a scroll would cost 1 round + 1 move action. Might also be something to take into account.

One solution might be time-based adventure. If they're in a hurry there might not be enough time to craft scrolls. Even better, the player might burn through all the scrolls. Can't be done constantly of course, but every once in a while.

[Occasional Sage]

Also also, if you're crafting while afb (say, out adventuring) your eight hours nets you four hours of work. Basically, it's a hefty time tax for not having peace and quiet, an orderly desk, all your reference books right where you expect them....

[Harlot]

Hello again!

THIS:


If anything, you might want to consider encouraging him to use his summons in more interesting ways, rather than change him from summoning to something else. I mean, most summons can fly and speak Celestial/Infernal. Tongues can work if the wizard doesn't know the language. Summon Monster III gives you access to elementals, which can do things like fly or pass through stone. Celestial Hippogriffs can carry riders. Why not give the occasional challenge that would be good for a summon to use? I'm not talking about something where they'd be manditory, but a large cliff to climb down (easily doable but will take several days) or needing to know what's on the other side of a wall (earth elemental).

Depending on how receptive your player is the DM ideas, you could even mention the possibilities to him. Just note that, once you alert the player to special abilities of some summons, then they'll likely pay a lot of attention to that in the future. It's one of the powerful aspects of a summoner.
Segev says the same thing, and this approach is very constructive.
I will absolutely suggest that he summons monsters to solve puzzles etc and I will have fun thinking up stuff for them to face - win/win.

@psyren: I have used counterspelling successfully excactly as you say, using summon monster, worked perfectly. And have considered 'protection from X.' I will use that later, have already planned so.

@Some_guy:
I have added a time factor, they'll have to travel fast the next week, so no real downtime for scrolls, and a need for monsters to help them move faster.
I might also make a variation of Tuckers kobolds using whitespawn hordelings = flying creatures which they haven't handled too good in the past + continuous small attacks to make him use some of his scrolls.
I think we will be fine :-)


Also, if you're crafting while afb (say, out adventuring) your eight hours nets you four hours of work.
Are you sure? I always thought that any disturbance during rest would just add on extra hour of downtime, and then you may still craft for 8hrs... ?

@Phaederkiel: Thank you! And I AM looking into the Malconvoker. Interesting! I think I'll wait a few level before he's introduced though!

Thank you for helping and thank you for probably making me a better DM :-)
/Harlot

[Sith_Happens]

Also also, if you're crafting while afb (say, out adventuring) your eight hours nets you four hours of work. Basically, it's a hefty time tax for not having peace and quiet, an orderly desk, all your reference books right where you expect them....

Source please.

[jedipotter]

So, apart from making him chase down exotic spell components, do any of you have any obvious ideas as to how to stop this continuous scrollmaking?


1. Target the scrolls! Now sure many will say it is ''unfair'' or something like that, but should take a book store into combat, you should expect some damage.

So make your game less "Oh no you fail your save and fall in the lava and take 1d8 damage, then climb out" and more like "You fall in the lava and take 22 damage and all paper, cloth and wood on your body is obliterated(no save).

You can also add in things like kobold theives, sundering and disarming scrolls, monsters with grab and so forth.


2.Make the adventuring day longer. How does he stop the adventuring day anyway? If the adventure starts at 8am and the group travels along until 4pm and then stops? Well, don't have the whole world time stop. Have the attack on the castle at 6pm. Well, looks like he can't stop and rest today. Have events happen 24 hours a day. And if the player wants to sit around, all the better(The rest of the group goes and fights the dragon, gets a ton of loot and xp....while you sit there and make scrolls for the next couple hours."

[TuggyNE]

So make your game less "Oh no you fail your save and fall in the lava and take 1d8 damage, then climb out" and more like "You fall in the lava and take 22 damage and all paper, cloth and wood on your body is obliterated(no save).

Lava does not do 1d8 damage (contact is 2d6, and "falling in" does 20d6 per round and 10d6 per round for 1d3 rounds afterward). So this particular example is highly unlikely to work well, since if the character falls in, they're probably already thoroughly dead. (Unless they have sufficient fire resistance, in which case their carried objects are also protected; there's a reason objects have hardness and HP, and it's to prevent "no-save, auto-destroy" effects from being unfair.)

[ericgrau]

Sounds like an ooc issue. SMIII isn't that great assuming the base monster list, and higher level scrolls are costly.

If it's taking too long then force him to print out all monster stats ahead of time or else he cannot use that monster. This will be helpful: http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/monsters.htm

If he has something changing the monster stats, force him to copy-paste into Word or Excel or another office software and then edit it to match.

The casting time does make summons very easy to disrupt with ranged damage, and any intelligent foes with a member with spellcraft should instantly shout it out and respond. Every foe should always have ranged weapons at least as a backup, even if he's melee focused. At low levels thrown weapons or a sling make good backup ranged weapons for melee. And this isn't picking on summoners. This is common sense for 100 types of enemies. Counterspelling OTOH is highly contrived unless foes are psychic.

He can scribe multiple spells onto the same scroll and he can have it pre-drawn before combat, so drawing time is more a book-keeping non-issue than anything.